DescentBB

The new ATI X800 series of cards (and soon, all proper 9XXX cards) feature "Temporal Anti Aliasing" which employs different sampling patterns on alternate frames, to effectively double the FSAA level with the same hit as half the normal AA setting.

The only issue is that V-Sync must be enabled for this to work correctly. You have to see one frame sampled in X pattern, follwed by one frame sampled in Y pattern for the effect to work.

Don't be fooled, there's nothing wrong with V-Syncing a game, provided you aren't getting a whole lot more frames than your refresh rate.

The upshot of this "TAA" is that it requires 60 FPS to be effective. If the frame rate drops below about 60, then the image quality would start to degrade instead of improve.

So what have ATI done? Well, if your FPS drops below 60, then TAA is disabled, and regular FSAA switches on until the framerate climbs back above 60 FPS.

What a great idea!

Why has no one done this before???

It's a no-brainer for goodness sake!

TAA should not be the only effect which is framerate dependent.

Video card drivers should allow you to rank effects, and place cutoff limits where you want things enabled above a certain limit, and disabled below a certain limit.

This would be a HUGE eye-candy feature, and be completely FREE.

So, you have your settings such that when things are hot and heavy, and there's big motion, and lots of it on-screen, the FPS stays acceptable, and when you cruise-out and just take in the scenery, and the FPS climbs, then the card will start adding eye-candy willy-nilly.

Can't wait to upgrade now!

From my old, OCed-to-hell R8500....

Youre not even gonna really notice anything in a fast paced game of ANYTHING.

Whats the big deal? I cant see one, really.

aaaaaaaaaahh MobiTroll© glad you had time to crawl out from under the bridge to look around(not far but at least you did).

You still love to exploit the little things in life that make no difference to the rest of us folk.

G'Day!

PS: Nvidia öwñz Jöö stop beating the drum

its ansing some one to tell the diff between 100 and 160 fps

u really cant tell at all

Actually it is a very good idea, and as Moby said it can lead to much more configurable, "smarter" graphics cards. One improvement on this feature that will be necessary is a high/low watermark policy instead a one-point cut-off. This is just one of many tricks they can borrow from the OS field.

talk about a troll there bubba boy

Bah -- get a card that can handle the load and don't need tricks to keep the fps up.

[Grendel] wrote:Bah -- get a card that can handle the load and don't need tricks to keep the fps up.

Depends on what "load" you're talking about. Can't exactly make a card and then tell people "okay guys don't make any more games to stress it k?".

s. wrote:talk about a troll there bubba boy

exactly....thank you s.

considering that ati has let 5 driver releases through with out working gamma......I'd really like to see if they get this right

This doesn't really impress me off hand, but I don't keep up with the techno limbo.

If you're getting 60+ FPS, couldn't you stand to lose the performance of upping the FSAA another notch anyways? Without having to deal with your levels of FSAA doubling and halving back and forth during gameplay? Sorry, but this sounds more like a gimmick to me.

And, yeah, shouldn't FSAA in itself be approaching performance-free-ness with next generation cards to begin with?

It's not that FSAA is doubling, but instead the method of FSAA changes from a straightforward one to one with source pixels moving around so that the picture is cooler looking or something.

Gimmick? Sure. But the vid cards need something nowadays to make them stand out feature wise.

Edit: It might be worth noting, but "performance-free" is sort of a misnomer. There may be no difference performance wise of the entire system, but that just means that there are limitations elsewhere that the particular card feature doesn't actually drop the framerate. Taken alone, it does require more processing power than without, always.

Always lovely to hear your thoughts Bubba - it's like the sound of water flushing down the toilet: very relaxing.

Oscar Wilde said it best bro: 'Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt

Just like ALL other GFx card features, Frame Dependent Scene Rendering *WILL* become a feature of new GFx cards. This will allow game builders an unparalleled ability to add eye-candy to their games without fear of bogging down machines which can't continuously render all of it, and yet provide amazing eyecandy when the frame rate climbs to acceptable levels.

