DescentBB

The beast that once was

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come

If the Bible continually, and accurately predicts the future. Is it viable to investigate it and see what else is predicted? I will not be astonished I know the rhyme and reason now

since when is the Bible some great predictor of the future? Folks read what they wish into. Heck, some clown in California was SURE the Bible said the Earth was going to end, on a date certain, and made the same claim three different times. Show me where the Bible, taken without a lot of 'this stands for' and 'what this symbolizes' and other such supposition and boorah, is any more of a predictative than Nostradamus, the ancient Mayans or Aztec's prophesies, various Asian seers and sacred texts. I am hardly accepting of your basic premise, so the quoted part is unconvincing, personally.

I will give you reference's on one condition, you must demonstrate a working knowledge of the Word. Otherwise, it's a waste of time. Why would I share my knowledge with someone who has not even chosen to educate themselves on the matter?

flip wrote:...you must demonstrate a working knowledge of the Word.

In other words, "You must interpret vague ramblings the way I interpret them, which is certainly not the only interpretation but the one most meaningful to me."

Ok, Vision doesn't believe it. Noted.

EDIT: I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. Could Vision at least give his own interpretation, or has he even read it? That's where I'm getting at. If you don't believe it, fine but have you at least read it? If not, why bother.

flip wrote:I will give you reference's on one condition, you must demonstrate a working knowledge of the Word. Otherwise, it's a waste of time. Why would I share my knowledge with someone who has not even chosen to educate themselves on the matter?

heck, one can see that as being tighly defined by one's theological environment. I suspect your understanding of the Word would even vary widely from CUDA's, or Thorne's, or a host of other perfectly acceptable Christians. Send your references along, I was raised and educated Methodist, spent a bit of time in Baptist churches, studied a couple semesters Comparative Theology and generally can read for comprehension, and context. That's the best I can offer.

I nterpret that to say you dismissed it early on and on the word of others. Basically a copout, or you would be throwing things at me you think are in error or contradictions, but that's not what your doing. Your concealing your lack of knowledge on what the word says by vague reasoning. How far of a discussion can that go? It's right where Vision leaves us, a statement of belief and no way to go forward. What's the point again?

flip wrote:I nterpret that to say you dismissed it early on and on the word of others. Basically a copout, or you would be throwing things at me you think are in error or contradictions, but that's not what your doing. Your concealing your lack of knowledge on what the word says by vague reasoning. How far of a discussion can that go? It's right where Vision leaves us, a statement of belief and no way to go forward. What's the point again?

am I hallucinating or aren't YOU the one who started this thread? In so doing, you immediately claimed the astounding accuracy of Biblical predictions. I suspect you are wrong. Prove it. Further, the title you yourself gave the thread aimed it at 'unbelievers'. Then, two respond and you declare us incapable of understanding your 'truth'. Nice work, go to the head of your debate class......

Heh, you want me to condense 1500 years worth of literary works? I asked you where your contention is. Lol.

EDIT: Let's do it this way, find one contradiction or prophecy you think is in error. We'll move from there. Or do you not realize that in a true debate, the one with the least knowledge is bound to fail? I'm trying to help you here.

flip wrote:Heh, you want me to condense 1500 years worth of literary works? I asked you where your contention is. Lol.

any sort of demonstrable track record of predictions would be a start. You are the one who said that nonbelievers should consider your point. I did, and I don't find the Bible to be very predictive, that I am aware of. Prove me wrong. You seem unwilling to even start to try.

Lol, I said consider the prophecies, my point is that you are not able to on a lack of knowledge about what it really says. Maybe to many cliff notes.

Find one contradiction or prophecy, if you can , and we will go from there.

what Prophecies were made that couldn't be considered vague and obvious.? Heck, the big one in the Old Testament was that a Messiah would arrive, and one major Judeo-Christian branch doesn't feel convinced that THAT one even happened. As was suggested to you, a lot is up for personal belief and interpretation. Back to you, since you made the original claim, show me a cluster of accurate, specific predictions. Start any time.

flip wrote:Find one contradiction or prophecy, if you can , and we will go from there.

How about 439 contradictions?

Hi-Res PDF (1.6MB)

while I suspect that Flip is full of it, I will be fair and point out that most of those on the list of contradictions were of known facts
about things which had already happened. Thus, not prophecy or prediction. A few in there fit the bill, notably rebuilding the Temple in 3 days. If you can't be accurate in a 3-day window, how are we supposed to buy into a few millenia forward?

See what I mean

flip wrote:See what I mean

no, I see a man willing to make a bold statement and then not back it up. Nothing new out of you, Flip, one sees that all the time on the Interweb.......still, I'm sort of done waiting to see you back your assertion. You can't, it's clear, therefore the answer to your original query would be no, there are far more fruitful places to look for accurate predictions. Still, if I had a ton of time, I'd investigate the Bible prophecy when I got the chance.The other point is, any focus on the predictions of fellow men sort of gets in the way of going out and living life, don't you think?

It's pointless, plus I made the challenge. I am the challenger, you were the challengee, but we can not argue these things, because it is foolishness to you and you don't even know the subject matter.

