DescentBB

tunnelcat wrote:Sorry CUDA, there is absolutely no explanation that would ever satisfy me about all the contradictions in the Bible, and why God is different between the Old and New Testaments. Jesus I do support, for his thinking is much more common sense and rational, but I'm too much of a realist, and the Bible was written by uneducated, unscientific people back in superstitious times and I can't take it as fact, only as a parable. Even the parts concerning Jesus that are constantly thrown at us by Evangelicals were written hundreds of years after His death, so that is not reliable either.

Only until either I die, and find out what happens then, or God comes to me before that happens and speaks the Truth to me, will I finally have my answers. I also think that most Muslims are still living in past, during the violent times before the New Testament, and still have yet to modernize their thinking. That's their problem, and unfortunately, ours now.

Bet51987 wrote:Cuda, the harmony in the inconsistencies of the bible are merely clever interpretations by those trained in teaching the masses and the world is full of them. When they fail at being clever, or when science shows that a particular event has has no evidence to support it, it suddenly reinterprets from literal to figurative.

Bee

CUDA wrote: Actually when you take the time study the scriptures, you realize there is quite a harmony about them all be it complex and yet at the same time a simple one. and there are really no contradictions in them, once you learn how to read them. if you ever change your mind the offer still stands

TC wrote:Oh, the Bible is harmonious and complex, it's just that science contradicts the Bible

TC wrote:I also look up to Him as well, for many should live by his words. Pure goodness should never be put down.

I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist.

I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors.

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe.

CUDA wrote:Christ was Crucified .... Roman documents and History confirms it.

null0010 wrote:

CUDA wrote:Christ was Crucified .... Roman documents and History confirms it.

citation needed

woodchip wrote:I wonder how Jesus would do on American Idol.

CUDA wrote:

TC wrote:Oh, the Bible is harmonious and complex, it's just that science contradicts the Bible

the Bible didn't stop at Genesis, people need to read past the first chapter. but this is a different discussion.

CUDA wrote:

TC wrote:I also look up to Him as well, for many should live by his words. Pure goodness should never be put down.

so you look up to a man that if he was not who he said he is, was a liar and a fraud?? and if he was both of those then how can you claim he was Pure goodness??? if find that remarkable.

CUDA wrote:

I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist.

and yet Christ claimed to be God and that he would be slain for the sins of the world.
Christ was Crucified, the old testament foretold it, Christ foretold it. Roman documents and History confirms it.

CUDA wrote:

I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors.

and you have evidence to back this up?? because it seems the dead sea scrolls when found, were outside of some language translational changes, an exact interpretation of the Hebrew Bible (old Testament) and they were written between 150 BC and 50 AD. So you might wish to rethink your "feelings" on the matter

CUDA wrote:

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe.

TC your not hurting my feelings if you don't agree with me. that is your Choice. and I agree. this is a free country and that people should be able to believe how they choose believe. but make no mistake your choices in life do have consequences, and everyone will be held accountable in the end. you also need to bear in mind that there are hateful people on both sides that try to force their beliefs on each other, and ridicule each other for what they believe. there are members of this board that do just that. one of them posting in this very thread. they don't want to be tolerant of the others way of thinking, they don't even wish to understand the others way of thinking. they just want to make themselves feel bigger by calling others names. thank you for not taking that approach.
I love a spirited debate, it challenges be and makes me analyze why I believe what I believe everyday.

and my offer still stands

TunnelCat wrote:or we'd all be committing suicide just to go to heaven before we sin and screw our chances.

tunnelcat wrote:

CUDA wrote:

I just don't aspire to Him as being God, or that He died for my sins, even though I believe that some higher being does exist.

and yet Christ claimed to be God and that he would be slain for the sins of the world.
Christ was Crucified, the old testament foretold it, Christ foretold it. Roman documents and History confirms it.

Oh, I don't deny he was crucified. That was the Roman punishment of choice for breaking certain laws. It's just that there is NO PROOF that he was resurrected. Of course he foretold his death, he was challenging centuries old Jewish doctrine and knew that he was ruffling powerful feathers. Nostradamus made many predictions that have come to pass, so was he God too?

CUDA wrote:

I also believe the Bible has been transcribed and altered over the centuries to the point that it no longer matches the meaning of the original authors.

and you have evidence to back this up?? because it seems the dead sea scrolls when found, were outside of some language translational changes, an exact interpretation of the Hebrew Bible (old Testament) and they were written between 150 BC and 50 AD. So you might wish to rethink your "feelings" on the matter

The Bible has been very fluid through history, and is still being altered to fit modern norms and idioms today. You can't tell me that something hasn't been lost or changed in all those transcriptions throughout all this time. Opinions always influence what writers put down on paper, especially if they're trying to decide another author's meaning. Read any book and you'll get a whole range of what people thought a writer was trying to say in any review. Add to that trying to decide what someone meant in another language, thousands of years old at that, and you've got a nightmare figuring out what someone was originally trying to say.

