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What Osama wants from America..(beware, long article)

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:51 am
by Nightshade
Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people", reported in today's Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

Observer Worldview

Sunday November 24, 2002

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?
The jist? He wants all human beings to be muslim- and not just any muslim, his brand of islam and no other.

Get your prayer-rug yet?

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:42 am
by Tyranny
Yeah, I got one, with a shotgun waiting for his turban laden head underneath. I find it very ironic that the islamic extremists are basically carrying out their own version of the crusades in a time where they're out gunned and out-matched.

They waited far too long and are far to late for retribution against the 'non-believers'. :roll:

The sad part about all this is the fact that people will still defend the fact that religion doesn't lead to this sort of stuff. :roll:

Yeah....you can basically count the wars on your hands that weren't related to religion in some form or another.

Anyone else get a queazy feeling while reading all that garbage? I literally feel like I need to throw-up right now.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:18 am
by bash
To me it sounds like Olama (if indeed this is legitimate) reads alot of Western media. He definitely has some pros working his public relations campaign. It almost seems like he's stretching when he brings up things like Kyoto, which I would ahve never thought Islamic fundamentalists would give a second thought to. Personally, I have doubts this is really authored by bin Laden. It just feels suspiciously *Western* in in tone and some of the hot-button issues it enumerates. Color me jaded by all the scammers, imposters and disinformationalists that seem to populate the debate these days but this just smells like an A.N.S.W.E.R. zealot doing his best bin Laden impression.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:30 am
by kurupt
so let me get this straight, we're run by jews and we have bad manners?

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 8:27 am
by Pandora
i totally agree with Bash. I knew this one for quite some time and at that time it was called 'allegedly' by Osama.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:10 am
by Krom
What a bunch of BS.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 11:51 am
by Lothar
YHVH Akbar.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:02 pm
by Sergeant Thorne
... you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya...
Maybe I've been watching too much Rambo, but didn't the USA aid the Arabs against Russia? (serious question)

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 12:33 pm
by Ferno
change 'Islam' to 'christianity' and you'll have the exact same thing.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 2:03 pm
by Lothar
Ferno wrote:change 'Islam' to 'christianity' and you'll have the exact same thing.
If you change 'modern Islam' to '12th century Christianity' maybe... and then you ignore all the Jewish conspiracy stuff... and then you ignore the statements justifying targetting of civilians... and disregard the claim that the US is responsible for the creation of AIDS... and you strip out all but about 6 lines of his letter... then yeah, you'd have the exact same thing :roll:

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 3:45 pm
by bash
True, Thorne, the CIA ran the largest covert operation in history fighting a proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. As it so happens I'm reading a book at the moment detailing the operations entitled *Charlie Wilson's War*. It was the last great battle of the Cold War and arguably the Soviet defeat in Afghanistan was the key link in a chain of events that ultimately led to the break-up of the Soviet Union. As a related benefit, because of the intimate knowledge into the terrain, tactics and cast of players we gained during the 1980s, it aided greatly in our own war against the Taliban. The downside, of course, is it also created a professional guerilla army for bin Laden to recruit from when he formed Al-Qaeda.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:22 pm
by Ferno
qu'aran = the one truth, the law, etc
christianity = the one truth, the law, etc.

They both believe their book is the only truth out there and any other religion is bunk.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 4:26 pm
by Lothar
and that one thing somehow means they're *exactly the same in every possible way* right?

*sigh*

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:12 pm
by Ferno
no. i'm saying they're the same at their core

jeez lothar, you know better than to jump to conclusions like that...

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 5:27 pm
by Lothar
And you know better than to say they're the same "at their core". They're the same *in that one way* at their core. But "their core" contains much more than simply the belief that they're right, in both cases. Citing that one similarity as evidence they're the same "at their core" is like saying Descent and Quake are the same "at their core" because they're both FPS's. Both have a substantially larger core than what you've identified.

