DescentBB

I'm putting this in E&C because I mean for it to get a bit philosophical.

Do you guys think that, in this universe, life exists that didn't originate on Earth?

[EDIT] I voted no.

I'd like to see an "I don't know" answer. Or are you limiting it to best-guess?

I believe it's very improbable that we are the only intelligent beings in the universe. I believe there are aliens out there. What they look like or how smart they are doesn't matter.

I've also thought of aliens being the reason we are here. Like they left some DNA here millions of years ago and over time it grew to beings.

Just my 2 cents.

Foil wrote:I'd like to see an "I don't know" answer. Or are you limiting it to best-guess?

Best guess. If everyone's going to be scientific about it, the answer is "we don't know." - but that doesn't make for a very interesting discussion.

I'll choose "I don't know" too.

EDIT: Well, in that case, I think it's very possible. I don't really really want to make this into another Creation/Evolution debate because I think those 2 sides co-exist perfectly. As a Christian, I have to believe in other lifeforms in whatever capacity they exist, but I think man is particular to Earth.

agreed that 'I don't know' is the only real answer any of us could give. Still, as was stated, the odds that life of some form doesn't exist out in the Universe are huge. Just too many possibilities.
I voted, btw, for the 'out there, but hasn't gotten here yet' option, but, frankly, that is but a guess.

Here's my take on it:

This kind of gets back to the whole origins questions, so, from the two different sides of that debate:

From an evolutionary origins standpoint, I buy into the specified complexity argument that IDers have concerning life coming into being. From a philosophical standpoint, you can get around it by theorizing that many parallel universes exist.... but, if you're limiting yourself to this universe, as I am, that part doesn't apply. So, then I think you're looking at pure statistics with a limited set of tries.... statistically speaking, that fact that life arose on the earth goes way against the odds (like I said, assuming the specified complexity criteria). For it to have happened twice is like lightning striking a million times in the same spot... I'll bet on the odds even though they let us down once by spawning life on earth.

From a creating God standpoint: I don't see why He would have done the whole creating life thing twice, and not bothered to mention it to us. I won't put it beyond possibility, but I just feel like God would have told us about the other "earth" with life on it if He had created it.


.....Now, if we open up the possibility of an infinite number of universes, then I guarantee that life exists elsewhere in some universe.

[EDIT] now we have something to talk about... are there so many chances that it's inevitable to have happened elsewhere, too, or are there so few changes that it couldn't have happened elsewhere, too?

given the number of stars and solar systems in the Universe, the possibility that a carbon or silicon based life system wouldn't evolve in the billions of years since the formation of the Universe is almost so small as to be negligible.

snoopy wrote:Here's my take on it:

From a creating God standpoint: I don't see why He would have done the whole creating life thing twice, and not bothered to mention it to us. I won't put it beyond possibility, but I just feel like God would have told us about the other "earth" with life on it if He had created it.

Why would God have to tell us anything? What would be his motive in telling us? What if humans to him a just pets and he wanted more on a different planet?

Contact was one of my favorite movies and what Jodie Foster said at the end to the kids about there being millions of stars and if there was no other life, it seems to be a big waste of space.

Snoopy I see Evolution as a big misconception today but with alot of basis. It's more accurate, in my opinion, to not look at evolution as a slow process, but kinda like wiping the slate clean each time. We start at the Cambrian Explosion, every known phyla is present all at once, before that nothing but wormlike creatures, then ever since then a reduction in the numbers of species. That's why I put so much emphasis on atmospheric conditions. Since the Cambrian event until now, 99% of everything that existed is now extinct. Mostly from huge world-wide catastrophic events. Each time there was a big change in the atmosphere, the same basis for life would evolve, but under different circumstances, so it would evolve differently, but all from the same foundation. That's also why I don't agree with Merlin's assessment of God. I think He was having a great time until He made us. Throughout the whole Bible, that is the only instance where God actually regrets making something, and I think it has alot to do with the fact that we are so similar to Him. In His compassion He won't just wipe the slate clean this time. I also see a huge, unexplored Universe and to limit His creativity to just this one planet does seem like a huge waste of space.

Another question: Is this limited to extraterrestrial life now? Or does it include the possibility of life which already died out / is yet to exist?

