DescentBB

I think everyone knows that today's comfortable life of humanity, as well as growth of the world population , are provided primarily by petroleum. It is obvious that today's alternative energy sources will not be able to fully meet all the needs of humanity , even in electricity. Today we can see that there are conflicts between the different countries , as a rule , because of the struggle for oil resources . But it is no secret that the oil reserves in today's way of life of people still have enough for a maximum of 150-200 years. What will happen after? We will cultivate the land with horses? We'll be back in the Middle Ages ?

The problem is, most humans think we can invent our way out of any bad situation and that our technology will save us. Maybe, maybe not. But even if we can invent our way around the loss of petroleum with some other clean energy source, we're still going to eventually run out of all the other resources that we get from the earth.

I agree with you to some extent. But it sounds too pessimistic. I know about some of the developments of Russian scientists on how to get huge amounts of hydrogen from the depths of the Earth, whose reserves are virtually endless. At the same time, I know that the search for alternative sources are also involved scientists in the United States. You could not tell more about it? I'm sorry, I sometimes difficult to navigate in the western sources of information.

energy isn't the only issue around petroleum. Sit back for a moment and look around you. I sit here, with a laptop made with a lot of plastic, petroleum based products surround me, from the fibers in the carpet in this room, to the case on the pen on my end table, the inks in the magazines on the coffee table, to paints, finishes, and half the parts on my car. You have a whole new paradigm that will have to be faced as petroleum grows more scarce. As for the comment made that we, as humans, expect to invent our way out of a given scarcity: we do so, because, in essence, that is how it has always worked, and is one of the things that makes us an upper tier species.

I want for you to answer that in Russia there are a large number of patents, copyright, which do not attract the attention of the authorities. I even know of cases where the inventors of alternative energy sources were killed. Apparently the oil lobby is still very much at the moment. It's a stupid policy, I do not want to swear, but this is a stupid policy. Unfortunately

I'm under the impression that sigma is very nationalistic and overly optimistic about 'russian this and russian that.'

Russia is currently a mafia state rotting from corruption. I don't see that changing for quite some time.

Not that the USA has been faring too much better. Politicians have their own rackets making money off the backs of the American people through cronyism and nepotism.

Though if you cross Harry Reid- they won't find your body in a ditch somewhere as is the case in Russia.

sigma wrote:I agree with you to some extent. But it sounds too pessimistic. I know about some of the developments of Russian scientists on how to get huge amounts of hydrogen from the depths of the Earth, whose reserves are virtually endless. At the same time, I know that the search for alternative sources are also involved scientists in the United States. You could not tell more about it? I'm sorry, I sometimes difficult to navigate in the western sources of information.

Sorry about that. But I tend to be the tin hat pessimist around here.

By the way, where is there hydrogen from the depths of the Earth? Are you talking about hydrocarbons, not hydrogen, or what is known as abiotic oil?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 150843.htm

As a geologist, abiogenic oil may be possible, the conditions might be right, but I'm a little skeptical about it. Also, mining the stuff, if it exists, may prove more difficult since it must be deep down in the earth's crust. Beside that possibility, why do we need to keep burning petroleum or hydrocarbons for energy? The pollutants from using, burning and disposing of the stuff will kill us first. China is poisoning it's air all for coal power and more and more personal cars and we're filling our landfills with tons of plastic that never decomposes.

Now if you actually mean hydrogen, that's a whole different matter. That can be used in fuel cells, combined with oxygen, to produce energy. Much cleaner and more viable as a power source, especially for cars and trucks. That would be news.

ThunderBunny wrote:I'm under the impression that sigma is very nationalistic and overly optimistic about 'russian this and russian that.'

Russia is currently a mafia state rotting from corruption. I don't see that changing for quite some time.

Not that the USA has been faring too much better. Politicians have their own rackets making money off the backs of the American people through cronyism and nepotism.

Though if you cross Harry Reid- they won't find your body in a ditch somewhere as is the case in Russia.

What exactly nationalism ? Russia is home to many people of different nationalities , and to those people who are willing and able to assimilate in compliance with the traditions of the indigenous population that respect the Russian law. The only problem is that so many thieves budget funds among public officials, regardless of nationality. In addition, it is no secret that some nationalities too susceptible to the anti-Russian propaganda by radical Islamists from Saudi Arabia and some other countries in the Middle East and the United States. They are ruining the sense of impunity , but works well as long as the FSB . They do point-and unexpectedly. I mean, the fact that no one, not Rosiii citizen or foreign citizen , can not be immune from a Russian prison . In most cases, this means a painful death . I think I can say that with respect to the power of ruthless criminals and authoritarian.

tunnelcat, no, I'm talking about the production of pure hydrogen from the layers that are below the oil deposits in the deep layers of the crust. It will be much cheaper than the production of hydrogen from water. I can not say exactly, has been going in this direction or not.

callmeslick wrote:and is one of the things that makes us an upper tier species.