And what we're seeing in Osama's letter isn't what's at "the core" of Islam anyway -- it's what happens when you add a whole ton of 12th-century baggage on top of the core. Hence, my statement that "If you change 'modern Islam' to '12th century Christianity' maybe... and then you ignore all the Jewish conspiracy stuff... and then you ignore the statements justifying targetting of civilians... and disregard the claim that the US is responsible for the creation of AIDS... and you strip out all but about 6 lines of his letter... then yeah, you'd have the exact same thing"

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:07 pm
by Cuda68-2
I think the Arabs in and around Isreal also signed a document saying it was OK for them to settle there after WW2 ended and the Jews where displaced. It was the 7 day war in 67 or so that set things off between them again.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:29 pm
by Ferno
I saw multiple similarities Tom.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:33 pm
by DCrazy
Islam is in its Crusade phase... unfortunately we're on the other side of this one, and have quite bigger guns...

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:43 pm
by Will Robinson
DCrazy wrote:Islam is in its Crusade phase....
That's probably the most accurate one line assesment I've ever read on the topic!

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:48 pm
by Lothar
Multiple similarities do not make things the same. Again, I could name multiple similarities in "the core" of Descent and Quake, but that would not make them the same at their core. It would only mean that there are multiple similarities at their core. There are still differences at the core, and there are more differences outside of it.

In the case of the particular letter in this thread, some of the differences between Islam and Christianity make it nonsensical to say "this would be the same if you replaced 'Islam' with 'Christianity'." I've pointed out a few of them already -- the Jewish conspiracy stuff, the justification of targetting civilians, blaming the US for creating AIDS. These things simply wouldn't fly in modern Christianity -- 12th centrury Christianity, maybe, but not modern Christianity.

If you really think they're "the same", you need to pay better attention when Drakona and I write, and you need to pay better attention to the things modern Muslim leaders are saying (Little Green Footballs posts articles directly from Islamic sources on a regular basis.)

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:59 pm
by Ferno
Then I should have used the word 'similar' instead of 'same'. nothing more than a freudian slip.
DCrazy wrote:Islam is in its Crusade phase...
true
Lothar wrote:blaming the US for creating AIDS
that part was funny.

Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 7:59 pm
by bash
So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggressionâ??an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.
Good overview about The Crusades. Too often I read claims that they were wars of aggression against Islam. Not so. Like all long wars the truth gets obscured and molded to fit an agenda. If you can tough it out, this article offers a better understanding of whom was attacking whom. What we're seeing is a repetition of history, not a reciprocation.

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:23 am
by kurupt
i think what ferno was getting at was that religion is the leading cause of war.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:45 am
by Tyranny
Lothar...no offense man, but you just hit "uber defensive" mode on the fly. While ferny's statement was a bit....tasteless, trying to change his beliefs aren't really going to get you anywhere.

You know where he stands, and we know where you stand and while either side might not like the opinions of the other.....the debate usually hits the brick wall stage right about now. Let it be.

As far as this letter being a hoax..there is always the possibility. I do submit to the fact that it most likely is (Afterall, TB posted it :P) but...at the same time it does give a good indication of what type of views we're up against. It still made me uncomfortable enough to feel sick to my stomach for some reason (which doesn't happen easily).

*shrug* maybe it was the old piece of gum I was chewing at the time :P

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 10:52 am
by Ferno
Tyr: they may have been 'tasteless' as you put it, but that's just blunt honesty on my part.

Kur: by a large margin

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 11:46 am
by Lothar
Religion is the leading EXCUSE for war.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:17 pm
by Flabby Chick
Your saying that wars usually have some motive other than Religion, but it's more Kosher to blame Religion than the actual original motive?? I don't buy that Lothar.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:24 pm
by Phoenix Red
the whole thing boils down to "★■◆● off scum" and pages of justification for that choice of words. Much of it was deliberately misconstrued, some of it was utter bull★■◆●, a few points are true though. That's not to say a similar piece with more accurate information couldn't be written about either side of the fence.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:31 pm
by Gooberman
I think a lot of wars are about ego. And that can include religion within itâ??or rather underneath itâ??but religion isn't the end justification: only a subcategory.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:46 pm
by Flabby Chick
It sounds rather childish Goob but the Ego/Religion aspect on the causes of war are, for me thoroughly intertwined. "My God is better than your God" is the reason we fight each other.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:53 pm
by Will Robinson
What was the religious reason for WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Spanish American, Civil war...

