DescentBB

A student at LSU wanting to burn the American flag in support of another flag burner who stole a flag from the historic war memorial(causing thousands of dollars in damage) and burned it in protest of the Bin Laden killing.

I agree that LSU student has the right to burn the flag in protest but I also agree that anyone has the right to stop said burning in a peaceful manner. I for one would have had a fire extinguisher on hand. The student lacked the proper permits to hold the burning so he instead tried to make a speech in support of the other flag burner. That is when he faced patriotism from fellow students.

So his patriotism was met with patriotism.

permit to hold a protest. lol.

null0010 wrote:So his patriotism was met with patriotism.

More like his support for condoning criminal activity was met with patriotism.

Ferno wrote:permit to hold a protest. lol.

He had no a local burn permit.

Real Patriots don't burn flags Null. Unless it's done in the proper manner fitting the respect the flag is due. Maybe you should read THIS

Broken link there Heretic.

Anyway, I view the burner as cowardly. If he had any real cajones, he'd burn a Hamas or Hezb'allah flag. I know I would.

"Real Patriot." Right.

Yeah, it doesn't get more unpatriotic than burning your country's flag. That's just the way it is. If he thinks he's being a patriot, he's as confused as null apparently is. There are ways to protest something your country has done without burning the symbol that has represented your country since its inception. Idiot.

Flag burning is legal for a reason. It's speech protected by the First Amendment. Exercising your Constitutional rights - what could possibly be more patriotic?

.

Bet51987 wrote:

null0010 wrote:... what could possibly be more patriotic?

By proudly flying that flag instead of burning it.

Bee

And if not that then at least don't destroy other peoples property to steal their flag and burn it!
Burn your own damn flag!

I am proud of the fact that I can do anything I want to the American flag; a right which is simply not present in many countries around the world. A citizen of the Philippines cannot legally burn their country's flag, for example.

Null why don't you go and tell the people who have took up arms to protect the flag that flag burning is patriotic. Thousands have died protecting the flag in battle. They may have the right but that doesn't make it right or patriotic. The Poem that became our national anthem. I truly think you have no idea what is patriotic. That saddens a veteran like myself.

Soldiers fight to protect the rights of Americans.

Burning the flag is one of the rights Americans have.

By process of syllogism, soldiers fight to protect flag burning.

People put too much stock in symbolatry. It's true for the people burning flags as much as it's true for the people preoccupied with people burning flags.

I disagree. I think the significance of "symbolatry" (new word score?) is largely lost on recent generations. I think it plays and has played an important part in the world throughout history.

Do you have any idea how many guidelines there are regarding the American flag? How to handle it, how to fold it, how to fly it, how to treat it. Now our generation thinks it's some kind of patriotic right to burn it... Unbelievable that the argument even exists.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Idiots

Heretic wrote:He had no a local burn permit.

a ridiculous concept in itself.

true freedom of speech doesn't require asking permission from the local government.

and free speech will always trump emotional attachments.

Thousands have died protecting the flag in battle. They may have the right but that doesn't make it right or patriotic.

It's not the flag that they were fighting to protect. it's the freedom of the people to express their disagreement with the government, even if YOU find it ugly to see, hear or watch.

If you make flag burning illegal, then you'll need to make other forms of speech you disagree with illegal. You'll then be making flyers illegal. then protests illegal. then differing opinions illegal.

then all you'll be left with is one opinion that says what the government is doing is good for all, destroying everything every soldier ever believed in, or fought for.

null0010 wrote:Burning the flag is one of the rights Americans have.

Burning your own flag is one of the rights Americans have.

Stealing someone else's flag and then burning it is both illegal and a total jerk move. Supporting someone else's illegal jerk-move action, while legal, is also a total jerk move.

People have the right to burn the flag in protest, but people don’t have the right to protest the burning of the flag.

That’s rich!

And yea, if you need a permit to burn trash, or make a bonfire, then you need a permit to burn a flag. (no pun intended for sure, because that is the proper disposal for a flag) And here in Philly…you do need a permit to place flyers on public property. (although nobody obeys it) Large protests also need a permit, etc.

Freedom of speech cannot supersede local ordinances, I believe we went down this road before.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Do you have any idea how many guidelines there are regarding the American flag? How to handle it, how to fold it, how to fly it, how to treat it.

But that's half of my point. At the end of the day, it's all just a bunch of stuff someone made up. If the flag reminds you of our proud history, then that's a good thing. But if you're letting some dork control you with it, then you have to realize that ultimately it's just a piece of cloth.