LOL! "an upper tier species", eh? That's a good one. As if we have competition, or even distant company. Things get so crazy when our creator is left out of the picture.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

callmeslick wrote:and is one of the things that makes us an upper tier species.

LOL! "an upper tier species", eh? That's a good one. As if we have competition, or even distant company. Things get so crazy when our creator is left out of the picture.

um, go compete in the western mountains with a mountain lion and get back to me. There was a distinct reason I chose my words.

We're upper tier in brains, not brawn., although sometimes I wonder..............

Issac, what the hell is that guy dressed as? A toxic garbage can or something? Leave it up Foil, it's funny.

Anyone who thinks alternative energy can't keep up is seriously underestimating the mind bogglingly enormous amount of energy from the sun that strikes the earth every day which we don't harvest or use in any manner.

For that matter, fossil fuels such as oil are basically prehistoric sunlight in liquid form. The issue isn't that there isn't enough alternative energy, the issue is figuring out an efficient method of collecting that energy because if we could efficiently collect and store the energy in sunlight, we would have more energy than we would ever need or probably know what to do with.

COMMON PEOPLE 150-200 YEARS,

look how far we've come in the last 100 alone, you don't think our tech will be LIGHT YEARS ahead of where we are today by then.

That's supposed to prove something, slick? Wild cats have been around a long time, but your mountain lion will not be running with reinforcements, and as a man among men who have been around a long time, I'M bringing the heat (semi-auto). Get the picture? What kind of a stupid jump is that anyway? How did we get from technological adaptation to going nail-to-claw with reclusive wildcats? I suppose rabbits earn their place on one of these upper tiers for being able to procreate better/faster?

um, go compete in the western mountains with a mountain lion and get back to me. There was a distinct reason I chose my words.

Hehe, we call that hunting

Exactly.

flip wrote:

um, go compete in the western mountains with a mountain lion and get back to me. There was a distinct reason I chose my words.

Hehe, we call that hunting

Try it without a rifle, or even a knife.

Krom wrote:Anyone who thinks alternative energy can't keep up is seriously underestimating the mind bogglingly enormous amount of energy from the sun that strikes the earth every day which we don't harvest or use in any manner.

Agreed. With the exception of nuclear, alternative energies in their current form cannot compete with fossil fuels. Wind is a dead end. Hydro has potential. But solar, my goodness, solar is on the way to becoming the leader. It all comes down the efficiency of the conversion from light to electricity. Years ago we were lucky to use 6% of the sunlight hitting a solar panel. Now we are hitting 10%. 20% is in our sights and some experiments have hit 36%. Given the exponential progress of technology we will likely move to solar long before we run out of fossil fuels (and not a second too soon).

CUDA wrote:COMMON PEOPLE 150-200 YEARS, look how far we've come in the last 100 alone, you don't think our tech will be LIGHT YEARS ahead of where we are today by then.

Agreed. It is fair to say there is a good possibility we will become a Type I civilization before the end of the century, if not soon after. I know the petroleum mafia is powerful, but not as powerful as human creativity. The oil barons will either adapt or die.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:As if we have competition, or even distant company. Things get so crazy when our creator is left out of the picture.

I'm not sure what a creator has to do with our ability to be a top tier species, but we do have to share with others. Don't forget there are countless organisms that feed on us. Insect driven disease accounts for millions and millions of deaths every year. And you have a death sentence pretty much anywhere on the planet humans are exposed without the safety of their tools. No, I would definitely say we have competition, like Cholera for example.

Krom wrote:Anyone who thinks alternative energy can't keep up is seriously underestimating the mind bogglingly enormous amount of energy from the sun that strikes the earth every day which we don't harvest or use in any manner.

For that matter, fossil fuels such as oil are basically prehistoric sunlight in liquid form. The issue isn't that there isn't enough alternative energy, the issue is figuring out an efficient method of collecting that energy because if we could efficiently collect and store the energy in sunlight, we would have more energy than we would ever need or probably know what to do with.

I agree with you that the use of solar energy has huge potential and great promise. But there are at least two caveats. First, as far as I know, the production of solar panels is very harmful and polluting industries. Secondly, in my opinion , solar energy has the potential only if the collection of this energy will take place in Earth orbit. That is, when it doesn't reach Earth surface. For example , I know that the astronauts can not look in the windows to the ISS in direct sunlight . Because the astronaut gets a sunburn , which is comparable with the burn human skin , tanning on the beach in the tropics about 30 minutes , in one minute . Also, I do not know the number of sunny days per year in the U.S., but in Russia the main part of the country most of the year covered by clouds . The sun's rays for us it is a rare pleasure .

