S&P downgrades US rating from AAA

[TechPro]

Standard and Poor's has downgraded the US credit rating from AAA to "AA+"

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2 ... edit_n.htm

What impact do you think this will have?

[Nightshade]

This is a little how the mounting economic turmoil feels to me now. That lawn is being mown, a neighbour is vacuuming her sitting room, and somewhere within earshot a toddler is squealing expectantly at the first notes of the ice-cream van. The urban symphony comes no more soothingly mellifluous than this. But even to someone like me, who might as well be seven for all he comprehends of macroeconomics, a distant air-raid siren pierces the serenity.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... looms.html

An editorial that is echoing the mood now gripping the entire world- not just the USA.

[dissent]

I heard a comment that some entities may have to unload some bonds if they were required to be AAA.

Should be a lively week.

[woodchip]

Bigger question is how it will affect the govt. ability to borrow money and how much interest they may have to pay,

[CUDA]

no the bigger question is. Was the Tea Party right???
S&P warned us to make 4T in cuts if we wanted to keep our AAA rating. in our arrogance we chose to only make a 2T cut. the results!!! the Stock Market plummets and S&P lowers our credit score. Good choice Washington

now the question is will Moody's follow suite?

[woodchip]

I for one think we can lay the blame for this at one mans feet. No, not Obama, but Harry Reid for tabling the Cut,Cap and Balance bill. How one man can wield so much power to the detriment of this country is beyond me. It will be curious now to see how the talking heads spin the downgrade.

[CUDA]

so what your saying is. we have a President that has no plan, and a Senator that doesn't know a good plan. so we better plan for some hard times.


I'm still trying to figure out the Washington math. they say they are making 2T in cuts over 10 years, but yet our deficit is going to go up 8T over the same period. so let me get this correct

14T - 2T + 8T = 20T I fail to see the cuts in that equation. UNLESS what they mean by cuts, is cuts to my income to have to pay off this Washington math.

[null0010]

I for one think we can lay the blame for this at one mans feet. No, not Obama, but Harry Reid for tabling the Cut,Cap and Balance bill. How one man can wield so much power to the detriment of this country is beyond me. It will be curious now to see how the talking heads spin the downgrade.

Harry Reid is certainly holding a large share of the blame for this insanity, but I think it would be ridiculous to not hold Pelosi, Boehner and McConnell responsible as well.

[dissent]

5 Easy-to-Understand Effects of a Downgrade

Ed Morrissey takes a look at these 5 effects.

...The anger is mainly misdirected. The media wants to blame the Tea Party, but the Tea Party wants to solve the actual problem — overspending and overcommitment to entitlement programs. The Tea Party wants to blame the Obama administration, and it deserves some blame for refusing to address the real structural problems of the US fiscal condition. But that fiscal structure far predates Barack Obama, both as President and as human being, and Congresses and White Houses of both parties have done little to address the real problems in Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security.

Why? Because as soon as people try to do so, demagogues accuse them of wanting to push Grandma over a cliff. Voters respond by punishing the reformers and rewarding the demagogues. If we collectively want to blame someone, we collectively should be looking in a mirror.

[Dakatsu]

I for one think we can lay the blame for this at one mans feet. No, not Obama, but Harry Reid for tabling the Cut,Cap and Balance bill. How one man can wield so much power to the detriment of this country is beyond me. It will be curious now to see how the talking heads spin the downgrade.

Harry Reid is certainly holding a large share of the blame for this insanity, but I think it would be ridiculous to not hold Pelosi, Boehner and McConnell responsible as well.

The whole Congress is to blame for this. When there's a crisis, you get together and compromise. The whole thing didn't even guarantee the pitiful 2.8T cuts, as only 1T has been decided. From the Simpson-Dowles, Gang of Six, and hence, nobody has been able to come up with a compromise, so how is this Super-Committee going to do any better?

Of course, the Republicans suck even worse like typical, by blocking any form of revenue increase. Lapsing the damn rich tax cuts would fix 1T of our problem. But that doesn't excuse the Democrats for any of this crap.

