DescentBB

Drove my Chevy to the levee and it was glow'n green.....

Well with the explosion at one of Japans reactor buildings and God only knows how long for a melt-down to occur, i don't suppose we'll be hearing from the Green's about how we should start building more reactors here. I guess we'll be hearing more of Palins mantra, "Drill Baby Drill" since at least oil spills can be cleaned up and don't change organisms into mutant freaks. For those of you living on the west coast please post here when you see a glowing cloud that came drifting in from Japan way.

1. You've turned something terrible and recent into a joke.
2. The gas released was minimal (the gas you produce has polluted more).

You obviously never heard the term "Gallows Humor". Go troll somewhere else.

Yeah, wouldn't want to trash up your high quality thread...

Get up on wrong side of bed did you?

I just don't like what you posted.

"The blast raised fears of a meltdown at the power facility, 240 km (150 miles) north of Tokyo, as officials scrambled to contain what could be the worst nuclear disaster since the Chernobyl explosion in 1986 that shocked the world.

However, experts said Japan should not expect a repeat of Chernobyl. They said pictures of mist above the plant suggested only small amounts of radiation had been expelled as part of measures to ensure its stability, far from the radioactive clouds Chernobyl spewed out 25 years ago"

Sounds reassuring but:

"Japan's Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters the nuclear reaction facility was surrounded by a steel storage machine, which was itself surrounded by a concrete building.

"This concrete building collapsed. We learnt that the storage machine inside did not explode," he said"

so the concrete outer shell is rubble and all that stands to keep the radiation inside is the steal inner shell. Why do I not feel comforted?

It's a terrible situation, which I don't expect anyone to find any level of comfort in. Though I think they're doing a good job in handling the issue. I doubt any other country could do a better job, not that I'm knocking the U.S. or Texas.

I kept hearing about coolant pumps not working due to failures of their backup generators. Seems they did not have sufficient redundancy in their disaster plan.

We know way too little at this point as to what were the causes of the problems at these nuke plants. Was it just loss of power? was it physical damage to components? Was there actual physical damage to containment? Hey, let's put our crack news media on it .................. or, I'll just try to keep track of how many times they use the word "meltdown".

From my link in Bee's post:

"As with its counterparts in many other countries, Japan's nuclear industry has not exactly been renowned for openness and transparency.

Tepco itself has been implicated in a series of cover-ups down the years.

In 2002, the chairman and four other executives resigned, suspected of having falsified safety records at Tepco power stations.

Further examples of falsification were identified in 2006 and 2007.

In the longer term, Fukushima Daiichi raises several more very big questions, inside and outside Japan.

Given that this is not the first time a Japanese nuclear station has been hit by earthquake damage, is it wise to build such stations along the east coast, given that such a seismically active zone lies just offshore?"

woodchip wrote:Well with the explosion at one of Japans reactor buildings and God only knows how long for a melt-down to occur, i don't suppose we'll be hearing from the Green's about how we should start building more reactors here.

Build more nuclear reactors here.

woodchip wrote:Drove my Chevy to the levee and it was glow'n green.....

Well with the explosion at one of Japans reactor buildings and God only knows how long for a melt-down to occur, i don't suppose we'll be hearing from the Green's about how we should start building more reactors here. I guess we'll be hearing more of Palins mantra, "Drill Baby Drill" since at least oil spills can be cleaned up and don't change organisms into mutant freaks. For those of you living on the west coast please post here when you see a glowing cloud that came drifting in from Japan way.

You've obviously not heard of all the baby dolphins dying and washing ashore in the gulf. The ocean bottom is covered with a toxic sludge layer inches thick consisting of an oil, dispersant mix, and those toxins will move higher into the food chain, eventually into animals we consume. Oh but wait, we all can eat farmed shrimp and tilapia from Asia, that are raised in a different type of dirty, sewage poisoned water. $h*t!

As for the radioactive plume, your right about that. Us poor slobs on the west coast are right downwind in the jet stream. We've been dosed before, when the Ruskies were testing atomic bombs in the late 1950's, early 1960's. Not something we need right now. Of course, everyone in the Midwest got it with our boys testing their toys too. And with that hydrogen explosion that destroyed the reactor building yesterday, a meltdown may be inevitable. Things have gotten too hot in the reactor and the zinc casings are reacting with water, making hydrogen. Next step, melty, melty zinc casings and fuel pellets.