On top of that, I'm pretty sure mine, Cuda's and Thorne's beliefs are starting to line up, they also know what the Lord purchased for us

flip wrote:It's pointless, plus I made the challenge. I am the challenger, you were the challengee, but we can not argue these things, because it is foolishness to you and you don't even know the subject matter.

you'd likely be surprised how well I know the subject matter.........but, then again, it's easier to assume than to find out, huh?

I've asked continuously, more vagueness from you. I suspect your full of it and think that a broad statement will suffice. Maybe sweeping generalizations work whee you come from.

callmeslick wrote:I will be fair and point out that most of those on the list of contradictions were of known facts about things which had already happened. Thus, not prophecy or prediction.

Right. I only posted because he said contradiction or prophecy.


Also, I know the subject matter. I studied the bible intensely when I contemplated joining the ministry. The irony is, the more I read the bible to get closer to God, the more I was repulsed by it. Eventually I left the church after God failed to provide any sign whatsoever, any answer to my prayers that I desperately needed at the time. I didn't want to lose faith. It was pretty traumatic actually. I'm over it now though, as you can see. It was all an illusion to begin with.

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

In your studies, just based on the work itself, leave God out of the question, let's say he doesn't exist. What is the sign of the prophet Jonah?

flip wrote:On top of that, I'm pretty sure mine, Cuda's and Thorne's beliefs are starting to line up, they also know what the Lord purchased for us

who knew that he needed to 'purchase' anything.?......oh, and if you are suggesting that all of you, as a general rule, accept the premise that God sent Jesus to atone for pre-existent sin, and provide an afterlife for those that believe, yes you are probably in line. However, I'd be surprised if you held the exact position on the End Times, future of the Earth, etc. You might, but it would not be uncommon to find 3 very devout Christians with very different views of Biblical prophesy versus allegory.

Again vagueness and generalizations, all you keep saying esentially is that you don't believe it. OK, fine, I'm cool with that. Let me ask you this, why did he die for our sins?

Red herring. Bible can't predict the future. You're now just going to paint everyone as unqualified to have this discussion with you. Old tactics are old. BZZZZZT! Try again.

flip wrote:

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

In your studies, just based on the work itself, leave God out of the question, let's say he doesn't exist. What is the sign of the prophet Jonah?

strictly speaking, you are referring to a period of 3 full days not of this Earth. Many relate this to Jesus' entombment, and the fact that it can be considered that for 3 days, he was apart from God, suffering for Man's sins. This, by the way, would actually be an unproven prophecy, as there are historians aplenty who doubt the period of time in a tomb, or if Jesus ever really was entombed.
(hey, you said leave God out of it....)

flip wrote:Let me ask you this, why did he die for our sins?

prove that he did

Heh, nope.

I bet the believers have a grasp though. It's all about getting a body when this one dies Slick. Real simple. If you believe it, you live in such a way as to attain it, if not, then don't.

flip wrote:I bet the believers have a grasp though. It's all about getting a body when this one dies Slick. Real simple. If you believe it, you live in such a way as to attain it, if not, then don't.

unless, of course, you adhere to the Calvinist Model(every bit as valid as yours, by the way). In that case, God has long ago figured out who is going to live after death, and your lifestyle and life-choices are but possible signposts that you have been pre-ordained.
In some variants, the key marker is financial success, so by that measure, Donald Trump is going to heaven long before you, and heck, I don't even believe than for a moment.......

Even science believes it

If you can take atoms and split them into energy, can you then take energy and turn it into matter? If they do, will it also become alive?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore, my Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, hā‘almāh [the young woman or virgin] hārāh [is pregnant or is about to become pregnant or shall conceive], and bear a son, and qārāṯ [she shall call or (female) you shall call] his name Immanuel."

Science says that matter and energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.Everyone will live, but only the Creator can provide a body.

EDIT:Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Man is made primarily of carbon. 6 protons, 6 electrons, and 6 neutrons.

20 years ago, with Dolly the Sheep, I knew he would be a clone.

The door is a woman's womb. The legal and rightful way to enter this world.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ

flip wrote:Science says that matter and energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.Everyone will live, but only the Creator can provide a body.

EDIT:Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Man is made primarily of carbon. 6 protons, 6 electrons, and 6 neutrons.

...holy ★■◆●. What are you smoking, and can I have some?

Is not carbon 6 protons 6 neutrons and 6 electrons?
Can matter or energy be created or destroyed?


All Christians set your mind on the prize. A glorified body that can change from matter to energy to matter to energy. No longer hedged in and confined to this world, but one that can explore all of God's creation.

I don't mind being a fool. When I get that body I'm going exploring

Dude...the thing's you're attempting to connect here have nothing to do with each other, and nothing to do with the faith tenets you're attempting to staple them to. There isn't any reason in your line of "reasoning." I can't really put it any clearer than that.

Like what?

I'm just professing belief that Jesus died for my sins so that I could receive a new glorified body.
Maybe, you should examine your own beliefs.

EDIT: If you have an inkling of belief in that, do you think it just gonna be magic or something, or can you look around at what has already been created to get an idea, or shadow , of things to come? I know you believe in God TG.