An outside perspective on healthcare

[Top Gun]

I'm going to go ahead and quote something that an acquaintance of mine from Canada posted about the current state of US healthcare, since it really hammers home just how ridiculous we are:

I'm going to be a smarmy Canadian for a moment because you guys are all of voting age and I'd like to illustrate for you a contrast in the hopes that it may make you see the absolute stupidity of the healthcare system you all put up with.

A few days ago, my pregnant wife had a severe pain in her pelvis. She went to the hospital, and was seen by a obstetrician (specialist) in less than an hour, diagnosed five minutes later, and booked in for surgery that day. The surgery occurred 6 hours later (under general anesthetic), and she was discharged and home the next morning. Total cost out of pocket: $18 for parking at the hospital.

Setup required?
1. Canadian resident.
2. Pay taxes - which amounts off my income to about 16% of my gross yearly earnings, after deductions and what not (my marginal tax rate is considerably higher than the actual amount lost from my pay to explicit provincial/federal taxes; my wife's taxes amount to about the same percentage).
3. Apply for provincial healthcare number on becoming provincial resident (for me, after I moved; my son who was born here got it after filling in a quick form and mailing it off).
4. No premiums paid because the wife and I both have additional "extras" coverage through work - so the total bill for her prescription meds required post-op at home was $0. That required filling out a form when I got my job; ditto for my wife. There is no eligibility requirement.

So this lunacy you guys are dealing with over the ACA? It's hilarious. It's hilariously stupid that you have an overcomplicated mess of a system because you can't politically get a single-payer system because too much of your voting population is too brainwashed against anything that has the slightest whiff of collectivism. It's hilariously stupid that in order to extended healthcare coverage eligibility to all Americans, your politicians have fought and fought to cobble together this bastardized exchange system because health care in the United States is about politics, not improving people's lives. And it's hilariously stupid that you all put up with it.

It's New Years' Eve here (for the next 14 minutes). Make a resolution to quit putting up with bull★■◆●.

Take a look at this map. Essentially the entire First World besides us has implemented some form of universal healthcare. We pay twice as much as a whole than the next country on the list, and yet we wind up somewhere in the mid-20s in terms of actual results. So to anyone who still has their heads buried in the sand and denies the need for us to finally join the rest of the civilized world...★■◆● you.

[CDN_Merlin]

I've been saying this for years. Yes there are stories where people wait months for MRIs etc but those are in small towns where there is 1 machine and lots of people. In the big city, you'll wait a few days/weeks at most.

[Krom]

Here in the US, My mom recently had a MRI done (which came back just fine, no problems), the wait was a little over one week, total cost billed to the insurance was a bit over $12,000 dollars.

One of my moms prescription drugs, for a one month supply cost over $1,500 USD from the local pharmacy (for the generic). So instead of getting it locally they import it from Switzerland at $75 shipped for a 3 month supply.

When they wanted to get some dental implants, locally it would have cost upwards of $35,000 USD, instead they went to Costa Rica and had it done for $3,200.
(Also in that map posted earlier, that tiny spot of green in the central Americas...Yep, that's Costa Rica.)

...Need I go on?

[callmeslick]

and, yet, none of the above will convince a certain segment of our populace that somehow, the US has it wrong on healthcare. To them, someone has to make a substantial profit off the health of their fellow citizens(and themselves) or it just isn't American somehow. Sad.

[Will Robinson]

Maybe one day a US politician will author legislation that is designed to accomplish a clean single payer system. One that isn't also loaded with loopholes and back doors that accommodate their campaign donors.

That has NEVER happened before, in spite of the rhetoric that we hear today. (I don't know if Ralph Nader ever offered any plan but he has never been an office holder so it doesn't matter if he did)

Until we remove the heavy influence of the uber rich on our representatives those representatives will continue to represent the uber rich as a priority and only consider the rest of us as a tactical problem to be dealt with.
If you are voting for a Dem or a Repub at the state or federal level then you are voting to maintain the system as it is. You are voting to sustain the problem.

Any argument you think you can make to refute that assertion is folly and it primarily only serves the Dems, Repubs and the status quo. Not the cause you think you are advancing nor the interests of workers, families, individuals, minorities, citizens at large, etc.

[callmeslick]

Maybe one day a US politician will author legislation that is designed to accomplish a clean single payer system. One that isn't also loaded with loopholes and back doors that accommodate their campaign donors.

That has NEVER happened before, in spite of the rhetoric that we hear today.

it has been proposed numerous times by Bernie Sanders alone, and by others. Never seems to go far.

.....Not the cause you think you are advancing nor the interests of workers, families, individuals, minorities, citizens at large, etc.

single payer would benefit every last US citizen to some extent. It would especially help businesses AND working families by taking the burdens of unpredictable health costs off the businesses, and free workers to pursue employment based on talent and not restrained by fears around lost health coverage.