[ Edit: I answered as a best-guess: "Yes, but the aliens just haven't figured out how to get here to earth yet", but I would put it more like this:
"Yes, but the aliens are unaware of us, or they are unable/uninterested in travelling to or contacting Earth." ]

Since most cosmologists now favor the infinite flat model of the universe, that seems to make life inevitable no matter how unlikely. But if the speed of light proves to be the ultimate barrier to space travel (or perhaps some other limiting barrier past that that we don't know about yet), then we may never be able to find such life.

what Jeff said. There is life out there but we're never going to meet it.

it's EXTREMELY clear to everyone browsing these forums that there is alien life in the universe

I don’t really understand the concept of God telling man that he created life on other planets, there is just way too much that God never bothered to tell man.

Where should I start…wow

The earth is not flat and supported by 4 posts.
There are more than 4 elements…

Ok, this is silly.

no where in the bible does it say life on earth is the only life. that's just man's arrogance to believe that.

and on the flip side, it might just be God's uniqueness to make man the only life in the universe

It is almost certain that there is life elsewhere in the universe.

The real problem is that it is so rare and far away that for us, it might as well not even exist.

The best we can hope for is to detect a signal of some sort or some kind of chemical marker through reflected light spectra from a planet confirming that something else exists out there.

Our technology is nowhere near the point necessary to pick up such faint traces of life yet.

I think if other alien life exists, they are up there watching us and waiting. The universe is too vast for Earth to be the only planet with intelligent life. I mean, what are the odds that we are all alone among the billions of stars systems?

My theory is that there is some intelligent designer or entity, we usually call God for example, and that we are just one of many planetary experiments with life forms that's being carried out through eternity by this entity. Personally, I think this entity has stepped back from this particular experiment on what we call Earth, and is now letting things progress unhindered to it's inevitable conclusion, chaos and destruction. No experiment is stable forever.

He's probably figured out that even with all the intelligence he gave us, that didn't help those intelligence-endowed life forms he created survive on their own without more input or meddling by the entity. We still live and act no better than the wild animals that surround us. We will eventually destroy our planet, err, God's provided lab dish, Earth, and we'll kill each other off as we over populate the land and can no longer feed ourselves or obtain fresh water. We will then fruitlessly use every last resource frantically trying to come up with some technology to survive. When the experiment is over, he will let the sun go supernova to wipe out all traces of the great failure. Kinda pessimistic, aren't I?

Just throwing this out there because there is no evidence at all of intelligent life elsewhere, but given the amount of time already, you would think they had at least invented the radio by now We may not ever see them but if they are there it's a distinct possibility we could communicate with them.

tunnelcat wrote:I think if other alien life exists, they are up there watching us and waiting.

why? Isn't it far more likely that, like us, they're out there someplace, wondering if other life forms exist?


As for the rest, I don't really buy into the Experimental God theory, so I don't view you as pessimistic, so much as, well, special.

flip wrote:Just throwing this out there because there is no evidence at all of intelligent life elsewhere

heck, there is precious little evidence of intelligent life HERE.

but given the amount of time already, you would think they had at least invented the radio by now We may not ever see them but if they are there it's a distinct possibility we could communicate with them.

given the likelihood that the nearest potential life forms could be far enough away as to require a few hundred thousand years(likely millions) for radio waves to even get here,let alone not accounting for interference along their path, I don't think I would have used the word 'distinct' in that last sentence.

callmeslick wrote:

flip wrote:Just throwing this out there because there is no evidence at all of intelligent life elsewhere

heck, there is precious little evidence of intelligent life HERE.

but given the amount of time already, you would think they had at least invented the radio by now We may not ever see them but if they are there it's a distinct possibility we could communicate with them.

given the likelihood that the nearest potential life forms could be far enough away as to require a few hundred thousand years(likely millions) for radio waves to even get here,let alone not accounting for interference along their path, I don't think I would have used the word 'distinct' in that last sentence.

Heh, I chuckled too myself and let that one go when I wrote that, too easy

Never say never, radio waves do have their limitations across space and time:

"Radio transmitted in 1920 would have gone 90 light years by 2010. How ever there seems to be some question as to how far those waves can travel prior to loss of the ability to detect them. SETI (I THINK) believes that the newest array they have could detect our oldest radio from the 1920s up to or about 50 to 100 light years away. "

But we are right on the brink of using actual light for communications and that opens many new doors. Of course, the other intelligent life would have to be at least as advanced and who knows, as soon as this technology matures we may find they are already broadcasting.