Whatever, my rant is over. On the bright side, this deal is a small start... at least it isn't nothing...

Oh, and I like this thread that was criticizing Obama for calling Congress "pre-pubescent schoolgirls." Take a look at this:

Seventy-seven percent of Americans said elected officials in Washington had behaved like "spoiled children" in their recent dealings with the debt ceiling; just 17 percent said that they had behaved like responsible adults.

[callmeslick]

no the bigger question is. Was the Tea Party right???
S&P warned us to make 4T in cuts if we wanted to keep our AAA rating. in our arrogance we chose to only make a 2T cut. the results!!! the Stock Market plummets and S&P lowers our credit score. Good choice Washington

now the question is will Moody's follow suite?

the answer to the last one is a clear cut NO, for the time being. Bear in mind, S and P has a terrible track record, having graded a lot of mortgage securities at AAA. Further, in a late clarification, they seemed to put the blame for the downgrade clearly in the lap of the intransigent Tea Party.

[callmeslick]

I for one think we can lay the blame for this at one mans feet. No, not Obama, but Harry Reid for tabling the Cut,Cap and Balance bill. How one man can wield so much power to the detriment of this country is beyond me. It will be curious now to see how the talking heads spin the downgrade.

The cut cap and balance bill was probably the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read. It would have forced the nation to either default or to pass an Amendment that coupled with the rest of the bill would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

[null0010]

The cut cap and balance bill was probably the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read. It would have forced the nation to either default or to pass an Amendment that coupled with the rest of the bill would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

I preferred the Gang of Six bill, myself.

[flip]

would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

Yep. We know where the heart is now . The problem with most these guys is they live in different worlds than most of us and are totally cut off from reality. I bet not once in their lives have they ever been trying to beat time and pay the light bill, just to have your whole house go dark on you one hour before you secure the money. Then you have to pay more for them to remotely turn your power back on because your a derelict I guess. Dumbasses need to create a ton of jobs before they even consider cutting these programs, but these assholes can't represent the majority of the population because most have never suffered a day in their lives.

[CUDA]

Further, in a late clarification, they seemed to put the blame for the downgrade clearly in the lap of the intransigent Tea Party.

ya that in ts self is total BS. blaming the Tea party for what should have been done DECADES ago because congress didn't have the sack to do it is cowardice. this is all of our fault. Gov and Civilian alike and has been for decades. it's congress's fault for kicking the can down the road since FDR and not passing a balanced budget amendment and living with-in their means. which every state in the Union has to do but 1. just so they could keep their sorry ass in power.
and It's our fault for not as a people demanding such. and for standing there with our hands held out expecting something that we didn't earn. WE as a people are destroying this nation.

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Abraham Lincoln

these are the premise that the Tea party stands on

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson

[Will Robinson]

... Bear in mind, S and P has a terrible track record, having graded a lot of mortgage securities at AAA.

.. Further, in a late clarification, they seemed to put the blame for the downgrade clearly in the lap of the intransigent Tea Party.

Well, if your reporting is true, they are nothing if not consistent then. Putting the blame on the tea party for the downgrade is ridiculous unless it was the tea party that spent all the revenue and then committed to spending even more in the face of a failing economy!
Without changing the trend in congress to spend too much we are doomed to an inevitable downgrade on our way to complete collapse and nothing the tea party members in congress proposed can be the cause of that! The tea party members in congress merely resisted the desire of some to postpone making the dificult choices until after the presidential election! (Gee, I wonder who would even dare to postpone it for personal reasons considering the dire situation? You would have to be a really selfish pig to do that!)

The downgrade is not the result of tea party congressmen, it is a result of decades of congressmen on both sides of the isle taking tax revenue and squandering it on buying themselves favors and votes instead of spending it wisely in the best interest of the citizens.
Any attempt to deflect away from the real cause as I described it is an attempt to cover the ass of someone responsible for the problem.

