DescentBB

http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/US/reute ... 25_90.html

GHDAD (Reuters) - President Bush's speech outlining his plan to hand over power to Iraqis and ease their troubles won few people over in Baghdad, where weary residents are bitter after more than a year of chaos.

Iraqis expressed little faith in American promises after months of occupation which many said had delivered only violence, a lack of basic services and a scandal over the inhumane treatment of prisoners by the U.S. military.

"He lies. We don't believe anything Bush says. The Americans have not done a thing for Iraqis. And now he promises to hand over power to Iraqis in a democracy after handpicking the people in the Governing Council," Haidar Majeed, a trader, said on Tuesday.

Bush delivered a televised speech Monday outlining plans for the transfer of power to a caretaker Iraqi government in just five weeks, on June 30.

He sought to persuade both Americans and Iraqis he had a workable strategy for improving tough conditions in the country, but many Iraqis didn't bother tuning in.

"I wasn't interested in Bush's speech. America has been all talk and no action. I will regain an interest in politics when I see developments on the ground taking place," said Jabbar Luay, 25, a former soldier eating pistachios in the blistering heat.

Bush spoke of defeating terrorism, the rise of a free and self-governing Iraq and improving security in a land where bombings have become commonplace.

But Iraqis at a typical coffee shop were concerned with more practical problems they also blame on the Americans as Baghdad enters another scorching summer under U.S.-led occupation.

MANY COMPLAINTS

"The Americans can move a tank to Iraq in two days yet they can't even give us more than two hours of electricity a day for the air conditioning," said Fallah Hassan, sipping bitter Arabic coffee with fellow unemployed Iraqis.

"Saddam used to cut off the electricity to punish us and now we see the Americans living in his palace with no electricity problems while we suffer."

Bush said he had high hopes for "the rise of a free and self-governing Iraq" to give Iraqis a sense of hope, tackle terrorism and give momentum to reformers across the region.

But Iraqis complain they have not tasted any democracy more than a year after the fall of Saddam Hussein.

"We have never seen a member of the Governing Council in the streets talking to the Iraqi people, or checking on the unemployed and other problems," said Hamid Hassan, a plumber.

Iraqi policemen and security forces, who have lost hundreds of comrades to bombings by insurgents, are skeptical that American troops will leave security in their hands.

"Bush is a scorpion. He is a liar. He is sneaky, making all kinds of promises when he just wants to control Iraq," said policeman Ayman Haidar.

"I was tortured and they dislocated my shoulder under Saddam. Now the Americans say they want to help the police take over security. I don't believe them. They will never leave."

While many Iraqis are furious with the U.S. occupation, some fear a quick departure of American troops could unleash more security problems.

"We need an American presence until we have elections," said 41-year-old Musa al-Rubaie.

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Any other reactions (any positive reactions?), out there? Perhaps blogs?
I don't mean to be the negative harper in Iraq, but these are the people we wish to win over, and it sounds like W isn't cutting it. However, I don't hear any solutions from the John Kerry campaign either.

I dont think there is any solution. These people did not want us, they still do not. Both campaigns know it...

We don't believe anything Bush says.

The solution: follow through.

Bush outlined the June 30 transfer, and the January-next-year elections, as major parts of his plan. The solution is to make sure the June 30 transfer and the January elections happen.

The same is true when someone says "I don't believe you're going to hold true to your word" to any of us. The solution is not in talking more and trying to convince them by our eloquence. The solution is in giving our word and then holding true to it.

I do think one thing Bush could do is make sure to report more often on what the coalition plans to do in Iraq -- "we plan to have electricity up to X hours a day by next month" and "we plan to restore X many schools in Baghdad" and things like that. Report back a month later "last month I said ____ and we've successfully done that." Demonstrate that We The People of the United States of America hold true to our word by giving our word and then holding to it, over and over again.

The only way to convince someone you hold true to your word is to give your word and then hold true to it.

If western troops pull out before they're ready, there will be a vaccuum of power, which can only lead to a fundamentalist regime. We don't need Taliban II: This Time We Have An Even Bigger Country thanks.

The only way to convince someone you hold true to your word is to give your word and then hold true to it

You're right Lothar. But we haven't done squat yet. I agree with how you laid it out, there should be some sort of achievable schedule so that they can see progress in the making. If we say "you'll have power" and they never do, we look like liars even though we may be working day and night trying to hook it back up. Give 'em times, and stick to them. These people don't trust us in the slightest, we did not show up with them in open arms, we have to win it,

The Americans have not done a thing for Iraqis

The poll numbers in Iraq would seem to contradict that assertion:

These results are from an ABCNEWS poll conducted among a random, representative sample of 2,737 Iraqis in face-to-face interviews across the country from Feb. 9-28.