EDIT :http://rense.com/general/sci.htm
I want to substantiate this before further comment but Heck Yeah!!

EDIT:Seems legitimate. I've found several good sources. Man, the implications as far as communication is concerned are overwhelming.

Um, flip, Radio is light. It's all part of the same EM spectrum. We've been using "actual light" for communication for over a century already.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elect ... ectrum.png

As far as alien life, the universe is so vast that it is really a stretch to think earth is the only place with life. Hell, in the next few hundred years we may even find life elsewhere within this very solar system. However actually finding evidence of life outside our solar system is also a stretch, because again, the universe is so vast (at least with our current technology).

Uhm, ok I knew that, I was trying to be more specific. The higher up in frequency the less likely you are to experience refraction and I was speaking to the visible part of the spectrum. For your information, just so we don't have to muddy the waters too much, I am for all general purposes a ham radio operator. I could go and pass the General class test right now and probably the extra license. As soon as I get all these kids out of the house (soon ) I will have the funds to purchase my equipment. I have done edumacated myself fully

I would write up a decently-sized post about extraterrestrial life, seeing as it's pretty interesting to me but.. I think I'll let Bill Watterson say something instead.

I happen to agree with that sentiment Ferno. Maybe the actual truth is they have just hid themselves . We ourselves are beings of light. We produce photons and emit them into our surroundings. That's just awesome to know. Everything living operates on a frequency within that spectrum Krom was talking about and EVERYTHING has a resonate frequency. Hit just the right note and it will shake itself apart

EDIT: That's also not hard to picture with todays tunneling technology. They can actually take individual atoms and move them and listen to the sounds they make, or drag one across the others and here the clicking. Everything may look solid, but in reality it's all just atoms bonded together. Like little puzzle pieces.





Everything may seem solid to the naked eye, but in reality this is how it looks, and these things are also vibrating at very high speeds. The atom is the world's mustard seed

flip wrote:Just throwing this out there because there is no evidence at all of intelligent life elsewhere, but given the amount of time already, you would think they had at least invented the radio by now We may not ever see them but if they are there it's a distinct possibility we could communicate with them.

If they are outside the visible universe, then we cannot receive radio communication from them.

Heh, exactly.

Even just looking at our own Milky Way Galaxy, there are somewhere around 100 billion stars floating around. From what we've observed so far, it looks like the majority of those stars probably have planetary systems orbiting them. While not every planetary system has a planet in the "Goldilocks zone" conducive to supporting life (at least by our current idea of what conditions life can thrive in), it'd be a safe bet that there's a decent percentage that do. Even very conservatively, that's tens of millions of potentially life-sustaining planets, all just in our home galaxy. Multiply that by the vast number of galaxies just in the observable universe...yeah, there's definitely some other life out there, and the odds are good that somewhere are a bunch of other beings looking up at the stars and asking the same exact question.

Now that being said, I think the chances are next to nothing that any of the life that's out there will happen to swing by Earth. For one, if you had a species advanced enough to have mastered interstellar travel, I doubt they'd be interested in a little rock with a bunch of naked apes running around. For another, even the signals we have been broadcasting have a limit beyond which they'd be all but impossible to detect...and to add to that, those signals are actually decreasing. A couple of years ago, the US switched over to fully-digital TV broadcasts, so those decades' worth of lovely analog signals were cut off. We still have radio, but digital/satellite is making inroads there too.

Foil wrote:[ Edit: I answered as a best-guess: "Yes, but the aliens just haven't figured out how to get here to earth yet", but I would put it more like this:
"Yes, but the aliens are unaware of us, or they are unable/uninterested in travelling to or contacting Earth." ]

x2 for Uninterested aliens.
It'd be inbetween these 2, so like you i chose the former:
- Yes, but the aliens just haven't figured out how to get here to earth yet
- Yes, and they're up there watching

Specifically they're uninterested in travelling this distance, there's probably much more relevant (ie: technologically equivalent) species in the galaxy for them to interact with. If we can't travel the galaxy yet, we come across as a pretty boring species.

I doubt there's any intelligent non-human life yet within our expanding sphere of radio output, we're probably still invisible on the pan-galactic stage.