[Will Robinson]

.. The cut cap and balance bill was probably the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read. It would have forced the nation to either default or to pass an Amendment that coupled with the rest of the bill would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

That is total bull★■◆●! eliminating SS and MC certainly is one way to cut spending but it is not the only way to have the budget balanced! Complete bull★■◆● democrat party demagoguery.

[callmeslick]

The cut cap and balance bill was probably the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read. It would have forced the nation to either default or to pass an Amendment that coupled with the rest of the bill would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

I preferred the Gang of Six bill, myself.

actually, the Special Commission proposal would be the most responsible way to go. Everyone gives up a little something in return for a pretty stable economic platform for several decades out.

[callmeslick]

.. The cut cap and balance bill was probably the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read. It would have forced the nation to either default or to pass an Amendment that coupled with the rest of the bill would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

That is total ****! eliminating SS and MC certainly is one way to cut spending but it is not the only way to have the budget balanced! Complete **** democrat party demagoguery.

no, it isn't. There is NO WAY to reduce spending to the mandated %of GDP on the timetable in the bill, balance the budget and prohibit significant revenue increases without either eliminating SS and Medicare,
or eliminating the Dept of Defense. Guess which would happen?

[woodchip]

I for one think we can lay the blame for this at one mans feet. No, not Obama, but Harry Reid for tabling the Cut,Cap and Balance bill. How one man can wield so much power to the detriment of this country is beyond me. It will be curious now to see how the talking heads spin the downgrade.

The cut cap and balance bill was probably the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read. It would have forced the nation to either default or to pass an Amendment that coupled with the rest of the bill would have completely eliminated Social Security and Medicare within 5 years of passage. Loony stuff.

Perhaps you are reading looney stuff from some lefty loon site. Here is what I found:

"July 15, 2011

Cuts total spending by $111 billion in FY 2012. The savings is divided as follows:

Reduce non-security discretionary spending below 2008 levels, which saves $76 billion.
$35 billion cut to non-veterans, non-Medicare, non-Social Security mandatory spending.
Defense budget at President’s level. "

http://www.gop.gov/policy-news/11/07/15/the-cut-cap


I don't see any cutting of SS or Medicare. Care to link where you got your info from?

[Spidey]

Blaming the people who want to fix the problem = LOL.

Notice everything was good…until the “ceiling crisis” was over, then the realization that there will be more out of control long term debt set in……

[Tunnelcat]

I heard a comment that some entities may have to unload some bonds if they were required to be AAA.

Should be a lively week.

Let me put on my tin hat here. The S and P downgrades our credit rating. The very same S and P that gave AAA status to all those mortgage backed securities that were actually loaded with worthless junk and sold to unsuspecting investors and which created the first recession and bailout mess. Since most pension funds are required to have AAA rated bonds in their portfolios, they will now have to start unloading those newly downgraded AA+ rated bonds into the market. The market will sweep up all these cherry bonds like sharks for just a song. When the powers to be decide to increase our credit rating, bingo, someone will own some very valuable bonds that they essentially stole from someone else's pension fund. Nice.

[CUDA]

that's an entirely possible scenario TC. time will tell. however we knew this was coming back in April. it could have been prevented. it was our governments own arrogance that brought us to this point.

[Tunnelcat]

that's an entirely possible scenario TC. time will tell. however we knew this was coming back in April. it could have been prevented. it was our governments own arrogance that brought us to this point.

No, it's all this country's greedy Plutarch's and Corporations and their constant manipulation of our government for their own gains that's brought this mess about, under the auspices of both parties too, but mostly Republicans. The Dems sat around like fat, cowering, little lazy idiots and let it happen with their own greed. Even the tea party is just an arm of a wealthy former government U.S. Representative and insider, Dick Armey and his cronies at Americans for Prosperity. Suckers. The Republicans got 98% of what they wanted in the debt talks and STILL pouted about it because they didn't get ALL of what they wanted. That's not compromise, that's extortion. Spoiled brats.