Krom wrote:Anyone who thinks alternative energy can't keep up is seriously underestimating the mind bogglingly enormous amount of energy from the sun that strikes the earth every day which we don't harvest or use in any manner.

Tell that to the farmers who grow your food or the plants that both produce oxygen and scrub C02.

tunnelcat wrote:

flip wrote:

um, go compete in the western mountains with a mountain lion and get back to me. There was a distinct reason I chose my words.

Hehe, we call that hunting

Try it without a rifle, or even a knife.

You obviously haven't seen me when I become animal.

Go for the eyes!

But seriously, what is all this BS about having to strip down naked and decide our place in creation apart from the reasoning, planning, and inventing faculties which we and no other living creatures on earth have been endowed with? Insanity.

I am ready to express my opinion on any of your questions, but only in respective topics on the forum. Here theme - "Alternative sources of energy." Let's not turn the forum into a mess. Create a relevant topic, please.

sigma wrote:I am ready to express my opinion on any of your questions, but only in respective topics on the forum. Here theme - "Alternative sources of energy." Let's not turn the forum into a mess. Create a relevant topic, please.

Let me word this question, so it won't offend you: Why is mother Russia the greatest country in the world ever, especially when it comes to inventing new alternative sources of energy?

and, Sigma, to return to your original post, you cite the(to me) rather optimistic picture of 150-200 years before petroleum is exhausted. I have read something along the lines of 40-75 given current rate of usage and expansion of developing countries. Still, as noted above, even the narrower time frame is a window for massive human innovation. Think about it, 75 years ago, you didn't have space flight, air travel was in propeller-driven planes, and the concept of personal computing was something out of comic books. Further, the pace of technological innovation is accelerating, and has been since the dawn of mankind. I don't understand your fears, therefore.

Isaac wrote:

sigma wrote:I am ready to express my opinion on any of your questions, but only in respective topics on the forum. Here theme - "Alternative sources of energy." Let's not turn the forum into a mess. Create a relevant topic, please.

Let me word this question, so it won't offend you: Why is mother Russia the greatest country in the world ever, especially when it comes to inventing new alternative sources of energy?

Russia not only the largest country in the world, but also the biggest reserve of pristine wilderness in the world. And in most of the country's survival of the people is very problematic. If the normal temperature in Moscow in the winter - it's 25-30 degrees below zero Celsius, then the Urals is normal temperature in winter is 40 degrees Celsius in the Eastern Siberia - 50-60 degrees below zero in winter , 40 degrees of heat - in the summer . The reason - a sharply continental climate. And because of the abundance of wetlands in the summer it is almost impossible to live there because of the huge amount of blood-sucking insects in the air. So it turns out that to date the government profitable to sell natural resources abroad , than to develop high technology. However , everyone knows that natural resources are not infinite , but a large number of patents, copyrights Russian scientists about getting energy from alternative sources, while no interest in power. As can be appreciated in Europe and the U.S., the problem of alternative energy sources is more acute than in Russia , so I was curious to know what research is conducted abroad. Though, certainly , maybe this is a big secret

callmeslick wrote:and, Sigma, to return to your original post, you cite the(to me) rather optimistic picture of 150-200 years before petroleum is exhausted. I have read something along the lines of 40-75 given current rate of usage and expansion of developing countries. Still, as noted above, even the narrower time frame is a window for massive human innovation. Think about it, 75 years ago, you didn't have space flight, air travel was in propeller-driven planes, and the concept of personal computing was something out of comic books. Further, the pace of technological innovation is accelerating, and has been since the dawn of mankind. I don't understand your fears, therefore.

I'm aware that even with the Arctic oil reserves may not be more than 100 years. But I increased the number to 200 years , given that humanity will use less oil , and will be gradually transferred to other fuels . As I said , the country , which is now the main income is the sale of energy , already can think about finding alternative sources of energy in the future. But , apparently , the governments of Western countries, this problem has little interest . It is not clear that all hope at all , because the time left is really small .

To keep things simple: If we lose one resource we'll move on to another. The market will always try to meet demand and losing a way of life is not the loss of life itself.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:But seriously, what is all this BS about having to strip down naked and decide our place in creation apart from the reasoning, planning, and inventing faculties which we and no other living creatures on earth have been endowed with? Insanity.

Human beings are not special and certainly not divine. Other animals are capable of "reasoning, planning, and inventing" but are just not as efficient as us. And that's a good thing because much of the time we use our "god given brains" to torture and kill other humans, poison and pollute the world, and generally make a huge mess of everything. Given enough evolutionary time elephants could probably build spaceships too. All of our advancements have taken place in a miraculously small sliver of time. It's possible there may be a dozen more non-human civilizations on this planet over the next billion years. We are nothing outside our own egos.