I do think it's odd that we haven't yet come across any Von-Neuman type probes from other civilisations. Maybe said probes are here, but they are sophisticated enough to avoid detection and are just sitting and watching - reporting back how boring we are.

those signals are actually decreasing. A couple of years ago, the US switched over to fully-digital TV broadcasts, so those decades' worth of lovely analog signals were cut off. We still have radio, but digital/satellite is making inroads there too.

That's a good point.

Top Gun wrote:For another, even the signals we have been broadcasting have a limit beyond which they'd be all but impossible to detect...and to add to that, those signals are actually decreasing. A couple of years ago, the US switched over to fully-digital TV broadcasts, so those decades' worth of lovely analog signals were cut off. We still have radio, but digital/satellite is making inroads there too.

Yeah... theoretically, if we're transmitting at a signal strength that's stronger than the sun, anyone that can find our sun at that particular frequency could find and detect our message.... even digital communications are beaming all kinds of energy all over the place.... I guess when you start considering the directivity of antennas, aliens way out there would only get little "blips".

I'd so like to live on a different planet. We really need to figure out the whole faster-than-light travel things so we can send out exploratory missions to other stars.

I think it's quite possible that there are civilizations out there that are highly advanced and have figured out how to travel long distances in shirt time periods but since we are still infants in our evolutionary scale, we haven't figured it out yet.

Also, remember that even if we could travel through space easily, where would we start searching for life? We would have to find a signal and follow it for a while to make sure it's not just noise.

Also, if a civilization that is more advanced than us would want to they (if they were evil) could come here and pretend to be Gods by performing things we can't do ourselves. This is something that could of happen already. Just speculating here.

I still think we are at least 500 years away from even leaving our solar system in a humans life span. It's far to dangerous and the distance is immense and we don't have the technology yet or even close to it to travel great distances fast.

callmeslick wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:I think if other alien life exists, they are up there watching us and waiting.

why? Isn't it far more likely that, like us, they're out there someplace, wondering if other life forms exist?

Let me put it this way. If you were an alien life, if YOU stumbled across earth, would YOU want to come down here seeing what we've been doing to each other and the planet? I'd think they'd be afraid that it's catching.

callmeslick wrote:As for the rest, I don't really buy into the Experimental God theory, so I don't view you as pessimistic, so much as, well, special.

Oh, I don't know. I can't think of any other reason that a God entity would even want to create organic-based life, let alone intelligent life, in the first place, except to see if it could do so and what would happen after it did. Just like some little lab experiment. I recently read "Under the Dome" by Stephan King and it gave me the idea. Maybe I should start a new religion.

I answered that there is intelligent life and that they are watching us, but allow me to clarify. Considering multiple universe theory and the greatness of our own universe, there is a high probability that in that vastness, there is greater intelligence than our own that could find our location and find us. But while they may be aware of us, we are probably so inferior that they don't think much of us, like how we treat bugs or dirt.

Aggressor Prime wrote:I answered that there is intelligent life and that they are watching us, but allow me to clarify. Considering multiple universe theory and the greatness of our own universe, there is a high probability that in that vastness, there is greater intelligence than our own that could find our location and find us. But while they may be aware of us, we are probably so inferior that they don't think much of us, like how we treat bugs or dirt.

I think there's just as good of a chance that they've already launched an attack and destroyed us. While we're at it...

But what if a temporal confluence occurs somewhere nearby our system? They could step into our universe at any time if they are so advanced and have the technology for space/time travel. They could alter our past or future in ways that either benefit them and wipe us out because they've found that humans are just nothing but worthless sacks of carbon, oxygen and hydrogen polluting this universe! We could already be dead!

Sorry, I've been reading too much Star Trek DTI.

The problem with that theory tunnelcat, is it would simply cause another split pair of universes. One where they destroyed us, and one where they didn't. It wouldn't actually change anything.

That only holds if the many-worlds interpretation is true, though.

Aggressor Prime wrote:I answered that there is intelligent life and that they are watching us, but allow me to clarify. Considering multiple universe theory and the greatness of our own universe, there is a high probability that in that vastness, there is greater intelligence than our own that could find our location and find us. But while they may be aware of us, we are probably so inferior that they don't think much of us, like how we treat bugs or dirt.

I don't think that you can ignore speed of light limitations. I think that the biggest factor in whether other life is aware of our existence is whether the speed of light limitation is technologically circumventable.