Since when do the greenies want nuclear power? Still have that waste problem to deal with. And drill baby drill is no solution either. Natural gas production by using fracking causes it's own set of problems, namely chemicals and natural gas getting into people's well water. Nice, tap water that either poisons you or explodes in your house! Oh and don't forget that nasty lake of coal ash sludge that recently burst through it's earthen dam, which the company wasn't bothering to deal with, and polluted miles and miles of people's land.

tunnelcat wrote:You've obviously not heard of all the baby dolphins dying and washing ashore in the gulf. The ocean bottom is covered with a toxic sludge layer inches thick consisting of an oil, dispersant mix, and those toxins will move higher into the food chain, eventually into animals we consume. Oh but wait, we all can eat farmed shrimp and tilapia from Asia, that are raised in a different type of dirty, sewage poisoned water. $h*t!

You knew I was going to comment on this, didn't you.

Please provide documentation that the baby dolphins died because of the oil spill. I agree it is a possible hypothesis, but documentation is still required before you can say anything with confidence about cause and effect. Is this NRDC report or this report about Samantha Joye the kind of report you are referencing? Note that Joye has reported that "a layer, as much as 10cm thick in places, of dead animals and oil" (emphases mine). This is hardly an "ocean bottom .. covered with a toxic sludge layer". The biota in the GoM are much more accustomed to the presence of petroleum materials that perhaps other bodies of water. I'll wait for the refereed scientific studies before I'm ready to make these kinds of expansive claims.

China Syndrome®

Isaac wrote:It's a terrible situation, which I don't expect anyone to find any level of comfort in. Though I think they're doing a good job in handling the issue. I doubt any other country could do a better job, not that I'm knocking the U.S. or Texas.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to mess with the U.S. or Texas, would we? @_@
quit eating my makeup.

Isaac wrote:It's a terrible situation, which I don't expect anyone to find any level of comfort in. Though I think they're doing a good job in handling the issue. I doubt any other country could do a better job, not that I'm knocking the U.S. or Texas.

What do you know, I agree w/ Isaac

dissent wrote:I kept hearing about coolant pumps not working due to failures of their backup generators. Seems they did not have sufficient redundancy in their disaster plan.

The tsunami took care of the diesel generators IIRC. The batteries did do the job, for a while at least. The explosion that blow the outer shell off reactor 1 was most likely caused by hydrogen that got vented when they tried to relieve pressure of the safety containment. Which would point to a partial meltdown and a breach of the pressure container that holds the fuel. Last I heard is a similar situation is going on in reactor 3 and a reactor at the Fukushima II site. So far the current situation is still "only" a level 4 accident, nothing too bad -- IF the cores get enough cooling. I will start to worry if there is a full meltdown followed by the explosion of a pressure container. I doubt tho that it would reach level 7 as seen in Chernobyl in '86, my guess would be around level 5. That's bad for Japan and maybe parts of asia but probably nothing to write home about in the americas or europe.

tunnelcat wrote:...

As for the radioactive plume, your right about that. Us poor slobs on the west coast are right downwind in the jet stream. We've been dosed before, when the Ruskies were testing atomic bombs in the late 1950's, early 1960's...

I always wondered what the hell happened to warp so many people out there on the left coast!

Will Robinson wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:...

As for the radioactive plume, your right about that. Us poor slobs on the west coast are right downwind in the jet stream. We've been dosed before, when the Ruskies were testing atomic bombs in the late 1950's, early 1960's...

I always wondered what the hell happened to warp so many people out there on the left coast!

The great mystery is solved.

In the world of nuclear disasters, Chernobyl was "Dukes of Hazzard hire Red Green to build a rocket car, attempt to jump over grandstand after downing a bottle of vodka. Twelve spectators killed; forest fire still burning." Bad engineering, bad process, a series of terrible decisions, and an eventual total loss of containment.

By comparison, this was "professional truck driver has heart attack, blows a tire, and is struck by lightning simultaneously. Uses runaway truck ramp. Truck is damaged; driver is airlifted to hospital." Good engineering and good process in the face of a huge and multi-pronged disaster, the end result being that there's some local damage but really nothing long-term significant except for the people on the hook to pay for the reactor repairs.

(Partial credit goes to my wife for the original "dukes of hazzard" analogy.)

tunnelcat wrote:

woodchip wrote:Drove my Chevy to the levee and it was glow'n green.....

