DescentBB

I just watched this fascinating documentary about the history of the separation of church and state in the public schools, the pivotal Supreme Court decision, and how this one lone woman dedicated her life to fight for her principles to get religion out of the public school classroom. If any of you ever see it listed on PBS, I highly recommend watching it. Very interesting history. So interesting, I'm going to get the book.

http://www.pbs.org/programs/lord-is-not ... ere-today/

I didn't know that by the 1940's, public schools had "prayer classes". Although mandatory attendance was not "required", failure to attend was a community nonconformity that invited severe ridicule. Any child or parent that didn't want to participate because of differing religious beliefs, Jewish, Atheist, Buddhist, etc., was ostracized publicly by their classmates and the community at large. The way they allowed a child to "sit out" of prayer class was to put them in a desk out in the hallway, all alone, like some dunce or miscreant getting punished. Other kids would then take that as a cue to make fun of and harass those that stayed out of prayer class and the community adults more than often joined the fray. They would label the parents of those children as "Communists" and "Atheists", marking them with a public scarlet letter, giving tacit approval to shun or attack without sympathy.

Bee, you may be especially interested in watching this if it ever gets shown again. It really made me want to thank this woman for all she fought for and succeeded in accomplishing. It really shows the ugly face of a tyrannical majority, even if it's supposed to be made up of kind and loving Christians.

Let's just hope we can keep allah out of the classroom this time around, TC. He and his prophet have been showing up lately in classrooms.

I'll bite a little bit:

1. Consider the historical context - this is around the era of McCarthyism, when everyone was ultra-paranoid about communism and ousted anyone that didn't fit the "American Christian Model."
2. I'd be interested to find out when these "prayer classes" were introduced. My guess is that they came as part of McCarthyism, but I don't have anything to substantiate this.

On the topic of Christians and their crimes:

Theoretically, the name "Christian" means "follower of Christ." If you read up on Christ's life, he made a habit of caring for the outcasts and the social misfits. In fact, he picked his closest disciples from the "low end of the totem pole." Any person who gives themselves the label of Christian and proceeds to make people into outcasts* isn't living up to their self-proclaimed label.

*Note: Christ also didn't make any qualms about calling these same people out for their sin. I know someone's going to bring up how Christians are intolerant of homosexuals or whatever and say that I'm wrong. Christ had a way of pulling the outcast in while at the same time exhorting them to stop sinning. Christians should strive for the same- love everyone, especially the outcast, without excusing their sin - just like the Christian shouldn't try to excuse his/her own sin.

snoopy wrote:Note: Christ also didn't make any qualms about calling these same people out for their sin. I know someone's going to bring up how Christians are intolerant of homosexuals or whatever and say that I'm wrong. Christ had a way of pulling the outcast in while at the same time exhorting them to stop sinning. Christians should strive for the same- love everyone, especially the outcast, without excusing their sin - just like the Christian shouldn't try to excuse his/her own sin.

AGREED

Matthew 7
Judging Others
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

ThunderBunny wrote:Let's just hope we can keep allah out of the classroom this time around, TC. He and his prophet have been showing up lately in classrooms.

I agree with you 100% TB.

Snoopy, I was interested in when this practice started too, so I did some searching. It appears to have been rooted in the very beginnings of our country and took hold over time.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-rel ... 1818/posts

http://www.logtv.com/films/schoolprayer/educate.htm

Some divisive nastiness started up from that the age old conflict between Catholics and Protestants, which began to heat up with Irish and Italian immigrants objecting to compulsory readings from the Protestant King James Version of the Bible. People rioted, fought over it and even died as a result. Sounds like the Troubles in Ireland moved here too.

Also, converting the Indians seemed to be a driving force behind this push for religion as well. That's just nice, tame the Indians with a little Christianity, wipe out their heritage and societies in the process, turn them into good little Christians. Oh, but which flavor of Christianity was better, Catholic or Protestant, and why was the Protestant faith so prominent in shaping American society?

tunnelcat wrote:..
and why was the Protestant faith so prominent in shaping American society?

Just the luck of the draw and some latent racism. The founders were mostly white anglo types that came from protestant background. The ones with the power get to create the new world in their image.
That's my guess anyway. I don't think it's because Protestant juju is any more powerful than Catholic. If King George III had been a devout Catholic the Catholics would have had the dominant presence here when the revolution took hold and you'd be asking why the Catholics were so prominent.

I had a feeling a lot of people skipped American history.

tunnelcat wrote: Oh, but which flavor of Christianity was better, Catholic or Protestant, and why was the Protestant faith so prominent in shaping American society?

most religions had some representation at the colonial outset, but the vast majority of the early settlers who became powerful fell into two camps: The traditional British Protestants(Anglican, Episcopal, etc), represented by the British military governors and such; The more severe Protestant types(Purtian variations up North, Baptists and later Methodists down South) who evolved into the Northern merchant and farming classes and Southern Planters. Thus, when the Revolution was a settled matter, the conservative Protestant types made up the largest power bloc, by religion. I once took a Poli Sci course taught by a guy named David Larson. His core focus of study was that Puritan values and social structures still reflected into the structures of modern society. Not sure I completely agree with the late Dr. Larson's view, but clearly there is some distinct Protestant influences that run very strong to this day.

I think the massive uproar over Janet Jackson's little nipple-slip several years ago is evidence enough that there's still somewhat of a Puritan streak in modern American society.

I think the massive uproar over Janet Jackson's little nipple-slip several years ago is evidence enough that there's still somewhat of a Puritan streak in modern American society.

That was a publicity stunt and no accident. But anyway, yes I think it's a little silly these days to be scandalized by such a thing (though I think most people cover up 'cause they have less than perfect erm...upper bodies? In fact, I wish more GUYS would cover up...ugh...nasty.)

ThunderBunny wrote: In fact, I wish more GUYS would cover up...ugh...nasty.)

one glance my way at the shore last week would have confirmed that opinion, and likely caused permanent psychic scarring.

ThunderBunny wrote:That was a publicity stunt and no accident. But anyway, yes I think it's a little silly these days to be scandalized by such a thing (though I think most people cover up 'cause they have less than perfect erm...upper bodies? In fact, I wish more GUYS would cover up...ugh...nasty.)

Oh God yes. Hell, I don't like going shirtless myself, since I could stand to lose several pounds' worth of flab. But compared to some of the horrors I've seen, I'm a toothpick.

ThunderBunny wrote:

I think the massive uproar over Janet Jackson's little nipple-slip several years ago is evidence enough that there's still somewhat of a Puritan streak in modern American society.

That was a publicity stunt and no accident. But anyway, yes I think it's a little silly these days to be scandalized by such a thing (though I think most people cover up 'cause they have less than perfect erm...upper bodies? In fact, I wish more GUYS would cover up...ugh...nasty.)

you're not joking about that one.

the whole thing was just ridiculously hilarious. "hide your sons and daughters! Avert your eyes! Castrate your fathers! it's the attack of the killer BOOB!"