CUDA wrote:

I know you are sincere in your beliefs CUDA, and I don't want to marginalize or put down that aspect of your life. It's a free country and everyone should be able to believe in what they want to believe.

TC your not hurting my feelings if you don't agree with me. that is your Choice. and I agree. this is a free country and that people should be able to believe how they choose believe. but make no mistake your choices in life do have consequences, and everyone will be held accountable in the end. you also need to bear in mind that there are hateful people on both sides that try to force their beliefs on each other, and ridicule each other for what they believe. there are members of this board that do just that. one of them posting in this very thread. they don't want to be tolerant of the others way of thinking, they don't even wish to understand the others way of thinking. they just want to make themselves feel bigger by calling others names. thank you for not taking that approach.
I love a spirited debate, it challenges be and makes me analyze why I believe what I believe everyday.

and my offer still stands

Maybe we'll all be held accountable or maybe not. Maybe there is just a big fat NOTHING when we die, poof, bupkiss, nada, end of story. I don't even fear that possibility either. In fact, I'm tired, in pain much of the time and just worn out. I don't need anymore drama. But any human being just can't know what happens in the end. No one's come back to tell us, (unless one believes Jesus' words, and I don't). If there is a God, he must want it that way, or we'd all be committing suicide just to go to heaven before we sin and screw our chances. I've tried to live my life in a way that doesn't hurt others. In fact, I like to go out of my way to do good things for others when I can. Many times I've gotten burned or used in return, but that has never dissuaded me from doing the right thing. If I HAVE to also embrace Jesus against my beliefs, just to go to Heaven, even though I've tried to be a good person all my life and still all I've done wasn't good enough for God, then I guess my fate is what it is. What does scare me is if God, if there is a God, decided to recycle or reincarnate me BACK on earth. No thanks, once was really enough and things are not going to get better.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:The Bible is clear that we are sinners by heredity. There are a lot of wrong ideas about Christianity floating around, and even being declared from the pulpits. By the age of 13, and in a Bible-believing home, I had to unlearn a lot of them largely because of my exposure to churches. A lot of you might be amazed to know what Christianity is all about, beyond all of the confusion and organized religion in our society.

TC wrote:As for the Messianic Prophecies, Judaism doesn't even believe that the Messianic Age has arrived yet. So who's truth is the truth? Christians or Jews?

Sergeant Thorne wrote:That changes everything!

CUDA wrote:The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

CUDA wrote:you should go back and read your history of the Bible through the ages. it's not been until recently that we've had all these versions on it.

In the synoptic narrative, while Jesus is hanging on the cross, the sky is "darkened for 3 hours," from the sixth to the ninth hour (noon to mid-afternoon). Both Roman orator Julius Africanus and Christian theologian Origen refer to Greek historian Phlegon as having written "with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place"[123] Julius Africanus further refers to the writings of historian Thallus when denying the possibility of a solar eclipse: "This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day accord but an eclipse of the sun takes placing to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour falls on the day before the passover;e only when the moon comes under the sun."[124]stia A solar eclipse concurrent with a full moon is a scientific impossibility. Christiann apologist Tertullian wrote "In the same hour, too, the light of day was withdrawn, when the sun at the very time was in his meridian blaze. Those who were not aware that this had been predicted about Christ, no doubt thought it an eclipse. You yourselves have the account of the world-portent still in your archives."[125] The darkness was reported as far away as Heliopolis and apparently the unnatural occurrence was referred to by the Apostle Paul when converting Dionysius to Christianity.[126]

A solar eclipse concurrent with a full moon is a scientific impossibility.

Phlegon's greatest work was the writing of a history book, called The Olympiades. The Olympiades can be used as a useful means of establishing a time-line.

We only have fragments left to us of this monumental work and quotations of it from other writers.
One such quotation is as follows, "In the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad, there was a great eclipse of the Sun, greater than had ever been known before, for at the sixth hour the day was changed into night, and the stars were seen in the heavens. An earthquake occurred in Bythinia and overthrew a great part of the city of Nicæa."

Africanus quoted a section of Phlegon's work as follows: "During the time of Tiberius Cæsar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the Full Moon."

Jeff250 wrote:

CUDA wrote:The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!

Have you checked out any of these? Almost none of these mention any Messiah. At best, most are so vague and open to interpretation that they have plausible deniability--if you didn't believe the Messiah has come, you could easily say they were about something else. At worst, they seem intentionally taken out of context. A lot of them aren't even in future tense. If you're really a prophet, you don't have to be so vague and obtuse.

Also, you need an external source to verify prophecies. Otherwise, you're just using the Bible to prove the Bible.

Maybe you should cut this list down to one or two that you think are really persuasive.