Ferno wrote:If you make flag burning illegal, then you'll need to make other forms of speech you disagree with illegal. You'll then be making flyers illegal. then protests illegal. then differing opinions illegal.

then all you'll be left with is one opinion that says what the government is doing is good for all, destroying everything every soldier ever believed in, or fought for.

Yes, that's obviously the road we start down in asserting that flag burning is anti-patriotic by definition, and there's no place for it. Who said anything about making it illegal? I'm just saying it's unacceptable as a demonstrative act. As for free speech, maybe you folks just aren't subtle enough to realize what statement is being made when you burn our flag.

Lothar wrote:Burning your own flag is one of the rights Americans have.

While that's true, the fact that the particular piece of cloth is your own property does not negate the fact that you're desecrating a symbol that belongs to all of us as a people.

Jeff, the purpose of the form with respect to the flag is to ensure that we hold the flag, as a symbol of our country and what it stands for (not just a snapshot of what it stands for under this current administration) with the proper respect.

Lothar wrote:

null0010 wrote:Burning the flag is one of the rights Americans have.

Burning your own flag is one of the rights Americans have.

Stealing someone else's flag and then burning it is both illegal and a total jerk move. Supporting someone else's illegal jerk-move action, while legal, is also a total jerk move.

I have never said I supported thievery, in this thread or any other.

I find this debate amusing sometimes.

"How dare you burn the flag! That's un-patriotic!"
"How dare you question my flag-burning! That's un-patriotic!"
"How dare you question my questioning of your flag-burning! That's un-patriotic!"
"How dare you question my questioning of your questioning of my..."

--------------

As far as I'm concerned, as long as the debate is freely expressed, and law enforcement is only involved to prevent violence, then everything is as it should be.

[Personally, I think the guy who intended to burn the flag was a moron to think he'd be generally supported by announcing his intentions. I also think the massive crowd who was there to counter him was a poor move, simply because it drew attention to the protester, and ended up so big that police had to step in to protect him. With that said, it's still a decent example of the first amendment at work.]

<slightly off-topic>
Speaking of freedom of speech involving flags, this reminded me of an odd thing I've been noticing lately:

There's an office building I pass by every day going to and from work, that has their U.S. flag at half-staff roughly every other day. At first I thought it was related to some famous folks who passed away, but I'm starting to get the impression it's more of a political statement (e.g. I've noticed a vague correlation between Presidential decisions or news and the 'half-staff days').

Anyone else think that's an odd way of using the flag?

Maybe someone in the building lost a family member and that is the way the office holds honor to the service person. If it was a political statement they might turn the flag upside down. Unless you ask you will never know the reason for the half staff flag.

Foil wrote:<slightly off-topic>
Speaking of freedom of speech involving flags, this reminded me of an odd thing I've been noticing lately:

There's an office building I pass by every day going to and from work, that has their U.S. flag at half-staff roughly every other day. At first I thought it was related to some famous folks who passed away, but I'm starting to get the impression it's more of a political statement (e.g. I've noticed a vague correlation between Presidential decisions or news and the 'half-staff days').

Anyone else think that's an odd way of using the flag?

Hmmmmmmm, Flip..........In a sense, maybe it's a subversive way of 'flipping the bird' or saying "someone is half masted" in protest?????????

Heretic, I find the crowd's reaction to the flag burner disturbing. Why do they assume he's a "hippie" too? Are right wingers that go out and protest about something just crazy hippies too? No they call themselves "patriots". The mob nationalism portrayed by this crowd is absolutely frightening. Even though I don't approve of burning the flag, if everyone values free speech and burning the flag is free speech, as repugnant as that is to most people, why stomp on one lone protester's freedom of speech? Why didn't these morons just hold a counter demonstration in support of the flag, instead of threatening, vilifying and name calling that single protester, is a prime example of our society's penchant for bullying those they don't agree with. It's an anathema to our country's core principles.

Voltaire wrote:I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Heretic wrote:Unless you ask you will never know the reason for the half staff flag.

Point taken. Perhaps I'll stop by and ask sometime.

When you find out, let us know. I'm curious.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

Lothar wrote:Burning your own flag is one of the rights Americans have.

While that's true, the fact that the particular piece of cloth is your own property does not negate the fact that you're desecrating a symbol that belongs to all of us as a people.

One of the things that symbol stands for is the right to desecrate cherished symbols.