Don't you think that Cut, Cap and Balance would become an inconvenience to the Republicans if they were to come in power in the future? Might have put a crimp in Bushie's War Plans if it was enacted years ago when they wanted the money flowing freely back then. They wouldn't have liked it one little bit when they were spending like drunken sailors on those 2 wars and escalating the debt, then suddenly running out of dinero when they needed it to placate seniors during the next election when the debt ceiling hit the fan and the Medicare crisis started becoming apparent. They would have been champing at the bit to repeal it with some lame excuse that it was needed to help the economy and get that oh-so-powerful senior lobby on their side. Oh wait, the tin hatter in me thinks that the Plutarchs will be mucho happy when Republicans and tea partiers win in 2012 and reward them for their efforts at destroying those commie Democrats. THEN the economy will magically rebound anyway. Convenient. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

They've probably brought down Obama in 2012 and destroyed the government in the process, which is what they've always wanted to do since Obama was elected anyway, and not by lifting an inconvenient finger to help this nation or our President, even a third of the way in the very least. Nice platform for a party. And you think that's ALL the Dems fault! Well, partially. I blame them with willful neglect and cowardice.

In fact, this point in history is probably when much of our troubles now may have begun, resulting from an artifact of paying for WWII (which is touted with finally ending the Depression) and the Vietnam War and Nixon decoupling the dollar and gold to "fix" his economy. A desperate Republican policy and a conservative's unwavering faith that the free market will always do right.

Nixon Shock

Edit: Just read in Business Week, but not online at the moment, that all this BS with the S and P downgrade is the result of a spat with Congress and specifically, the Dodd Frank Bill. The Dodd Frank Bill forces these rating agencies to take responsibility for their ratings, or specifically, when their ratings are inaccurate and cause major economic hiccups. Not something they want after the AAA mortgage-backed security ratings they issued in the past. So now in essence, we're taking the fall for the temper tantrum they're having with Congress.

[Will Robinson]

...
There is NO WAY to reduce spending to the mandated %of GDP on the timetable in the bill, balance the budget and prohibit significant revenue increases without either eliminating SS and Medicare,
or eliminating the Dept of Defense. Guess which would happen?

There was no way to fund ObamaCare without putting those other programs at risk either...but you didn't call ObamaCare "the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read." did you?

Partisan motivated selective outrage and hyperbolic party rhetoric is all you have.

[Spidey]

Partisan motivated selective outrage and hyperbolic party rhetoric is all you have.

Or, as I like to call it…Agenda Driven Propaganda.

[CUDA]

The Republicans got 98% of what they wanted in the debt talks and STILL pouted about it because they didn't get ALL of what they wanted. That's not compromise, that's extortion. Spoiled brats.

ya you keep listening to the Daily Kos on that one. the GOP proposed 2 bills. that when they reached the Senate Harry Reid was too much of a coward to put to the floor for a debate. IN FACT both he and the president declared them DOA BEFORE they even knew what was in them. so tell me who was the spoiled brats in that scenario. it wasn't until the 11th hour that the DNC even offered a plan, and again true to form, and a form that you personally follow to the letter. they didn't debate the issues. they didn't try to resolve the issue. they just called the Republicans names and blamed all the countries problems on GW. it's something the the left is has become VERY good at. don't face to problem they don't debate problems, they don't propose solutions to problems. Just try to discredit the other side and hope the stupid people out there will believe them.

Don't you think that Cut, Cap and Balance would become an inconvenience to the Republicans if they were to come in power in the future?

God I hope so.

They've probably brought down Obama in 2012

Nah he did that himself. Obama has shown 4 consistent things through out his Presidency
1. he has no leadership skills
2. he has not executive management skills
3. he's an excellent fund raiser
4. he can give speeches that blame the Republicans for his failures.

and destroyed the government in the process, which is what they've always wanted to do since Obama was elected anyway, and not by lifting an inconvenient finger to help this nation or our President, even a third of the way in the very least. Nice platform for a party. And you think that's ALL the Dems fault! Well, partially. I blame them with willful neglect and cowardice.

ya it's ALL the big bad GOP's fault. it had NOTHING to do with the fact the the DNC who had unfetter control of all 3 legislative houses of the government for the first 2 years of Obama's presidency couldn't even manage the simple task of passing a Budget. OH FYI its been almost 850 days now and we are still waiting for the senate to pass a budget. but it must be the GOP's fault again right????