[Will Robinson]

Maybe one day a US politician will author legislation that is designed to accomplish a clean single payer system. One that isn't also loaded with loopholes and back doors that accommodate their campaign donors.

That has NEVER happened before, in spite of the rhetoric that we hear today.

it has been proposed numerous times by Bernie Sanders alone, and by others. Never seems to go far.

Even when the Dems held both houses and the Presidency....hmmmm.
I guess my indictment of the real powers that be is spot on. It isn't either Party's rhetoric that steers them. It is their donors and benefactors.
Otherwise we would have put all the people first instead of just the rich and powerful people.

So I guess that old partisan tool about the 'Dems really care and the 'Repubs don''t is past due for a rewrite huh?

Loyalty to the Dems over the Repubs is really loyalty to the better sounding rhetoric....not actual results.
Quit trying to do things half-assed! Flush the whole toilet people! Otherwise the stench will continue.

[CDN_Merlin]

I think it all boils down to greed. No one wants to pony up[ the money and want the consumer to pay for everything. Sad that America is that way.

[Will Robinson]

I think it all boils down to greed. No one wants to pony up[ the money and want the consumer to pay for everything. Sad that America is that way.

We would have to cut military spending and there have been times when doing that could have hurt even the Canadians long term ability to fund their health care.
But I believe we could do it now if the greedy leaders could be weaned from the corporate teet.

Large scale conflict isn't the threat today like it was before so we could still be well armed at a lower expense and have the funds for a single payer solution. The profits are still there for the providers of the hardware though and they control the politicians...

[Spidey]

I have one simple question, being the simple minded conservative I am. ( I won’t bore you with the possibility that there might be an even better system than universal)

What the hell makes anyone believe the government could run an efficient health care system…look at the military for your most obvious example.

And, no dumb answers like ...this will be different.

[CobGobbler]

Because other governments do Spidey. The system now is inefficient and wasteful, so what would we really lose by trying?

Military budget should be cut in half, and then cut in half again. This idea that fellow countrymen, women, and children go hungry and yet we have to spend billions of dollars on weapon systems to fight a non-existing enemy is ludicrous. Military spending is by far, by FAR the largest and single greatest waste of government spending. Close the overseas bases, close all that crap.

[callmeslick]

I have one simple question, being the simple minded conservative I am. ( I won’t bore you with the possibility that there might be an even better system than universal)

What the hell makes anyone believe the government could run an efficient health care system…look at the military for your most obvious example.

And, no dumb answers like ...this will be different.

we already do. It's called Medicare, and costs 1/10 the overhead of the private insurance system, albeit with private insurers involved in the supplemental insurance, as would be the case in a single-payer system.

[Spidey]

Medicare still pays 10+ times what the market would bear without insurance.

[Spidey]

Because other governments do Spidey. The system now is inefficient and wasteful, so what would we really lose by trying?

Military budget should be cut in half, and then cut in half again. This idea that fellow countrymen, women, and children go hungry and yet we have to spend billions of dollars on weapon systems to fight a non-existing enemy is ludicrous. Military spending is by far, by FAR the largest and single greatest waste of government spending. Close the overseas bases, close all that crap.

So you would replace all those middle class workers with over paid burger flippers.

[vision]

So you would replace all those middle class workers with over paid burger flippers.

Burger flippers with kick-ass health coverage? Sign me up! I'll gladly flip burgers for Canadian-style health insurance. Actually, this could happen to me. I have a friend in Toronto who is a chef and has been bugging me for years to move up there. He says he'll make me a line cook immediately. I plan on visiting him this summer. I might not come back!

[woodchip]

Let me reply like TG would to one of my posts:

LOL LOL LOL LOL another stupid thread by TG about how bad our health care system is.

[woodchip]

I have one simple question, being the simple minded conservative I am. ( I won’t bore you with the possibility that there might be an even better system than universal)

What the hell makes anyone believe the government could run an efficient health care system…look at the military for your most obvious example.

And, no dumb answers like ...this will be different.

we already do. It's called Medicare, and costs 1/10 the overhead of the private insurance system, albeit with private insurers involved in the supplemental insurance, as would be the case in a single-payer system.

Medicare is funded by working people and their employers. Now ask if all the money collected explicitly for Medicare goes into a separate fund or in the general fund where it is used for other things. The waste in Medicare will pale in comparison to the waste in a govt. run single payer insurance program.

[woodchip]

single payer would benefit every last US citizen to some extent. It would especially help businesses AND working families by taking the burdens of unpredictable health costs off the businesses, and free workers to pursue employment based on talent and not restrained by fears around lost health coverage.