Burning the flag is, in some sense, the ultimate expression of American freedom. It's usually being expressed by giant d-bags, but that's another part of American freedom -- you are free to be a jerk, a d-bag, or a lamer. And I'm free to think poorly of you and criticize you for it. And on and on and on.

Someone's 'patriotism' is always going to be someone else's 'repression'.

TC vilification is the normal these days even you take part in vilifying the people in the tea party or republicans and let us not forget the Christians you you are so afraid of that will take over the US and take away all your womanly rights.

Lothar wrote:One of the things that symbol stands for is the right to desecrate cherished symbols.

I'll cut to the chase and say I think your thinking is skewed on this, Lothar. On a lighter note, the moron just burned the symbol that supposedly stands for his right to burn it, so I no longer recognize his right. How's that?

I was a bothered by the pack mentality there, and I don't accept all of that as pure patriotism, but I think in general their indignation was very justified. I'm glad they didn't give him a chance to speak. Why should they listen to what he has to say? Because he has a right to say it? Let him stop burning flags and find a more respectful way to express his concerns.

Oh, and that guy was definitely a hippy.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

Lothar wrote:One of the things that symbol stands for is the right to desecrate cherished symbols.

I'll cut to the chase and say I think your thinking is skewed on this, Lothar. On a lighter note, the moron just burned the symbol that supposedly stands for his right to burn it, so I no longer recognize his right. How's that?

Good thing it's not your decision, eh?

It was a joke, but I guess you're still hurting from my assertion that you're an idiot for equating flag burning with patriotism--an absurd notion.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

Lothar wrote:One of the things that symbol stands for is the right to desecrate cherished symbols.

I'll cut to the chase and say I think your thinking is skewed on this, Lothar.

I'll cut to the chase and say your thinking is definitely wrong.

The highest court of our land has found that flag burning is allowed under free speech; in essence, America itself has declared flag burning to be free speech. Free speech is one of the ultimate ideals of America. The flag is a symbol of those ideals. Ergo, one of the things the flag stands for is the right to desecrate the flag (and other symbols.)

That doesn't mean burning the flag is a good idea. It just means that it's perfectly in line with the ideals the flag represents.

I believe that the "Highest Court in the land" may be wrong. Here's my thinking. What does a person do when they are naturalized into the United States to become a U.S. citizen?

United States Naturalization Oath wrote:... I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same ...

Tell me how burning the symbol of our country is bearing true faith and allegiance? It is exactly the opposite. Even if it is speech (and what else would it be, since the flag is a symbol--a representation), why is it that you can become an American through speech, but speech that in essence declares that you reject America and everything it stands for doesn't have any effect and is protected? Actually I believe that for the most part these mush-brains do not appreciate the significance of burning the flag, or perhaps assign an erroneous significance to it. That's a pretty fucked up "ideal", if you ask me. I think someone has made a mistake. Doesn't anything mean anything anymore? Burning the flag openly should be grounds for losing your citizenship, if you ask me, and if you're willing to burn the flag, why should you want citizenship (oh yeah, it's a pretty great country and your ass is lucky to be here)? I think it should be treated as a renunciation of the nationalization oath, legally.

You may all proceed, a-gasp, to be horrified at my railings against the freedom of speech.

I don’t think burning the flag is necessarily a rejection of “everything” America stands for, sort of like when you wish your parents were dead for not letting you go to that concert.

It’s a protest against “something” America stands for, if a person totally rejects America, they probably would leave…unless they had some other reason to stay.

Sergeant Thorne wrote: Yes, that's obviously the road we start down in asserting that flag burning is anti-patriotic by definition, and there's no place for it. Who said anything about making it illegal?

When someone tells others that it should be illegal.

I just hope others have the sense to knock it into that persons' head that if that happens, they'd be going down a rather dangerous slippery slope.

I'm just saying it's unacceptable as a demonstrative act. As for free speech, maybe you folks just aren't subtle enough to realize what statement is being made when you burn our flag.

You're free to deem it unacceptable, just as much as I'm free to deem that you finding it unacceptable is simply your horse ★■◆● morality talking.

A flag is really just a piece of fabric with a lot of emotional attachments to it. I could go around waving around a pair of pants, call that sacred and lose my top when someone burns a pair of pants. Ridiculous concept, yes? Of course it is. But that doesn't make it any more right than your argument.

Heretic wrote:TC vilification is the normal these days even you take part in vilifying the people in the tea party or republicans and let us not forget the Christians you you are so afraid of that will take over the US and take away all your womanly rights.

hell, I'm just amused you used the word Hippy in a thread title.