In fact, this point in history is probably when much of our troubles now may have begun, resulting from an artifact of paying for WWII (which is touted with finally ending the Depression) and the Vietnam War and Nixon decoupling the dollar and gold to "fix" his economy. A desperate Republican policy and a conservative's unwavering faith that the free market will always do right.

OK lets look at History!!!! who had Majority control over the congress and proposed the the bulk of the spending during those years??

year Pres House Senate
1993 103rd D D - 57 D - 258
1991 102nd R D - 56 D - 267
1989 101st R D - 55 D - 260
1987 100th R D - 55 D - 258
1985 99th R R - 53 D - 253
1983 98th R R - 54 D - 269
1981 97th R R - 53 D - 242
1979 96th D D - 58 D - 277
1977 95th D D - 61 D - 292
1975 94th R D - 60 D -291
1973 93rd R D - 56 D - 242
1971 92nd R D - 54 D - 255
1969 91st R D - 57 D - 243
1967 90th D D - 64 D - 247
1965 89th D D - 68 D - 295
1963 88th D D - 66 D - 259
1961 87th D D - 64 D - 263
1959 86th R D - 65 D -283
1957 85th R D - 49 D - 232
1955 84th R D - 48 D - 232
1953 83rd R R - 48 D - 221
1951 82nd D D - 49 D - 235
1949 81st D D - 54 D - 263
1947 80th D R - 51 R - 246
1945 79th D D - 57 D - 242

[callmeslick]

. Putting the blame on the tea party for the downgrade is ridiculous unless it was the tea party that spent all the revenue and then committed to spending even more in the face of a failing economy!

didn't read the clarification, did you? They stated that the issue was a lack of the ability to actually get anything done, due to intransigent ideologically driven politicians.....nothing to do with what you rant about above.

[woodchip]

. Putting the blame on the tea party for the downgrade is ridiculous unless it was the tea party that spent all the revenue and then committed to spending even more in the face of a failing economy!

didn't read the clarification, did you? They stated that the issue was a lack of the ability to actually get anything done, due to intransigent ideologically driven politicians.....nothing to do with what you rant about above.

You know Slick you are reminding me of the movie "Dumb and Dumber". Excerpt from S&P pdf on why they downgraded with link:

"The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan
that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of
what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's
medium-term debt dynamics"

"More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness,
stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political
institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic
challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a
negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011."

"Our lowering of the rating was prompted by our view on the rising public
debt burden and our perception of greater policymaking uncertainty, consistent
with our criteria (see "Sovereign Government Rating Methodology and Assumptions
," June 30, 2011, especially Paragraphs 36-41)."

http://www.standardandpoors.com/servlet ... lue3=UTF-8

The Tea Party members were in fact trying to combat the above conditions and the real intransigents were the hang dog leadership of both parties and Obama's completely sophomoric handling of the whole mess. End result. For the first time in this countries history, our credit rating is down graded and will be further down graded:

"The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the
long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if we see that less
reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new
fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government
debt trajectory than we currently assume in our base case."

I seriously propose we get more Tea Party people in office before we become a third world nation like the one Hugo Chavez is ruining.

[Will Robinson]

. Putting the blame on the tea party for the downgrade is ridiculous unless it was the tea party that spent all the revenue and then committed to spending even more in the face of a failing economy!

didn't read the clarification, did you? They stated that the issue was a lack of the ability to actually get anything done, due to intransigent ideologically driven politicians.....nothing to do with what you rant about above.

Actually I listened to the interview before reading your 'interpretation' of it. You said 'they blamed the tea party', what the man said was he put it on two things, 'one- the congress' inability to put the government on the right course due to gridlock. and two- the general course the government has been on overall.'