1) “But thou, Bethlehem Epratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel: whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” (Micah 5:2) (Note: today the population of the earth is larger than the 2 billion figure used when Stoner made his model.) To arrive at the answer Stoner started with the average population of Bethlehem from the days of the prophet Micah to this present time and divided it by the average population of the earth for the same period. It was discovered that this ratio was 1 to 280,000. Since that time the earth has had an average population of 2,000,000,000. So the answer would be one man in 7,150/2,000,000,000 or one man in 2.8 X10 to the fifth power was born in Bethlehem.

2) “Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me...” (Malachi 3:1) How many men who have been born in Bethlehem have had a forerunner sent by God to prepare his way? We will use the conservative estimate of 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to the third power.

3) “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon...a colt the foal of an ass. ” (Zechariah 9:9) The question now becomes, “One man in how many, who was born in Bethlehem and had a forerunner, entered into Jerusalem as a king riding on the colt, the foal of an ass?” Because this question is too restrictive, we will broaden it to read, “One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a colt, the foal of an ass?” We will use 1 in 10 to the second power.

4) “And one shall say unto him, ‘What are these wounds in thine hands?’ Then he shall answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’” (Zechariah 13:6) One man in how many all over the world has been betrayed by a friend and as a result suffered wounds in his hands? We will use 1 in 10 to the third power.

5) “And I said unto them, ‘If ye think good, give me my price; and if no, forbear. So they weighed for my price, thirty pieces of silver.” (Zechariah 11:12) Of all the people who have suffered betrayal, how many have been betrayed for exactly thirty pieces of silver? We will use 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to third power.


6) “And the Lord said unto me, ‘Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prized at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.” (Zechariah 11:13) This specifies that the price is not to be returned, but rather cast down in the house of the Lord. Then, without the person throwing them down doing anything, those to whom the silver was returned would have to give the silver to the potter. The reason the priests to whom the remorseful Judas returned the money he received from them to betray the Messiah did not put the funds back into the temple treasury was because it was not money obtained in a kosher, an appropriate way. There was a provision that the priests could spend discretionary funds to meet specific needs. The field they purchased from the potter was subsequently used as a cemetery for travelers and low income people. None of the students had ever heard of another incident involving all these criteria. So we used the estimate as 1 in 100,000 or 10 to the fifth power.

7) “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before the shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7) What are the odds that an innocent man who has been betrayed, oppressed and afflicted and is on trial for his life will not offer a single word in his own defense?” We will use 1 in 1,000 or 1 in 10 to the third power.

“For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: the pierce my hands and my feet” (Psalm 22:16) When David wrote these words, death by crucifixion had yet to be invented. The question is, “One man in how many from the time of King David on, has been crucified?” (p. 105) We estimated that it would have been 1 in 10,000 or 1 in 10 to the fourth power.

Next, “If these estimates are considered fair, one man in how many men, the world over, will fulfill all eight prophecies? Let’s run the math. We have 1 in 2.8 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 100 X 1,000 X 1,000 X 100,000 X 1,000 X 10,000. This gives us 1 in 2.8 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Let us simplify it by calling it 1 X 10 to the twenty-eighth power. Written out we have 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.”

Sergeant Thorne wrote:So it doesn't really fly in the face of omnipotence, just your limited conception of what that should mean in reality.

Neither the non-English pronunciation of the name of Christ, nor his heredity, nor his skin color count against the Bible's accuracy as you seem to think.

TC wrote:That brings up another little pet peeve of mine with Christians. In every image I've ever seen of Jesus, at least in the U.S., he is depicted as this radiant white male, not someone from the Middle Eastern region of the Mediterranean, which has a darker skinned population. Even the Virgin Mary is depicted as white. In fact, every different region of the world seems to depict Jesus as a member of their own race. Jesus was born a Jew, so he should appear as a Jew from that region. Remember this little scrap? Christians almost became apoplectic over the image. It may not be accurate either, but neither is "white". I'm just saying...

tunnelcat wrote:CUDA, after doing a lot of thinking, I've changed my opinion and came to the conclusion that we are all born with some evil inside us. I too have some of this evil, because I sit here in the lap of luxury on my nice warm home with plenty of food, water, power, easy transportation and safety, all the while other people on the planet have no home, no food, no clean water, no security and are surrounded by war and death, and yet I'm not doing anything about it. In fact, I'm using more than my fair share just living in the U.S., by consuming more resources than the rest of the world, dumping more pollution than many other countries, and the government I helped elect is using my money to torture and kill others all over the planet in the name of national security and I'm not able to stop it. Where is the good in that? If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

flip wrote:Here we have secular historians disputing over the darkness that is wrote about in the Gospels.

CUDA wrote:EVEN IF you questioned some of them.

CUDA wrote:if you lack an understanding of scriptures they might seem vague.

