DescentBB

A tale of two Pakistanis: The Muslim woman on the left was welcomed
as an immigrant to America 10 years ago, but is complaining of
emotional trauma from having been bumped from an airline flight.
The Christian on the right still lives as a minority in Pakistan and
is just happy to be home after having been chained to a tree,
gang-raped, and ordered to embrace Islam by her kidnappers.

null0010 wrote:I'm not seeing any Qu'ran passages.

In Quran 4:24 we read:

Also (prohibited are) Women already married, except those whom your right hand hands posses. ……. In Quran “ your right hands posses” means captives in Jihad. Abdullah Yusuf Ali also mentioned this in his translation of the Quran footnote # 537. Islam allows Muslims to capture married women in war and marry with them while their husbands are alive and captured. History of Islam has a bloody chronicle of invading countries and seizing properties, women and children.

ThunderBunny wrote:

In Quran 4:24 we read:

Also (prohibited are) Women already married, except those whom your right hand hands posses. ……. In Quran “ your right hands posses” means captives in Jihad. Abdullah Yusuf Ali also mentioned this in his translation of the Quran footnote # 537. Islam allows Muslims to capture married women in war and marry with them while their husbands are alive and captured. History of Islam has a bloody chronicle of invading countries and seizing properties, women and children.

null0010 wrote:I'll have to go get my copy of the Qu'ran to verify all that, but at a glance I don't see a verse condoning or encouraging rape of non-Muslims.

SilverFJ wrote:Wow, null, you could drag that ★■◆● out for days, couldn't you? You really think sex with a woman you forced to marry you isn't rape?

flip wrote:It's simple Null. If God says you should terrorize your enemies, cut their heads off, and steal their wives, if he doesn't want them raped also he better explicitly say "BUT DO NOT RAPE THEM". So in this case it's not what the Koran says but what it does not say.

flip wrote:No sense in making this more complicated than it is Null. If God tells someone to hate someone else, then be assured they will. It's simple as that.

Matthew 5:43-48 wrote:Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

ThunderBunny wrote:Maybe I have a legitamate gripe against a white guy like you Null because you're a citizen of a country that has been oppressing me.

ThunderBunny wrote:The KKK is a horrible religiously-based movement based on hate, but what proportion of violence relative to islamic militantcy has been done in the world by the KKK OVER its ENTIRE existence?

It would be more appropriate to compare violence done by Islam OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE to violence done by Christianity OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE. And I think we both know who the "winner" is in that little contest.

ThunderBunny wrote:

It would be more appropriate to compare violence done by Islam OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE to violence done by Christianity OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE. And I think we both know who the "winner" is in that little contest.

Yep. Islam, by a LONG shot.

Here are a few of the 123 verses in the Quran about killing and fighting.'

"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that Allah is with the godfearing" (Sura 9:123).

"Fight against those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger, have forbidden -- such men as practise not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book -- until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humbled" (Sura 9:29).

"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" (Sura 5:33).

NOTE: The Qur'an encourages Muslims to fight, even when they would rather seek peace with those who do not wish to adopt Islam.

"Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." (Sura AL-BAQARA 2:16)

Most Muslims would say that these verses are misunderstood, but misunderstood or not, the history of Islam shows that many Muslim leaders have used those verses to spread terror. Islam, according to the Qur'an, can be spread by force.

Apologists for Islam often quote the following verse, and most Westerners, unfamiliar with the Koran and imagining that it must obey the same theological logic as the Christian Bible, assume that Islamic scripture mandates religious toleration toward non-Muslims. That assumption is inaccurate.

""Let there be no compulsion in religion; truth stands out clearly from error" (Sura 2.256).

Sounds peaceul enough, right? That is until you learn that the Qur'an includes many abrogated verses, called mansukh, and abrogating verses, nasikh; the latter cancel the former, rendering them invalid, though they nevertheless remain in the Koran and are deceptively quoted, for Western consumption, as though they still represented genuine Islamic beliefs. For example:

O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

"Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush" (Sura 9.5).