That is a long way from blaming the tea party for the downgrade as you claimed he said!

You, being the elite democrat, see the resistance to your party as the problem and so you can rationalize a scenario where any gridlock is the complete fault of whatever is in the way of your party's plan.
Most of us, being at least slightly more objective, recognize that it takes two or more factions to create gridlock in Congress. Example, Harry Reid and President Obama are just as much of a cause for gridlock as the tea party congressmen if not more. Reid/Obama stopped/threatened veto of bills to prevent them from even being debated while offering no solution of their own. Of course in your party elite view the Reid and Obama are above scrutiny therefore their machinations don't qualify as contributing to gridlock thus your silly conclusion that any gridlock in Congress can only be the fault of opposition to your party's desires.

Now, to the point I was making that you have managed to miss or chose to dodge. The cause for the downgrade is not the recent process of debating where to set the debt ceiling!
That would be like your wife who is running up your credit cards to the limit saying the reason you are going into debt is the debt limit on the cards needs to be raised!! Newsflash! It's your wife's spending not the debate between you and your wife over the level of your credit limit that is the cause!!

Investors are growing increasingly wary of our financial health and that is the cause of any downgrade we get. The reason they question our financial health is our ratio of GDP/revenue to debt. That ratio has been getting further and further out of balance for decades not because of any foodfight in congress last week! You need to give up the party talking points and deal with the reality of the situation if you want to have any kind of useful dialogue.

[CUDA]

the thing that bothers me about slicks position is he is standing firmly on how it will hurt the needy if we need to make cuts. NO ★■◆● but if we do not make voluntary cuts now which will hurt people. we will eventually be forced to make mandatory cuts which will devastate not only the people of this nation but the entire population of the world. we cannot forget that the monetary currency of this planet is the dollar. if the US is forced to default because we cannot stop our spending rampage. it will take down the GLOBAL economy and cause world wide devastation. congress needs to get their heads out of their collective butts and cut our debit. and I mean real cuts not this BS political cuts which actually increase spending just not as much as they would like.

[callmeslick]

the thing that bothers me about slicks position is he is standing firmly on how it will hurt the needy if we need to make cuts. NO **** but if we do not make voluntary cuts now which will hurt people. we will eventually be forced to make mandatory cuts which will devastate not only the people of this nation but the entire population of the world. we cannot forget that the monetary currency of this planet is the dollar. if the US is forced to default because we cannot stop our spending rampage. it will take down the GLOBAL economy and cause world wide devastation. congress needs to get their heads out of their collective butts and cut our debit. and I mean real cuts not this BS political cuts which actually increase spending just not as much as they would like.

no, as Slick said elsewhere(recently, you probably didn't read it), the solution to the problem is pretty simple.

1. Raise the SS taxation limit on income. Hasn't been done in years. $250,000 is reasonable.

2. Restore the revenue levels to the amounts before the Bush tax cuts, preferably by a major overhaul of the
bloated tax laws.

3. Cut defense spending by 50%, but not to start until 2017-2020, so as to not cause more upheaval in
a weak jobs market. We don't need to outspend the rest of the damned planet to maintain a perfectly
functional defense of the nation.

problem solved, and it won't come on the backs of the poor, the elderly, or our grandchildren.


You know, I have to say one thing......the reason I've always liked CUDA is that his avatar pic is a photo
of one of America's great liberal cause benefactors. Clint's da man!

[callmeslick]

I don't see any cutting of SS or Medicare. Care to link where you got your info from?

go read the entire bill yourself. In it, you will see(as you already know) the requirement that we pass a Balanced Budget amendment. Coupled is a provision that mandates that Federal Spending be lowered, year by year, to 18% of GDP. Given the assumption that GDP growth is bound to be anemic for quite a while more, beyond virtually anyone's control, by the time you get to about 20%, you would have to either slash defense spending by over half, or eliminate Medicare and Social Security. The numbers simply don't add up otherwise. Several economists have stated as much, but I came to that one simply by reading the bill and doing the math.

