DescentBB

Some people just don't do math anymore...

Math is an ★■◆● because it often gives me headache.

And nowadays wwe have our computerz and the internetz that can do math for us , but yeah likewise it would make the brain lesser active, but then again at least that brain matter can be put to use in other things, like playing Descent or Freespace or something else

In my current college math class, they don't allow calculators. First college math class I have had do that - at first it was a little difficult, but I appreciate it.

That's good!
Mental math doesn't take genius, though I'm sure it helps to be one. I've got this book that basically gives you tricks to work out different kinds of math problems. Like working on the number from left to right is easier in some cases. I really should work on my mental math more often, though my classes have us use calculators for everything...

Good show.

I need my calculator.

Interestingly, we actually have a few mathematicians around here.

From my personal experience, it's good to know how to use a quality technical calculator, but over-reliance can be a problem. In early college, I had to break myself of some bad calculator habits from high school.

Of course, by the time you get into graduate math work, they're nearly entirely useless.

Foil wrote:Interestingly, we actually have a few mathematicians around here.

From my personal experience, it's good to know how to use a quality technical calculator, but over-reliance can be a problem. In early college, I had to break myself of some bad calculator habits from high school.

Of course, by the time you get into graduate math work, they're nearly entirely useless.

I don't keep track of number in my head well. I can't remember dates, addresses, etc. well. It makes it difficult for me to do all that much math in my head, because after a while I forget the numbers that I was using along the way. Give me a sheet of paper, and I can do lots of calculations by hand.

I had a class last semester in which all of the exams were close book closed notes on calculator. I had to spruce up on my memory of calculus to be ready for the exams. I'd say it was a good thing for me.

The particles (and wave fields) of your body will still obey the laws of quantum mechanics. You don't do math. Math does you.

Burlyman wrote:You don't do math. Math does you.

Heh, I may use that quote someday.

Math: Bring it on!!!

That was my one really strong subject in School.

Recently forgot a calculator to a maths class. Then I had to remember how to do division.
I'm glad we have calculators because 3/7 has many decimals... (yes, I had to do that on paper)

sdfgeoff wrote:Recently forgot a calculator to a maths class. Then I had to remember how to do division.
I'm glad we have calculators because 3/7 has many decimals... (yes, I had to do that on paper)

Usually you only have to go to like the one hundredths position? Or perhaps the thousandths, and then round the one hundredths.

In one of my classes we're finding the intersection of lines on a graph. To check my work I wrote this up:
>>> [[x,2*x+3] for x in frange.frange(0,100,0.01) if 2*x+3==-0.5*x+7]
[[1.6000000000000001, 6.2000000000000002]]

frange is a script i grabbed that lets me use range() with decimal increments.

Yes, there are much easier alternatives on the net, but I like to use python whenever I can.

heh... I bought an awesome calculator only to find out that I can't use it anymore in schools. lol -.-

back to tha old skool
no graphing calc in school for me

Burlyman wrote:heh... I bought an awesome calculator only to find out that I can't use it anymore in schools. lol -.-

back to tha old skool
no graphing calc in school for me

Which?

that's so dumb. If you're a teacher trying to teach concepts, how you apply a concept shouldn't matter. This is a problem with our public school system...

Isaac wrote:If you're a teacher trying to teach concepts, how you apply a concept shouldn't matter.

Sorry, Isaac, but you're wrong here.

Teaching something conceptual is often undermined by the use of automated calculation. Students typically won't bother learning the idea if they can easily work a calculator to get the answer.

Teachers who restrict calculator usage are right to do so in that case.

Sure, depends on the situation.

Foil wrote:

Isaac wrote:If you're a teacher trying to teach concepts, how you apply a concept shouldn't matter.

Sorry, Isaac, but you're wrong here.

Teaching something conceptual is often undermined by the use of automated calculation. Students typically won't bother learning the idea if they can easily work a calculator to get the answer.

Teachers who restrict calculator usage are right to do so in that case.

I agree, in my opinion, the line starts somewhere in the middle of calculus. Once you're getting into advanced calculus, differential equations, linear algebra, etc.... I think using math tools save you a lot of time, without much damage to your learning. So, I'd say that calculators are unnecessary for just about any course taught in high school.

Maybe the reason I'm so fuzzy on diff eq is that my teacher depended on Maple too much.

exactly, depends on the situation.

If I use python to graph something, not only am I doing it faster I have to understand the concept. Then I can go further and apply the function to anything I need to use it with. If you take away my computer, what good is the math concept to me? There's little on pencil and paper that requires me doing thousands of calculations. My computer, on the other hand, relies on me doing that.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, in general, the computer can make math concepts more relevant to daily life. Like making a game or work app can require any kind of math function. Math was invented to fill a need, so I argue it's easier to learn when I have the need for a concept. In this day and age, there's more 'need' when you're talking to a computer.

I have a feeling the way we currently teach math will change...

wow. this thread reminds me of the old TI (or were they HP) programmable calculators we had that used these little insertable cards that you programmed on. Good times.

Isaac wrote:I have a feeling the way we currently teach math will change...

It already has.

The folks here who were in school in the '60s or before will probably remember math classes as having lots and lots of computational 'drills' (e.g. speed drills, etc.).

Folks in school during the '70s and '80s might remember some of the early wacky attempts at conceptual "new math".