Pre-war vs. post-war:

Your family's protection from crime: 50.5 percent say things are better now; 38.6 percent, worse.

The security situation: 53.6 percent of respondents say things are better now; 26.4 percent, worse.

Availability of jobs: 38.9 percent, better; 25.3 percent, worse.

Supply of electricity: 43.4 percent, better; 23.0 percent worse.

Availability of clean water: 41.3 percent, better; 16.4 percent, worse.

Availability of medical care: 44.3 percent better; 15.6 percent, worse.

Local schools: 46.9 percent better; 9.4 percent, worse.

Local government: 44.4 percent better, 16.4 percent worse.

The availability of household basics: 44.2 percent better, 16.9 percent worse.

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The USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll of 3,444 Iraqis, the largest and most comprehensive poll in Iraq since last year's invasion, was administered by the Pan Arab Research Center of Dubai. Interviews were conducted between March 22 and April 2, with the exception of the governate of Sulaymaniya where interviews ran through April 9. All interviews were conducted in person in the respondent's home, with an average interview length of 70 minutes. The cooperation rate - the percentage of those contacted who agreed to be interviewed - was 98%.

Thinking about any hardships you might have suffered since the US/British invasion, do you personally think that ousting Saddam Hussein was worth it or not?

Worth it: 61%
Not worth it: 38%

Are you and your family much better off, somewhat better off, somewhat worse off or much worse off than before the US invasion?

Better off: 51% (combining "much better" and "better')
Worse off: 25% (combining "much worse" and "worse')

Has there been an increase or a decrease in the family income compared to that of before the war?

Increase: 41%
Decrease: 16%

Have you been afraid to worship?

Last 4 weeks: 5%
Before the war: 54%

Would Saddam Hussein have been removed from power by Iraqis if US/British forces had not taken direct military action?

Yes: 4%
No: 89%


http://fray.slate.msn.com/?id=3936&m=10882275

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I count six Iraqis being cited in the Reuters article. Which is fine, but not exactly something to make sweeping generalizations about.

"We haven't done squat yet" - Zuruck

Is that true or just the opinion of an ex soldier who lost his job and a few other people who are unhappy in the streets of Baghdad?

Do you have any legitimate reason to believe that is the opinion of the majority of Iraqi's?

I've read about a lot of good things happening in Iraq, schools being built, hospitals being stocked with medicine, etc.
A lot of polls taken among the Iraqi's said that they want americans to stay to keep the criminals out but to turn over the government to the Iraqi people. Well, that's what we're doing so who is right, the polls I've seen or this opinion Birdseye quoted?
Obviously Zuruck has chosen which one to paint his own mental picture with but did he choose wisely or with prejudice?

EDIT: oops, index_html seems to have beat me to it...with supporting evidence to boot.

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that not a single person on these boards, except for a few perhaps, is currently in Iraq. So we all base our opinions off the opinions of others, you read sites from the right and preach it. I debunk it with my crap from the left. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find a "poll" where Iraqi's hated Americans and felt worse off.

Well slick, find us the poll.

"These results are from an ABCNEWS poll conducted among a random, representative sample of 2,737 Iraqis..."

"The USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll of 3,444 Iraqis..."
***************************

A right wing source Zuruck?!??

Perhaps the fact that these polls are usually buried on a back page in those media sources might tell you that the source is reluctantly sharing the news, where if the results of the polls had been the inverse it would rival the Abu Grabass prison scandal for front page regurgitation time!

Thanks for the numbers index. I would say that is promising, and I hope those polls are an accurate assesment. The only question I would pose regarding their usefulness is: where were they taken?

If you poll somewhere that was liberated recently and given electricity and water, they are probably happy. Poll someone whose mosque was just blown up, and we're going to be lower.

We need to be wary of the % of people that are unhappy, even if they are not a majority--they are enough to screw our efforts.

From Iraqis:

* * *

I wanted to share with you some of the opinions of Iraqis about their daily lives that I read on the bbc.arabic.com There were more than many comments and about 70% of them were positive. Here are some examples:

*

What happens these days in Iraq is a natural process as a result from the transfer from dictatorship to democracy.
-Ali Ahmed-Baghdad.