Well with the explosion at one of Japans reactor buildings and God only knows how long for a melt-down to occur, i don't suppose we'll be hearing from the Green's about how we should start building more reactors here. I guess we'll be hearing more of Palins mantra, "Drill Baby Drill" since at least oil spills can be cleaned up and don't change organisms into mutant freaks. For those of you living on the west coast please post here when you see a glowing cloud that came drifting in from Japan way.

You've obviously not heard of all the baby dolphins dying and washing ashore in the gulf. The ocean bottom is covered with a toxic sludge layer inches thick consisting of an oil, dispersant mix, and those toxins will move higher into the food chain, eventually into animals we consume. Oh but wait, we all can eat farmed shrimp and tilapia from Asia, that are raised in a different type of dirty, sewage poisoned water. $h*t!

As for the radioactive plume, your right about that. Us poor slobs on the west coast are right downwind in the jet stream. We've been dosed before, when the Ruskies were testing atomic bombs in the late 1950's, early 1960's. Not something we need right now. Of course, everyone in the Midwest got it with our boys testing their toys too. And with that hydrogen explosion that destroyed the reactor building yesterday, a meltdown may be inevitable. Things have gotten too hot in the reactor and the zinc casings are reacting with water, making hydrogen. Next step, melty, melty zinc casings and fuel pellets.

Since when do the greenies want nuclear power? Still have that waste problem to deal with. And drill baby drill is no solution either. Natural gas production by using fracking causes it's own set of problems, namely chemicals and natural gas getting into people's well water. Nice, tap water that either poisons you or explodes in your house! Oh and don't forget that nasty lake of coal ash sludge that recently burst through it's earthen dam, which the company wasn't bothering to deal with, and polluted miles and miles of people's land.

While you raised valid concerns, last I heard the oil spill had disappeared to the point of being hard to find. Sludge eating bacteria seem to be finishing the clean up. Now, while dead baby dolphins is indeed sad, I think radioactive poisoned human fetus's are much sadder. So between the two, I'll take oil/coal/propane fired generators as being the lesser of two evils. While wind and solar is a nice concept, it still won't produce the power that we need....especially when peeps like the Kennedy's don't want to look out and see windmills in their favorite bay.

Lothar wrote:In the world of nuclear disasters, Chernobyl was "Dukes of Hazzard hire Red Green to build a rocket car, attempt to jump over grandstand after downing a bottle of vodka. Twelve spectators killed; forest fire still burning." Bad engineering, bad process, a series of terrible decisions, and an eventual total loss of containment.

By comparison, this was "professional truck driver that drank a few too many, blows a tire because he never checked the air pressure, and is struck by lightning simultaneously. ramming into other vehicles to slow down. Truck blows tire and catches fire when it hits a bridge abutment . Fuel spilling into creek next to road causes environmental hazard. Driver is arrested and airlifted to hospital." Good engineering and good process fail from operator malfeasance , the end result being that there's world wide damage as melting fuel rods become exposed causing long-term significant damage for the taxpayers on the hook to pay for the reactor repairs and contamination cleanup.

(Partial credit goes to my wife for the original "dukes of hazzard" analogy.)

Fixed it for you. If you really think we are getting the real scope of the disaster from TEPCO or the Japanese govt. I have a bridge I can lease you at a fair price.

woodchip wrote:Broke it for you. I get my understanding of nuclear power from conspiracy theorists and journalists trying to drive page views, and therefore don't have a clue what I'm saying. The word "radiation" scares me.

Fixed that for you.

So the people reporting the release of Cesium in to the air are miss reporting? And you would have no problem walking unprotected near the reactors with your child in hand? If you answer yes then I stand corrected and apologize. If you answer no, then stop typing fantasy world statements. Even the the US naval fleet in the area moved further off shore. I guess they must be a bunch of sissy's also and read the same info I do.

woodchip wrote:So the people reporting the release of Cesium in to the air are miss reporting?

Nope. Even the article I linked to mentioned the release of Cesium (and Iodine). But when you skimmed the wikipedia article, you failed to notice that Cesium has dozens of isotopes, most of which have a few-second half-life. The reports I have read indicate the isotopes released were of the fast-decaying variety.

you would have no problem walking unprotected near the reactors with your child in hand?

Given what I currently know of the situation, no -- but I would Reagan the whole situation ("trust but verify") with my own dosimeter.