[callmeslick]

There was no way to fund ObamaCare without putting those other programs at risk either...but you didn't call ObamaCare "the single most idiotic piece of legislation I have ever read." did you?

no, but I did say, on this forum, that I thought it was a mess of a bill. I much prefer Medicare to be extended to all with a dedicated tax increase that would be FAR less than most Americans pay for premiums. That would be the single biggest boost to American employers that could be imagined and would probably lead to a huge increase in domestic employment.

Partisan motivated selective outrage and hyperbolic party rhetoric is all you have.

hardly......it seems that a pantload of crap is all you bring to the table at times, however. For instance, your keen analysis for the downgrade. It isn't the deficit, it is the conclusion(drawn by S and P) that the US political system is incapable of developing and sticking with a plan to solve it. Currently, the process is completely stalled by one group of ignorant buffoons: the Tea Party caucus. Say what you want, but folks who think bond default is OK are not only wrong, but borderline treasonous.

[CUDA]

problem solved, and it won't come on the backs of the poor, the elderly, or our grandchildren.

to what end. as our Debit to GDP ratio continues to increase, so will the tax burden on the populace to maintain those entitlements, and even in your utopia eventually we will reach a limit to what can be taxed and then what happens.

We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. Winston Churchill

“You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is the beginning of the end of any nation.. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”

[callmeslick]

to what end. as our Debit to GDP ratio continues to increase, so will the tax burden on the populace to maintain those entitlements, and even in your utopia eventually we will reach a limit to what can be taxed and then what happens.

why? My framework should be perfectly sustainable. Plus, for those of you who like to think even further out, after the boomers die, you have a relatively small generation to be supported by a larger one behind that
(my grandchildren's generation). What we are really trying to deal with is a large population of aging baby-boomers, not some sort of endemic issue.

your quotes are cute, but both a pretty much an arrogant pair of manifestos in defense of the wealthy.

[CUDA]

David Beers, global head of sovereign and international public finance ratings at S&P, told "Fox News Sunday" that governments and Congresses come and go, but spending on entitlements persistently drags U.S. debt further into the red.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/08 ... z1UMeNUvkv

[callmeslick]

Beers is either dead wrong, or only speaking of the next two decades.

[Will Robinson]

...
For instance, your keen analysis for the downgrade. It isn't the deficit,

I never said it was the deficit! I said it was the ratio of our GDP/Revenue to the debt. That is the factor they look at when deciding if we can keep paying our commitments. Go back and re-read it.

...it is the conclusion(drawn by S and P) that the US political system is incapable of developing and sticking with a plan to solve it.

Yes....and I quoted that when I pointed out the SP spokesman didn't say, as you implied that it was the tea party that caused the downgrade. If you would think for a moment about what you posted there, the inability to develop and stick to something isn't demonstrated in a standoff that only happened a few days ago! It is the long term trend of just raising the debt ceiling and issuing more bonds in spite of our reduced revenue stream! That tendency they cite as the cause is something they watched over years and years. For your assertion that it was this recent little standoff that caused the downgrade you would have to show how they also issued a downgrade every other time the government was temporarily shut down by a standoff in Congress.

Say what you want, but folks who think bond default is OK are not only wrong, but borderline treasonous.

The tea party congressmen didn't make default on the debt their goal so your rhetoric is weak. They made other stipulations before they would go along with raising the debt ceiling, balanced budget amendment clause, cuts, caps, etc. You can debate the wisdom of their extreme stance all you want but first you have to be willing to acknowledge what they did offer and what they didn't hold out for. They didn't hold out for default, that wasn't the goal and even Obama, when faced with the prospect of the republicans not flinching had to tell the banks and wallstreet that the U.S. wouldn't default.
At least the stipulations the teaparty guys held to were ones that actually address the real problem....spending! Obama had one stipulation...push it past his re-election date! You have no solid ground to stand on if you want to keep selling that dem party line crap.

[Spidey]

The “crisis” brought the bigger problem into focus, so yea…you could blame the tea party for that, and as it were…blame the messenger.