I think we actually have a pretty good concept/computation balance now, although the education system is broken in many other ways.

There's always wacky new ways of teaching. You're too quick to deflect ideas out side the norm and possibly your comfort zone.

random example:
There's proof that students trying to teach each other works better than just a professor lecturing. It requires each student individually attempt to understand the concept to being arguing and explaining among each other.

You argue there's a nice modern balance between exercise and concept teaching. I think you mean it's an improvement. I'm just saying there's a possibility a new method of teaching math should be tried. Why shouldn't there be?

Isaac wrote:You're too quick to deflect ideas out side the norm and possibly your comfort zone.

random example:
There's proof that students trying to teach each other works better than just a professor lecturing. It requires each student individually attempt to understand the concept to being arguing and explaining among each other.

Ha, that's not new at all, Isaac. I personally used that method nearly ten years ago, and teachers have been using it long before that.

Don't assume I'm some old guy who refuses to do anything new. In fact, I'm quite the opposite - through high school, my math education was a 'throwback' heavy-calculation-drills experience, and it utterly failed at preparing me for collegiate work. If anything, I lean toward newer approaches.

----------

In any case, the point is (as Snoopy and others have also pointed out) is that computational aids sometimes need to be restricted, particularly in classes before Calculus. Students who complain, "that's dumb, I want my calculator" are trying to take shortcuts, and aren't going to learn much that way.

Note that I am NOT saying computational tools shouldn't be used. There are some very good methods and exercises out there which use computers and calculators to assist (Isaac, your python script might be one), and some of them are really fun. They simply need to be used in the right places, and restricted elsewhere.

I'm an engineer. I like to know how things work.

The point of teaching mathematics is to teach people how formulas/graphs/concepts work. In my opinion, memorization is just as much the lazy way as calculators, because both avoid the need to know why. That's why students teaching each other and students figuring out how to program solvers are both good learning methods- because you have a have a firm grasp on the mechanism to either explain it to someone else, or to teach a computer to do it.

If anything, people need to know mathematics because they need to know how to program the next generation of computers to do their computations for them. My take on python scripts and the like: if you understand the process well enough to program it, you're quite qualified to use the script instead of hand-calculating it. It's the guy who copies the script off the programmer that's in trouble.

The further you get into math, the more it is about understanding concepts and the less it is about performing operations... grade school students tend to want to get by with performing the operations without having to understand the concepts; which stunts their future ability to understand more advanced math concepts. At some point you have such a small understanding of the concepts that you don't even know how to properly control computer functions that do all of the operations for you.... much less do you have the ability to check the result against the "does that make sense" logic.

snoopy wrote:I'm an engineer. I like to know how things work.

The point of teaching mathematics is to teach people how formulas/graphs/concepts work. In my opinion, memorization is just as much the lazy way as calculators, because both avoid the need to know why. That's why students teaching each other and students figuring out how to program solvers are both good learning methods- because you have a have a firm grasp on the mechanism to either explain it to someone else, or to teach a computer to do it.

If anything, people need to know mathematics because they need to know how to program the next generation of computers to do their computations for them. My take on python scripts and the like: if you understand the process well enough to program it, you're quite qualified to use the script instead of hand-calculating it. It's the guy who copies the script off the programmer that's in trouble.

The further you get into math, the more it is about understanding concepts and the less it is about performing operations... grade school students tend to want to get by with performing the operations without having to understand the concepts; which stunts their future ability to understand more advanced math concepts. At some point you have such a small understanding of the concepts that you don't even know how to properly control computer functions that do all of the operations for you.... much less do you have the ability to check the result against the "does that make sense" logic.

x2

My wife and I are perfect examples of opposite sides of the spectrum. Well, maybe not me so much.

My wife went to public school, and memorized the formulas and operations, never how they work. She's pretty good at math when presented with problems, but not very good when she has to apply it in a real world application.

I was homeschooled (and blew off much of my math) - but several years later, now that I've gone back to school, I find that I need to know why to do certain things. And that desire has allowed me to figure things out (albeit sometimes more complicated) before I am instructed on a specific operation or formula for solving it.

One more thing. I agree with you Foil, but I was just clarifying my point. Sometimes I don't do a good job these posts.

Foil wrote:

Isaac wrote:If you're a teacher trying to teach concepts, how you apply a concept shouldn't matter.

Sorry, Isaac, but you're wrong here.

Teaching something conceptual is often undermined by the use of automated calculation. Students typically won't bother learning the idea if they can easily work a calculator to get the answer.

Teachers who restrict calculator usage are right to do so in that case.

Yeah I had the TI-89 Titanium Edition Then the name wasn't so cool anymore after the establishment™ demoted it to shelf status so it can collect dust. x_x
I think the way math is taught in schools is too slow anyway. Take arithmetic for example... ^_~

I made a program to do gradient, divergence, and curl ^_^

Has anyone else here ever had an interest in Sumerian mathematics? Or, even later, Egyptian and Babylonian math? All very interesting! I hand picked the topic for a research paper and there's tons of cool info in the databases!

It seems like most numbers were expressed in the form of a calculation rather than the numbers (the answer) themselves. Someone would just say, give me 3^3*2+1 shells. ...sexagesmially of course...

neh I'm racist against the sumerians, ancient egyptians, and the babylonians [not really]