"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. (Sura 5.51).

null0010 wrote:

ThunderBunny wrote:

It would be more appropriate to compare violence done by Islam OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE to violence done by Christianity OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE. And I think we both know who the "winner" is in that little contest.

Yep. Islam, by a LONG shot.

I've already demonstrated conclusively in another thread that the death toll from Christianity is much higher than the death toll from Islam in the past 200 years, so I suppose I'll have to gather historical data stretching back to the birth of Christ.

Null wrote:It would be more appropriate to compare violence done by Islam OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE to violence done by Christianity OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE. And I think we both know who the "winner" is in that little contest.

I've already demonstrated conclusively in another thread that the death toll from Christianity is much higher than the death toll from Islam in the past 200 years, so I suppose I'll have to gather historical data stretching back to the birth of Christ.

null0010 wrote:It would be more appropriate to compare violence done by Islam OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE to violence done by Christianity OVER ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE. And I think we both know who the "winner" is in that little contest.

null0010 wrote: CUDA: The Crusades did not happen 200 or less years ago.

null0010 wrote: CUDA: The Crusades did not happen 200 or less years ago.

CUDA wrote:Are we now changing the parameters of this discussion?

Foil wrote:

null0010 wrote: CUDA: The Crusades did not happen 200 or less years ago.

CUDA wrote:Are we now changing the parameters of this discussion?

No, Null was referring to his own post, where he said he compared the last 200 years. The crusades simply fall outside that time frame.

Foil wrote:That said, the heart of the debate on the previous page is whether the scriptures Cuda referenced are being used against non-Muslim women. From what I gather, the primary factor seems to be the cultural framework where it's interpreted (i.e. the Islamic religious leadership in the West generally sees those scriptures very differently than elsewhere).

IMHO, arguing whether radical violence by Muslims is due to cultural factors or some inherent quality of the religion is like debating whether the glass is half full or half empty. It's both, and the relative weight of each factor depends largely on where/when you're looking.

Null wrote:Okay, that sounds more like wife stealing than rape, though.

steal
   [steel] Show IPA ,verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
–verb (used with object)
1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

[rape
1    [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.
–noun
4.
an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.
5.
Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

CUDA wrote:there are accounts of over 150 million killed by Muslim's over the last 200 years

630 Two years before Muhammad's death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting 'agreements' from northern tribes. They could enjoy the 'privilege' of living under Islamic 'protection' (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad's and the later Caliphs' policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632—634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al—Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616—17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today's Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034—35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al—Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: 'The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.' To this Khalid retorts: 'How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many' (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: '[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists' (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur'an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem's; the second mine).

634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad's death.

705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al—Hakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.

MUSLIMS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF MORE THAN 270 MILLION NON-MUSLIMS WORLDWIDE

120 MILLION AFRICANS
Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] estimates that 11 million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and 14 million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. For every slave captured many others died. Estimates of this collateral damage vary. The renowned missionary David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached a plantation, five others were killed in the initial raid or died of illness and privation on the forced march.[Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888] Those who were left behind were the very young, the weak, the sick and the old. These soon died since the main providers had been killed or enslaved. So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have an estimated death of about 120 million people. Islam ran the wholesale slave trade in Africa.

60 MILLION CHRISTIANS
The number of Christians martyred by Islam is 9 million [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson,World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10] . A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another 50 million died in wars by jihad. So counting the million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have:

80 MILLION HINDUS
Koenard Elst in Negationism in India gives an estimate of 80 million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. [Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.] The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. The mountains near India are called the Hindu Kush, meaning the “funeral pyre of the Hindus.”

10 MILLION BUDDHISTS
Buddhists do not keep up with the history of war. Keep in mind that in jihad only Christians and Jews were allowed to survive as dhimmis (servants to Islam); everyone else had to convert or die. Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly 10 million. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.]

270,000,000: THAT’S WAY MORE THAN STALIN, HITLER, MAO, POL POT, IDI AMIN, AND THE REST OF THE 20TH CENTURY’S GENOCIDAL SOCIALISTS!
Astute BloggersPolitical Islam H/T Maria