Also, Communists have killed millions and gone to war without a god...

I don't doubt there have been religious wars but is religion really the leading cause of war?

What about nationalism, territory, economics?

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 12:57 pm
by Gooberman
In response to Flabby:

Or what about we will attack you before you attack us? Thatâ??s what America did with the taliban, our lives are more important to us then theirs. We killed them because they harbored people who might kill us. If there is a posibility that someone may kill us, we kill them. No religion there, alot of ego. (Not saying thatâ??s wrong, but it is ego).

In more of the past what about just Conquering . No religion there, just wanting a larger empire. They may say 'God' wanted them to have this extra land but that is incidental. They wanted it to be more of a badass. Why did Sadamn want Kuwait?

For some wars God is in there, but it seems to me underneith the "just wanting a larger penis size."

I agree they are very intertwined. "My god is better then your god" I am just saying that I think the blame should be on 'human nature' rather then religion.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 1:02 pm
by Testiculese
All the wars I can recall were because of religion or greed, or both. (edit: and territory) Cortez slaughtered most of the Americans for money. the Mongols..greed. Japan's constant slaughtering of Chinese...greed (along with concern for survival, in the form of trying to secure land with materials). Crusades were caused by a combination of greed and religion. American revolution was actually the reverse, for religion. WW1/2 started about religion, in Germany(Agnostic is a religion of sorts, yes?), and the rest of the Axis joined in from greed. Vietnam/Korea(?)..greed, in a offhand way. (Securing capitalism).

On topic: Except for the rhetoric, I sadly agree with Osama on a number of points, and have mentioned before that terrorism mostly exists because of our meddling in those countries in the first place. If we just showed up, bought oil at a decent price, didn't buy oil when the price was unfair, using our own reserves until the prices went to normal, and then refilled our reserves...we wouldn't have that much to worry about. You never hear "Death to Argentina!", do you? Don't they buy oil from the Mideast? Doesn't Japan? Japan and Argentina aren't Muslim, why aren't they being 'targeted'? I only see countries that keep shoving their fist up the Mideast's ass having problems.

If we would leave (have left) those countries alone, and they pulled stunts, I would have no sympathy for them. But it's kind of hard for me to hate'em, given the ★■◆● that this country does to others.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 2:22 pm
by Nightshade
Testi...you hear "death to the infidel." That would include Argentina...Japan...and anyone else you can think of.

"What this country does to others" pales in comparison to the imperialism of France, Portugal, Spain and other imperial powers of the past.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 3:05 pm
by Dedman
I thought his justifications for attacking US civilians was interesting.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 3:22 pm
by Will Robinson
Testi, if you take out the greed factor in your equation you don't have much in the religion column do you? Since I already offered greed as an alternative to religion why try to group them together if not to skew the results?

The american revolution wasn't a religious war it was about freedom from a kings unjust rule, taxes, property rights, freedom from a class system and yes, freedom from a state controlled religion. That is not the same as religion causing a war which is the point your dancing away from!

Calling Germany's motives religious because you think agnostics are practicing a 'religion of sorts' is absolutely silly.

So, again I ask, did religion cause the majority of wars in the world....I'm waiting for some kind of proof.


As to those countries/people who you think are not attacked by terrorists because they aren't considered an enemy like the U.S. is...
It's not their culture that protects them from the radical islamikazi's, it's the radical islamikazi's lack of power to inflict their will on them that has so far kept them relatively free from harm.
If they ever come to power on a scale of america, israel, france, germany etc. you would see the very thing we are trying to prevent right now.

I guarantee if radical islamic fundamentalists had their way anyone who didn't pray to allah, anyone who didn't eat only with their right hand, anyone who gave women equal rights, anyone who practiced any religion other than their sanctioned version of islam would be an infidel and would be attacked.
Their 12th century tactics are only lacking 21st century technology before they become the worst kind of threat world wide!