*

I'm an Iraqi citizen and I want to thank president GWB from all my heart for the great service he's done to the Iraqi people by freeing us from one of the worst tyrants in history. This liberation didn't suit the enemies of humanity and freedom, thus we see them committing terrorist acts claiming to resist occupation by killing their own people, but that will not affect the Iraqis lust for freedom. Thanks again GWB.
-Kamal-Adhamya-Baghdad.

*

I won't forget the day when I saw a tank crushing the heads of 40 She'at Iraqis who were among others arrested for no obvious reason. Their hands were tied and put on the street for the tank to pass over their heads. The words "No She'at after today" where written on that tank.

I was one of those people. My hands were tied to the back and a grenade was put between them and the safety pin removed. It was positioned in a way that it should explode if I was to make any move, and I was left a lone in a deserted area that was at least 5 Km. from any life. If it wasn't for the kindness of one of the soldiers who came back and rescued me, I would've certainly died soon.
-Ihsan Al-Shimmari-Sweeden.

*

We lived our worst years under Saddam regime, a regime that many Arabs still believe in!We don't know why don't they leave us in peace, especially the Arab media that turns liberation into occupation and criminals into resistant. We, Iraqis, know the truth very well. The situation is much better now for the vast majority of Iraqis. Most of the people are government employees who used to get paid 4 or 6 thousand Iraqi dinars. Now the lowest salary is 100 thousand Iraqi Dinar. We feel free and we don't fear prisons and torture. The Arab media, as expected, made a huge fuss about the prisoners abuse in Abu-Gharib. Shame on them. Where were they when Saddam put explosives around a bunch of young men and blasted their bodies and they all saw that on TV? Where were they?
-Saman-Iraq.

*

I had to leave Iraq because I didn't want to be one of Saddam's slaves. After so many years, I'm back to my country and I saw that people are not as nervous as they used to be. I saw hope in their eyes despite the security problems. All I have to say to our Arab brothers is,"We are practicing democracy. You keep enjoying dictatorship"
-Ilham Hussain-Baghdad.

*

I'm from an area not so far from Shat Al-Arab, still at Saddam's time we never had clean water supply. Now the situation is better and the British are very gentle and kind. I no longer fear for my life or my family's. The only problems we have are the thieves and some shortage in power supply.
-Kadim Jabbar-Al-Zubair-Basra.

*

The daily life in Basra is not that different from other parts of Iraq; It's very hot, the water and power supply are not Continueous, still I prefer to live a year in these conditions than one hour like those we lived under Saddam.
-Abbas Mahir Tahir-Basra.

* * *

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/

I grow so tired of slants this way and slants that way, I dont know what to think about the media becides trust none of them.

I feel the same way sometimes Krom.

We need to be wary of the % of people that are unhappy

Though the poll doesn't reflect religious sect, I'd be willing to bet that the positive responses came mostly from the Kurds in the north and Shi'ite majority in the south, and the negatives from the Sunni minority (the favored social/religious segment under Ba'athist rule).

As far as where the polls were conducted, the ABC one says "across the country". The USA/CNN/Gallup poll doesn't stipulate, but mentions extended polling in one "governate" which would suggest it was also a nationwide sampling.

To be sure, the Sunni population is the most likely to oppose liberty and reform (along with foreign elements). Much of Hussein's "loyal" infrastructure undoubtedly dissolved into the Sunni population during the relatively easy initial defeat. While we should be concerned about them, they should be equally concerned about a Shi'ite and Kurdish majority. Playing nice would seem to be in their best long-term interest.

Yet, even in the "Sunni Triangle," changes in attitude already seem to be appearing (though little reported). Check out this press conference with Gen. Mohammed Latif, commander of the Fallujah Brigade, Fallujah Mayor Muhammed Ibrahim al-Juraissey, and Maj. Gen. James N. Mattis, commanding general of the 1st Marine Division. It's on National Review's site, yes, but there's little if any spin (mostly verbatim transcripts):

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/s ... 240852.asp

First, I have to laugh at the people willing to jettison any trust in the media over a little spin. C'mon, it's not that hard to combat, you just have to do a little homework.

But second, and what makes the first one funny, is that a mere click-through on the polls reveals them to not be nearly so optimistic as reported here. From the Gallup poll, here are some most negative results that Index's source didn't report:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... ndings.htm

3. Taking everything into account, do you think the coalition invasion of Iraq has done more harm than good or more good than harm?