I also have no problem feeding my child bananas. OMG RADIATION EXPOSURE!

Lothar wrote:

woodchip wrote:So the people reporting the release of Cesium in to the air are miss reporting?

Nope. Even the article I linked to mentioned the release of Cesium (and Iodine). But when you skimmed the wikipedia article, you failed to notice that Cesium has dozens of isotopes, most of which have a few-second half-life. The reports I have read indicate the isotopes released were of the fast-decaying variety.

Well, unless the helicopters can fly from Japan to their parent ship in a few seconds, I'd say your information sources are wrong:

"Seventeen U.S. Navy crew members have been contaminated with low-levels of radiation during disaster relief missions in Japan, military officials said Monday.

The radioactivity was detected when the service members returned to the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan aboard three helicopters. They were treated with soap and water and their clothes were discarded."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... japan.html

you would have no problem walking unprotected near the reactors with your child in hand?

Lothar wrote:Given what I currently know of the situation, no -- but I would Reagan the whole situation ("trust but verify") with my own dosimeter.

I also have no problem feeding my child bananas. OMG RADIATION EXPOSURE!

Amazing...we have something in common. I too fed my child bananas.

perspective, woody -

nydailynews wrote:...
The radioactivity was detected when the service members returned to the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan aboard three helicopters. They were treated with soap and water and their clothes were discarded.

"No further contamination was detected," the military said. ...


The U.S. 7th Fleet, positioned about 100 miles northeast of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to deliver aid to Japan's coastal region, moved its ships further away due to "airborne radioactivity" and contamination found on its planes.

The military noted, however, that the level of contamination was very low, and the ship movement was merely a precaution.

"For perspective, the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship's force personnel aboard the ship when it passed through the area was less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun," the Navy said. ...

Dissent I realize it was low level. The rebuttal point was it was not disappearing in the time span Lothar was projecting.

From my thread:

somethingawful forums wrote:Here is a a chart showing the effects of various radiation poisoning levels. For perspective, note that this chart starts at 1 Gy, equivalent to 1 Sv; the radiation outside the problematic Fukushima reactors is being measured in micro-Svs per hour. The highest reported levels outside the Fukushima reactors has been around 1000 to 1500 micro-Svs per hour. This means that one would have to stay in this area for four to six weeks, 24 hours a day, without protection in order to experience the lowest level of radiation poisoning, which while unpleasant is not normally fatal. And this level will not stay where it is.

Also note the chart of normal radiation exposure levels from things like medical x-rays and airline flights.

There have also been very minor releases of radioactive reactor byproducts like cesium along with the steam. This material is less radioactive than the typical output of coal power plants. It is significant mainly as an indicator of the state of the reactor core.

woodchip wrote:Dissent I realize it was low level. The rebuttal point was it was not disappearing in the time span Lothar was projecting.

Having a half-life of seconds doesn't mean it completely disappears in seconds, it just means the effect is significantly reduced in seconds. And, of course, there can be a mix of short and long half-life particles. From what it sounds like, the majority of the radiation released was of the short half-life variety -- so if you were sitting on the vent, you might get a bit sick, but otherwise, the dosage you're looking at is trivial.

I see no indication from any credible source that there's an actual threat of actually-harmful radiation doses. The main threat is still that very expensive plant equipment might be damaged or destroyed.

indeed lothar. I think the mere fact that there wasn't a chernobyl-esque meltdown should be telling enough.

Yea, I’m sure we are getting good old fashioned truthful reporting on this event…just like we did with Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

Lothar wrote:

woodchip wrote:Dissent I realize it was low level. The rebuttal point was it was not disappearing in the time span Lothar was projecting.

Having a half-life of seconds doesn't mean it completely disappears in seconds, it just means the effect is significantly reduced in seconds. And, of course, there can be a mix of short and long half-life particles. From what it sounds like, the majority of the radiation released was of the short half-life variety -- so if you were sitting on the vent, you might get a bit sick, but otherwise, the dosage you're looking at is trivial.

I see no indication from any credible source that there's an actual threat of actually-harmful radiation doses. The main threat is still that very expensive plant equipment might be damaged or destroyed.

No credible source? How about:

"Radiation from Japan's quake-stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant has reached harmful levels, the government says.
The warning comes after the plant was rocked by a third blast which appears to have damaged one of the reactors' containment systems for the first time.
"Now we are talking about levels that can impact human health," said Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano."