That is why we fight the "War on Terror" and not the more palatable "War on some terrorists who specifically attacked on 9/11".

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 4:34 pm
by woodchip
"I guarantee if radical islamic fundamentalists had their way anyone who didn't pray to allah, anyone who didn't eat only with their right hand, anyone who gave women equal rights, anyone who practiced any religion other than their sanctioned version of islam would be an infidel and would be attacked.
Their 12th century tactics are only lacking 21st century technology before they become the worst kind of threat world wide!" Will

All one has to do is look at the taliban to see how the vision of Osama plays out. The biggest difference I see between the Koran and the bible, is,"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

So we are all evil. Not just bad or mis-guided, but satan-like. I don't recall the bible saying all non christians are the devils spawn and thus it is O.K. to kill them. It is a religious war the extremist are promoting and the muslim population in america better start waking up and start denouncing this horse pucky rhetoric or there will be some of us who will start thinking the only good muslim is a dead muslim...especially if more large scale attacks occur in this country. If they want to treat us like satan, then I guess they will find out what the "devils Own" are capable of. Then again, since I was in the USMC, I am a "devil dog". Semper fi.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:28 pm
by DCrazy
We've got to remember that the ones who start wars are almost never the ones who fight them. President Bush isn't pounding the ground in Iraq; neither was Sadaam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait, neither was Roosevelt when we joined WWII. Religion is a tool that these people in power use to motivate their foot soliders. The "religion" of democracy motivated the WWII American Soldier. The religion of radical Islam motivates the suicide bomber. The truth to each lies in the eye of the beholder. The truth in democracy, however, is tangible. The positive (and negative) results of any governmental philosophy, be it communism, socialism, or capitalism/democracy, can be realized and analyzed by the very men and women who subscribe to its beliefs. Theology is different; the "faith" one puts in God cannot be rationalized by any human being, as that would defeat the purpose of the theology. The "faith" I put in democracy is based on my real world experience.

We have an advantage in that we don't have to profess faith in democracy. If you do, you still don't have to agree with others who do, even those higher up on the ladder. One of the founding tenets of radical Islam is that you cannot disagree, you must not disagree, or the wrath of a transcendental being will be cast upon you. I don't need to fear the President of the US smiting me because I disagreed with him (although when acts of democracy such as the Patriot Act shake my faith, I'm not so sure).

The point I'm trying to make here is that everything you believe in is a religion to some extent. Anything you would be willing to lift a finger to defend is part of your ideology. Whether it's the existence of a God or the functionality of a representative government, what you believe in is your creed. Those on the top have the power to use your belief that creed to their advantage. Those who started the 12th Century crusades used religion for the purpose Lothar stated -- as an excuse to go to war. The immediate cause of the war was not religion, but the conquest of territory. God didn't come down in a burning bush and say KILL THE MUSLIMS, even if the bishop would have had you believe otherwise. The islamic fundamentalists use religion as a tool, just like the crusade leaders: they invigorate the modern-day Barbarosa to fight for their cause -- triggered by Western economic supremacy and their own desire for power -- under the guise of the mandate of God.

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 5:33 pm
by bash
The majority of modern wars have had nothing to do with religion. That said, the WOT definitely is a religious war, if only because one side is using Islam as justification. My question is to those who aren't particularly spiritual: do you think that will save you in a religious war? Do you think if you are forced by necessity to fight Islamic extremists that will automatically cast you in the role of a religious warrior?

Posted: Tue May 25, 2004 8:06 pm
by Will Robinson
bash wrote:...Do you think if you are forced by necessity to fight Islamic extremists that will automatically cast you in the role of a religious warrior?
I don't care what my enemy thinks my motives are.
If I'm forced to defend myself because he thinks god told him to kill me I could care less if he thinks I'm religious or not.
In fact I could care less if there really is an Allah who told him to kill me, he's deadmeat either way!