More harm: 46%
More good: 33%
The same: 16%


4. Is Iraq much better off, somewhat better off, somewhat worse off or much worse off than before the U.S. invasion?

Much better + somewhat better: 42%
Much worse + somewhat worse: 39%
The same: 17%


7. After the invasion of Iraq by US and British forces, which of the following, if any, happened to you personally or to members of your household:

Unsafe at Night:

Last 4 weeks: 60%
At some point since invasion: 74%
Before war: 10%


8. Should US/British forces leave immediately (next few months) or stay longer?
Immediately: 57%
Stay longer: 36%


9. How have US forces conducted themselves?
Very well + Fairly well: 34%
Very badly + Fairly badly: 58%


12. How hard are US forces trying to keep ordinary Iraqis from being killed or wounded during exchanges of gunfire?

Trying a lot: 11%
Only a little: 18%
Not trying at all: 67%


14. Do you think now of Coalition forces mostly as occupiers or mostly as liberators?

Occupiers: 71%
Liberators: 19%


18. Express the extent of liking or admiration with respect to US President George W. Bush:

Favorable: 35%
Unfavorable: 55%


The other poll had a ton of questions about aspirations for Iraq's future, and was mostly US-politics-neutral. But here's one thing they didn't report:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/Go ... 40314.html

Confidence in Institutions: (% confident)

Religious leaders: 70%
The police: 68%
New Iraqi army: 56%
Local leaders in your community: 50%
Iraqi Media Network TV: 50%
Ministries in Baghdad: 44%
The press: 43%
The United Nations: 40%
The (Iraqi Governing) Council: 39%
The CPA: 28%
Political parties: 28%
U.S. and U.K. occupation forces: 25% (OUCH!)

====================



Overall, I see in those polls hope tempered with distrust, as well as a great diversity of opinion... somewhat similar to the situation in the US population, actually (To generate your own interpretation, I highly suggest a click-through to the poll results--in particular, the Gallup poll has things broken down by region--I discovered, among other things, that the Kurds seem like us a lot better than we like ourselves...)

Anyway, I myself am optimistic about the situation in Iraq. But I do really loathe selective reporting.

-Drak

Just a note -- the selective polling data on the site I linked to was intended to illustrate that we have, in fact, done things for the Iraqis, which many acknowledge (hence the quote I resonded to). I thought about linking the originals, but most of the negative responses relate to whether or not the Iraqis like or trust coalition forces (which wasn't relevant to my point). Maybe that's spin, but we'll call it "supporting evidence" like the media does. Okay? Okay.

Ultimately, the poll seems to say that Iraqis are an incredibly fickle bunch who appreciate the ends, but despise the means. Yay for material benefits, boo for those who enable them. They sound like a bunch of ... Americans or something. The coalition is the Microsoft of Iraq (heh).

I just want to throw out a thought that I had, a little while ago, while I was thinking about the situation concerning Iraq: What did it take for America to succeed, when it was first conceptualized as a nation?.. What was the cost of liberty and democracy? It would not have worked unless the Americans had been, as indeed they were, willing to fight and suffer the cost.. willing to stand up. Are you following me? How can the people of Iraq expect peace and freedom, unless they themselves are willing to stand up. Maybe somebody needs to wake them up, and remind them that it's their future.

Something else to think about: I think that some of you might be mistaken about President Bush: I have only lived for a little over 20 years, but, because of various circumstances, it is possible that I have some life experience beyond my years: I have found that the results of sincerity are--I don't know if I want to say absolutely, but almost--impossible to fake, and I believe that I have seen some real sincerity on George W. Bush's part. I'm not saying he's perfect, and wouldn't necessarily argue that everything he's doing is good (please forgive the absolute comparisons), but I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that sincerity is the most important quality that a person can hope to possess, or that we can hope for someone in a position of leadership to possess (especially in our day).

If a person is sincere, there is hope for imperfections to be worked out.

I'd have to say the negatives are not to be worried about.
Safer at night under Saddam..well sure, there weren't insurgents running around attacking a big army of westerners who can't tell the difference between harmless citizens and islamikazi's!
But that isn't a permanent situation so I'm not too concerned, obviously Iraqi's don't have the faith in us leaving soon (relatively speaking) but I know better.
Crime down under Saddam...well yea...see conditions above...etc. etc.

It all depends on who you ask.

The Iraqi people are educated. And, naturally, I bet the feelings about the occupation can be as polarized there as they are here. If I worked for the BBC and went over to some particularly conservative region of the US and polled about the war, no doubt I would find overwhelming support for it (and, thus, an ignorant type would label all Americans as warmongering cowboys). But, if I polled in some of the more liberal regions, I'd probably find we were all tree-hugging peaceniks.

In other words, it's not clear where these polls were conducted. The poll makes clear about some regions that were not questioned, but it's not obvious who was.