Want to keep telling us there is nothing to fear? If govt officials are now saying harmful levels, expect it to get even worse.

For quantitative amounts I found this:

"Radioactive material is leaking 'directly' into the air from the stricken plant at a rate of 400 millisieverts per hour, according to The International Atomic Energy Agency. Anyone exposed to over 100 millisieverts a year risks cancer. "

Still nothing to be concerned about?

This site at MIT has some continuing information
http://mitnse.com/
(this is where Josef Oehman's post (see null's thread) was moved to)

A breach of one of the reactor containment vessels is a different matter from the situation that existed yesterday. However, it's still not doomsday. In this rapidly developing situation, I'd prefer to see links to information sources rather than just quotes. Based on the media's atrocious coverage to this point, I just don't trust them to give an accurate accounting of what's going on as it is happening.

edit -
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Po ... 03111.html

Japanese authorities told the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) that radiation levels at the plant site between units 3 and 4 reached a peak of some 400 millisieverts per hour. "This is a high dose-level value," said the body, "but it is a local value at a single location and at a certain point in time."



Later readings were 11.9 millisieverts per hour, followed six hours later by 0.6 millisieverts, which the IAEA said "indicate the level of radioactivity has been decreasing."

Dissent, from your link and yes your links are a bit better than how the newsy's are reporting it but the 400 millisieverts still is accurate. Yes the dose fell but my concern is that it even spiked that high. :

"Loud noises were heard at Fukushima Daiichi 2 at 6.10am this morning. A major component beneath the reactor may be damaged.

Confirmation of loud sounds this morning came from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA). It noted that “the suppression chamber may be damaged.” It is not clear that the sounds were explosions.

Also known as the torus, this large doughnut-shaped structure sits in the centre of the reactor building at a lower level than the reactor. It contains a very large body of water to which steam can be directed in emergency situations. The steam then condenses and reduces pressure in the reactor system."

So the question becomes, "What other areas of the reactors are damaged besides the outer shell? Did any of the blown walls fall back and damage something critical? I'll use your links to try and keep better informed.

Maybe this will make you feel better.

the MIT site contunues to have sensible sounding reporting.

http://mitnse.com/2011/03/15/explanatio ... s-1-and-3/

I agree Woody that it is hard to find good information in a rapidly developing story such as this.
We may not know the full extent of the conditions at each reactor without some kind of investigation after the major problems have all been solved and it it safe to do the investigation at the Fukushima site.

woodchip wrote:Dissent, from your link and yes your links are a bit better than how the newsy's are reporting it but the 400 millisieverts still is accurate

null0010 wrote:From my thread:

somethingawful forums wrote:Here is a a chart showing the effects of various radiation poisoning levels. For perspective, note that this chart starts at 1 Gy, equivalent to 1 Sv; the radiation outside the problematic Fukushima reactors is being measured in micro-Svs per hour. The highest reported levels outside the Fukushima reactors has been around 1000 to 1500 micro-Svs per hour. This means that one would have to stay in this area for four to six weeks, 24 hours a day, without protection in order to experience the lowest level of radiation poisoning, which while unpleasant is not normally fatal. And this level will not stay where it is.

Also note the chart of normal radiation exposure levels from things like medical x-rays and airline flights.

There have also been very minor releases of radioactive reactor byproducts like cesium along with the steam. This material is less radioactive than the typical output of coal power plants. It is significant mainly as an indicator of the state of the reactor core.

Null, look at your chart and tell me if 400 millisieverts are anywhere near the annual norm (6 millisievert) or what you get from, say a barium enema.
I'm worried about the spikes because those are a sign of problems containing the radiation. If no other high spikes occur pending complete control of damage...then all is well and good. If not, the spikes show that containment is not 100% and if it happened once then there is a good possibility it may happen again.

Yea, and nuclear power will be so cheap they won’t even have to meter it…

No wait.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Su ... 31559.html

All of the panic buying of iodide pills are entirely unwarranted. Although the immediate area in northern Japan is under some threat of contamination, the US is well out of any "danger." These reactor breaches are NOT a Chernobyl scale disaster by any stretch.

Also- people are under the impression that these pills will make one "immune" to radiation. Nothing is further from the truth- these pills only partially protect the thyroid from radioactive iodine accumulation and nothing more. If you're exposed and/or contaminated, you can only try to wash the particles off. Any inhaled or ingested radioactive particles are another story altogether.