DescentBB

The secular face of Egypt's revolution is already being thrown off:

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5020.htm

In a special mention of the Palestinian issue, Al-Qaradhawi asked the Egyptian army to open wide the Rafah crossing and to pray for the re-conquest of Jerusalem by the Muslims, so that he and the Muslims could pray in security at Al-Aqsa Mosque. This part of his sermon was cheered and applauded by the crowd.

The Google exec that was the "face" of secular revolution was thrown off the stage (figuratively and literally):

Google executive Wael Ghonim, who emerged as a leading voice in Egypt's uprising, was barred from the stage in Tahrir Square on Friday by security guards, an AFP photographer said. Ghonim tried to take the stage in Tahrir, the epicentre of anti-regime protests that toppled President Hosni Mubarak, but men who appeared to be guarding influential Muslim cleric Yusuf al-Qaradawi barred him from doing so.

Ghonim, who was angered by the episode, then left the square with his face hidden by an Egyptian flag.

Wael Ghonim will be sent packing just as the secular 'revolutionaries' of Iran's 1979 takeover were.

Qaradawi and the muslim brotherhood will become more politically empowered shortly. I wish I were wrong, but it's a good bet the radicalization of Egypt is strongly underway.

History unfolds:

War is coming.

Why would war come? I can understand being concerned with the situation in Egypt but I do not follow your chain of logic here.

null0010 wrote:Why would war come?

Because TB won’t be happy until it does.

.

null0010 wrote:Why would war come? I can understand being concerned with the situation in Egypt but I do not follow your chain of logic here.

I seldom like or care for TB's threads but I agree with him. War is coming. but I think it is for different reasons than TB does

CUDA wrote:

null0010 wrote:Why would war come? I can understand being concerned with the situation in Egypt but I do not follow your chain of logic here.

I seldom like or care for TB's threads but I agree with him. War is coming. but I think it is for different reasons than TB does

Would you care to explain these reasons?

I don't see that happening TB. I see the mideast burning and dominos falling. This is the mideast's chance for democracy.

Bee

Wishful thinking won't make something true.

Because TB won’t be happy until it does.

Certainly not. It will make us all suffer. What doesn't hit us with direct violence will harm us gravely in economic terms. Everything you eat, wear and take shelter in will cost that much more to maintain and deliver.

As if things weren't getting bad enough.

null0010 wrote:

CUDA wrote:

null0010 wrote:Why would war come? I can understand being concerned with the situation in Egypt but I do not follow your chain of logic here.

I seldom like or care for TB's threads but I agree with him. War is coming. but I think it is for different reasons than TB does

Would you care to explain these reasons?

3 reasons

1. Biblical Prophesy. you might not believe in it, I do

2. The Iranian Constitution calls for the destruction of Israel, and with the Muslim brotherhood / Hamas / Iran poised to gain power in Egypt. it seems like Israel will have Shia rule on Both side calling for their destruction.

3. the Arab-Israeli conflict has been raging for 4000+ years, don't be naive and think that its going to stop. it won't until one side is wiped out.

ThunderBunny wrote:Iran #2

The world is just full of surprises, isn't it? ^_~

null0010 wrote:Why would war come? I can understand being concerned with the situation in Egypt but I do not follow your chain of logic here.

Why not?

Bet51987 wrote:I see the mideast burning and dominos falling. This is the mideast's chance for democracy.

I seem to recall this being one of the major reasons behind the Iraq war -- giving the rest of the middle east some hope for a secular democracy. Funny that the people most against the Iraq war are the ones most hopeful about Egypt's revolution, while the most ardent Bush supporters now think revolution in the middle east is going to lead to war. We go from an R president to a D president and all of a sudden, everyone's opinion flips...

Really, this could go either way. It depends on a lot of factors, including how the US government steps up to meet the challenges ahead.

Lothar wrote: Funny that the people most against the Iraq war are the ones most hopeful about Egypt's revolution, while the most ardent Bush supporters now think revolution in the middle east is going to lead to war. We go from an R president to a D president and all of a sudden, everyone's opinion flips...

Even with the qualifier I disagree. Its not insignificant that Iraq was a soverign nation, and it is very significant that in Egypt was home grown. I really don't see Bush/Obama factoring in most Americans opinions (even on those most agains), on the morality of invading vs. supporting another nation; and I don't think a "flip" is at all hypcritical.

If anything, I think Americans are most often guilty of over emphasizing their role in the world. If Egypt is successful, or if Egypt fails, Bush and Obama share the same amount of responsibility....

....which is almost nothing.

Lothar wrote:Really, this could go either way. It depends on a lot of factors, including how the US government steps up to meet the challenges ahead.

Lothar wrote:Funny that the people most against the Iraq war are the ones most hopeful about Egypt's revolution, while the most ardent Bush supporters now think revolution in the middle east is going to lead to war. We go from an R president to a D president and all of a sudden, everyone's opinion flips..

I think you just answered your own statement. Obama is a HUGE unknown. how will he handle these events? so far I've not seen anything that would instill my confidence in him. he should have kept his mouth shut when this all started. by telling the people of Egypt "we hear you" he put himself in a lose lose situation. if Mubarak stayed in power. he strained the U.S. Egypt relation. if Mubarak stepped down then Iran would do just what they did yesterday. saying this whole even was orchestrated by the U.S. his best option was to remain Silent and she how this played out and then speak.