Mobius wrote:Always lovely to hear your thoughts Bubba

I'm sorry to say it's only dry humor do you still love me? ~

It's not that FSAA is doubling, but instead the method of FSAA changes from a straightforward one to one with source pixels moving around so that the picture is cooler looking or something.

In that case, that seems like an even worse scenario! One can only reap the benefits of increased FPS so long as one's FPS in any given instant is higher than 60 to begin with! In fact, this would seem to be capable of broadening the FPS gulf experienced in games, since non-action scenes would be experiencing increased FPS, whilst action scenes would remain unaffacted, just as low as before, ergo having the FPS plummet even greater between non-action and action areas of the game.

Jeff250 wrote:In fact, this would seem to be capable of broadening the FPS gulf experienced in games, since non-action scenes would be experiencing increased FPS, whilst action scenes would remain unaffacted, just as low as before, ergo having the FPS plummet even greater between non-action and action areas of the game.

Ummmm.... what?

Over 60fps => turn on fancy AA
under 60fps => same as always.

If anything when it's over 60fps it'll be lower with the option enabled than with it disabled, ergo the delta framerate would be less.

a dollar says this will turn into ATi vs nVidia.. heh..

Also, wouldn't you notice when it switches from AA to normal?

dollar says it wont....

The new ATI X800 series of cards (and soon, all proper 9XXX cards) feature "Temporal Anti Aliasing" which employs different sampling patterns on alternate frames, to effectively double the FSAA level with the same hit as half the normal AA setting.

It's not that FSAA is doubling, but instead the method of FSAA changes from a straightforward one to one with source pixels moving around so that the picture is cooler looking or something.

Over 60fps => turn on fancy AA
under 60fps => same as always.

Whatever this mysterious beastie really is, if it enhances image quality, I believe my original concern applies. If it enhances speed, I believe my second concern applies. If it enhances neither, then I shall write a new concern.

It's not terribly hard to understand dude.

When the game is running at a fast speed, the card essentially says "oh look, extra processing power I can use" and improves the image quality.

If, as you suggested, you just upped the FSAA quality you get the performance hit always, instead of when it doesn't matter.

I'm fully aware of the concept, despite your cryptic responses! But my concern is that the image quality (on what I would assume to be on a large scale, if not, what's the point!) could dramatically flip back and forth during gameplay and look quite queer (see my first post).

It appeared as if you attempted to explain it by either denying or down-playing enhanced Temporal FSAA image quality by saying that it doesn't (in seeming contradiction with the first sentence of this topic) effectively double FSAA, it just uses a different method of FSAA. From this, there's two different conclusions that could be arrived at, that this alternative method offers improved quality over traditional FSAA, that it offers improved speed over traditional FSAA, or both, hence my post offering both alternatives.

Your clarification was welcome, but I don't appreciate the attitude.

If, as you suggested, you just upped the FSAA quality you get the performance hit always, instead of when it doesn't matter.

I get the feeling that you are either not thoroughly reading my posts or that you are intentionally addressing issues that you know are rhetorical.

It's not that I don't like hearing myself speak, but now that we are seeing eye to eye, I would like to actually further pursue the issue of the level of image quality (in whatever respect) changing back and forth in midgame, if there is one, no?

It is indeed a different way of doing FSAA... the trick is, the sampling pattern changes every frame. Meaning that you'll get an illusion of higher FSAA due to different patterns 'flickering' on your screen on alternate frames.

The good thing is, this doesn't incur a performance hit *at all* so it can safely be enabled if you don't mind vsync.

Now, the reason that it doesn't get activated below vsync speeds is, the lower your framerate, the more easily you can actually *see* the patterns alternating, wich completely destroys the effect of higher FSAA, and actually worsens the image quality.

At high framerates the flickering between 2 different sampling patterns isn't visible due to the speed, so it appears as a good image quality improvement.
At low framerates otoh you can see the slight flickering and it'll actually seem worse.

Clear enough ?

Jeff, I'm not going to argue about image quality enhancements because they are inherently subjective. Besides, the feature isn't permanent; you can turn it off and on.

Why are you arguing so hard against it? Don't like it, don't turn it on.

put a fork in it, it's done

Now that PMs are here, take it there..