CUDA wrote:I never said they were word for word identical with the Original texts. obviously just in translation alone some words have no direct translation from language to language.

CUDA wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

There is. and Just Ask him.

tunnelcat wrote:The image on the Shroud of Turin is very vague. You could come up with almost any race from it's depiction. Most races like to think that Jesus looked like one of them anyway. I guess what bothers me is that many in the Christian Identity Movement (White Supremacists, the Aryan Nation and other hate groups) like to portray Jesus, Moses, Adam and Eve as of the white race and all other races are inferior because of that. They use of the image of Jesus (and the others) as "white" to justify and give credence to their hate propaganda.

Galatians wrote:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

CUDA wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:If there is a God, may he forgive my soul.

There is. and Just Ask him.

That's too easy. Do your sinning and then get quick an' easy forgiveness by just asking Jesus for it. Bah. Never thought it made sense.

TC wrote:Just like the Catholic Sacrament. One must be contrite, one must confess, one must make amends, then do penance. Many use it as a ticket to "remove" their sins, then they promptly go out and sin again, thinking all can be forgiven in the future. Many seem to forget the "do penance" and "make amends" parts. Too simple, convenient and lazy. What's to stop the whole cycle again? Maybe I'm simplifying things too much, but it all seems so transparent.

There is more historical evidence to support the three hour period of darkness, and therefore of the Crucifixion, in 33 AD than almost any other ancient event in history!

Thallus, a historian writing in AD. 52, wrote to deny any supernatural elements accompanying the Crucifixion . Though his writings are lost to us, we have the quotations of other later writers. The writing of Thallus shows that the facts of Jesus' death were known and discussed in Rome as early as the middle of the first century, to the extent that unbelievers like Thallus thought it necessary to explain the matter of the darkness as something natural. He took the existence of Christ for granted. Neither Jesus, nor the darkness at his death, were ever denied. At the time of his writing, unbelievers had already been explaining the darkness at the time of the Crucifixion as a purely natural phenomenon.

Another Jewish source, the Talmud, makes several historical references to Jesus. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the Talmud is "the collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism." Although not explicitly referred to by name, later rabbis identify the person as Jesus. These references to Jesus are neither sympathetic to Him or His Church. Also these writings were preserved through the centuries by Jews, so Christians cannot be accused of tampering with the text.

The Talmud makes note of Jesus' miracles. No attempt is made to deny them, but it ascribes them to magical arts from Egypt. Also His crucifixion is dated as "on the eve of the Feast of the Passover" in agreement with the Gospel (Luke 22:1ff; John 19:31ff). Similar again to the Gospel (Matt. 27:51), the Talmud records the earthquake and the tearing in two of the Temple curtain during the time of Jesus' death. Josephus in his book, The Jewish War, also confirmed these events.

flip wrote:No, they are not all christians but they all were historians. Considering that the majority of them scoffed at the idea that it was caused by Christ's death and rather explained it as a solar eclipse would hardly make them christian advocates.

• Surviving first century accounts
  • Phlegon, non-Christian historian, says the event was a solar eclipse
• Non-surviving first century accounts
  • Thallus, non-Christian historian, says the event was a solar eclipse
• Surviving second century accounts
  • Origen, Christian author, quotes Phlegon that the event was a solar eclipse
  • Julius Africanus, Christian apologetic historian, says that the historical record of the eclipse can't be right if we are to believe the calendar date given by the gospels
  • Tertullian, Christian apologist, says that the only reason why historians thought it was an eclipse was because they weren't aware enough of predictions about Jesus
• Others that you mentioned that I don't have quotes for and can't place yet
  • The Talmud
  • Lucian of Samosata
  • Cornelius Tacitus

Jeff250 wrote:So then take me up on my offer. Pick your favorite one or two. Don't copy and paste the text from a Website, but actually take some time to satisfy my concerns. Show me e.g. how we know it has to be a prophecy instead of just a poem. Show me how e.g. we know it's messianic. Show me how there's no plausible deniability, e.g., how you couldn't say "oh that wasn't a messianic prophecy" if it never was fulfilled.

Duet 18:15
The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

Daniel 9:24-27 (New International Version, ©2011)

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’[a] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[c]

25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,[d] the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.[e] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[f] In the middle of the ‘seven’[g] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[h] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Micah 5:2 (New International Version, ©2011)

2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

God says I will raise up a prophet like me (God) from among the Jews

Bet51987 wrote:

CUDA wrote:...It is that easy. that's what makes it so beautiful. of course there is just a little more to it than that. there is the whole part of believing that Christ is God and he died for your sins and was resurrected.

According to the story that doesn't do it. It has to be true repentance to count. You can't do all the bad things in life while planning to repent when your time is up. It won't count in the eyes of the bible God.

And, as far as this.. There is. and Just Ask him. , you have to feel Him first.

Bee