Well, first thing I would quit talking about is troop withdrawals. We poisoned the well and made them drink the water, now our only hope is a persistent presence in the area. That's the main reason that region is in a mess. ★■◆● talkers traipsing in out of nowhere, stirring the pot and then walking off whistling like they didn't do anything. If democracy is to spread throughout the middle east, America has to be in it for the long haul now.

flip wrote:Well, first thing I would quit talking about is troop withdrawals. We poisoned the well and made them drink the water, now our only hope is a persistent presence in the area. That's the main reason that region is in a mess. **** talkers traipsing in out of nowhere, stirring the pot and then walking off whistling like they didn't do anything. If democracy is to spread throughout the middle east, America has to be in it for the long haul now.

I agree but you have one major problem in that region, and until it is dealt with Democracy will never take hold in the Middle east. Iran.

if we can help topple the Government of Iran from the inside then MAYBE Democracy has a chance

No, I'm with you and your earlier statement. I think all this has done is brought more instability, not democracy. There's too many factions there and they are way too damn used to violence. Whoever doesn't get their way isn't just going to give up and go home. Maybe I'm wrong. You got to think why these people believe the way they do. Everyone sees it restrictive from the outside but then these people move here or elsewhere and self-impose the same restrictions. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Iraq under Saddam was essentially a secular government, a dictatorship. Dealing with Iran or Egypt is gonna be a whole different animal.

These uprisings have little to do with democracy and everything to do with economic conditions. That dictatorships and monarchies are overthrown as a result is a side effect.

People holding signs and chanting for democracy is all well and good- but our idea of democracy is far different from theirs. Political opportunists like the muslim brotherhood will take hold in an otherwise disorganized and anarchic dispersal of governments. What seems to be happening is that there will merely be a changing of the guard- from one tyranny to another. The only difference is that these new leaders will be theocratic in nature and much more hostile to the western world.

All of these changes will mean little in the way of improving the lives of the middle eastern peoples involved- in fact things will probably get much worse for them. The already bad economic conditions will worsen with skiddish foreign investors and tourists being driven away by the unstable conditions. There is little reason for foreigners to stay with no guarantee of safety for themselves or their investments in the countries involved.

Trying not to be too simplistic, but the whole economic problem stems from the fact that even world wide there is still a finite amount of money, which has been scooped up into a pile and hoarded :

People curse the man who hoards grain, but blessing crowns him who is willing to sell.

This is what is occurring in the world of world finance right now.

flip wrote:Trying not to be too simplistic, but the whole economic problem stems from the fact that even world wide there is still a finite amount of money, which has been scooped up into a pile and hoarded :

People curse the man who hoards grain, but blessing crowns him who is willing to sell.

This is what is occurring in the world of world finance right now.

Money is just a score card. If people create markets for their services and product they start to accumulate higher scores than dirt farmers and peasants. No matter how wide that gap is between the two types of people the producers and successful workers shouldn't be punished for their good fortune and policy that is built on the false premise that the successful are somehow evil is the demagoguery of western politicians, dictators and zealots.

It is the elitists in government that tax their way into wealth on the backs of the workers and producers who should be lifting up the lower classes with the taxes they collect and modest reasonable policy instead of lifting up their own elite existence, selling favors to the rich for support and hypocritically claiming the workers and producers haven't done enough to help but really only care about effecting the change that secures their own power and personal wealth. It is they and the warlords and dictators and communist and socialist and fascist governments who are the ones who bring about these uprisings not the inherant characteristics of capitalism or economic conditions. The pimps are getting their just deserts. Here in america the uprisings are civil, over there not so much.
you can bet the ones rising up aren't looking to stay poor and oppressed and want to make everyone live on their level, they want some of the good stuff too...they want their own money to hoard and when they get some they inevitably will!

hey, who deleted my comment

Secular government in Egypt?

http://www.vancouversun.com/technology/ ... z1H3vdHFUw

Hundreds of Islamists stone Egypt's ElBaradei

You know something's fundamentally wrong when 'they the people' are fighting for something secular. ^_~

NOT a good sign:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 60,00.html

Where is Egypt going? Watch the every day, new normal goings on- and what is "acceptable" changing.

Is Egypt Air owned and/or operated by the Egyptian government?

Not usually a fan of Glenn Beck- but he makes some good points:

I think the thing to keep your eye on is Syria. If Syria flips towards democracy then the world may have real hope.

I doubt that any “democracy” that forms in the middle east, will resemble anything we could recognize.

Not in the near future anyway.

Taking out one major player like Iraq is just asking for others to get involved, It's really not in america's best interest to pick fights with everyone they can.

Well it took around 45ish years of constant bordered influence for Soviet Russia to adopt any kind of democracy. I can't imagine how long it would take the Middle East to embrace it.

It won't happen in my opinion, Nor should it be expected to conform to anyone but their own governing opinions.

Muslim Brotherhood advocates Egyptian modesty police
By DAVID E. MILLER / THE MEDIA LINE
04/04/2011 09:17

Call adds to concerns among liberals that the country is going Islamic after attacks on Muslim mystic tombs, Christians.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=215050

The hopes for a secular liberal democracy are fading faster than null's Pokemon poster in the sunlight.

ThunderBunny wrote:The hopes for a secular liberal democracy are fading faster than null's Pokemon poster in the in the sunlight.

Really?

Man, you gotta move that thing to another wall before you lose all of Pikachu's yellow.

ThunderBunny wrote:

Muslim Brotherhood advocates Egyptian modesty police
By DAVID E. MILLER / THE MEDIA LINE
04/04/2011 09:17

Call adds to concerns among liberals that the country is going Islamic after attacks on Muslim mystic tombs, Christians.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=215050

The hopes for a secular liberal democracy are fading faster than null's Pokemon poster in the sunlight.

way to take a personal jab at him, dude.

Ferno is right. Watch the personal stuff, guys, even if it seems like an innocuous friendly jab (which I believe this was), it doesn't always read that way.