Right. Tell that little lie to everyone who will pay double to four times the monthly premiums. Lets see how excited the people covered by employer plans get when the mandate kicks in just after the 2014 elections. The whole program is turning bad and people like you want to spray bathroom deodorant in the air to cover the stench. More people have lost there insurance, lost their doctors than the amount who weren't covered before. This is uglier than Hillary after she just gets out of bed after a night of hard drinking.

[Nightshade]

Just a symptom of the disease Obama is about to catch from his Obamacare:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/12/31/obama ... s-in-2014/

[Top Gun]

Let me reply like TG would to one of my posts:

LOL LOL LOL LOL another stupid thread by TG about how bad our health care system is.

Now see, if one of your threads demonstrated the ability to rub two brain cells together, you might have something here. As it is, you're better off letting the big kids talk.

[callmeslick]

single payer would benefit every last US citizen to some extent. It would especially help businesses AND working families by taking the burdens of unpredictable health costs off the businesses, and free workers to pursue employment based on talent and not restrained by fears around lost health coverage.

Right. Tell that little lie to everyone who will pay double to four times the monthly premiums. Lets see how excited the people covered by employer plans get when the mandate kicks in just after the 2014 elections. The whole program is turning bad and people like you want to spray bathroom deodorant in the air to cover the stench. More people have lost there insurance, lost their doctors than the amount who weren't covered before. This is uglier than Hillary after she just gets out of bed after a night of hard drinking.

what are you babbling about....we DON'T HAVE single payer.

[Burlyman]

Inside out.

[Tunnelcat]

Obamacare, it's just a re-branded Romneycare to die hard liberals.

http://movies.yahoo.com/news/michael-mo ... 00921.html

AND, it's not doing what it promised, keep people out of the expensive ER. It's made it worse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ases-them/

[Spidey]

Psssst…don’t tell slick, I tried to explain that ER usage was rooted in cultural habits. (and he handed me the exact line cited on that page)

Shhhh….

Gonna take many years to break that.

[Spidey]

Oh…TG did I mention I got a good laugh at the SECOND HAND anecdote offered by the person that says anecdotes don’t count for anything.

[vision]

It's pretty cool those people were able to go to the emergency room and not have to file for bankruptcy afterwards.

[Top Gun]

Oh…TG did I mention I got a good laugh at the SECOND HAND anecdote offered by the person that says anecdotes don’t count for anything.

Anecdotes that demonstrate basic facts and statistics work just fine. Or do you doubt that Canada has a single-payer system that works in this fashion, or that the US gets a godawful return on the money we shell out for healthcare?

[Spidey]

If I posted a counter story of someone that had a nightmare situation, instead of the rosy one you posted…would you doubt that Canada has a system that works that way?

See you obviously miss my point, because when "I" post an anecdote it's all about...well this and well that...you even went as far as to lecture me about how people get a deluded picture of reality, and apply what they see to being the norm.

So there you are posting a single story...that wasn't even first hand, obviously to represent the system as a whole.

I just find that humorous.

..........................................

Oh, and to answer your question…yea I do doubt the system always works that way, especially for people without the supplemental insurance those people have.

[vision]

See you obviously miss my point...

You obviously missed Top Gun's point, which wasn't the anecdote, but that map of the growing number of countries that have successful universal healthcare, countries that don't nearly have the financial standing we have. It's been several years now I've been regularly corresponding with friends in Canada and the EU. Throughout that entire time I've heard over and over again how stupid we are when it comes to health care. We are literally the butt of countless jokes.

But hey, socialism, free-market, yaddah-yaddah... Go 'Murica.

[Top Gun]

Look, I'm not trying to claim that this one person's experience with the Canadian healthcare system is representative of every single person's experiences. But the basic fundamentals of that process? They certainly do. The fact that this person was able to get great coverage for their whole family by virtue of just filling out a few form is universal in that system. The basic statistics in where the US ranks versus Canada and other industrialized countries in terms of quality of care, life expectancy, infant mortality, and a host of other factors back this up: everyone else is doing it better than we are, and a lot better. This is a single anecdote, but it's most certainly representative of the majority experience, or else the statistics would show otherwise.

Right now, I should not have to be worrying about where I have to send a certain mandate exemption form because our utter bumblefuck of a governor decided not to pursue Medicaid expansion. I should have been covered every day of my life by the simple fact of being an American citizen. And so should you, and so should all of us here. The fact that we aren't is a national disgrace.

[Spidey]

You will get no argument from me regarding the price we pay here vs. other countries, but I’m not convinced that things such as life expectancies and infant mortality can be laid solely at the feet of the care system…way too many variables.

There are places in the world where life expectancies are very high, and modern health care is almost non-existent.*

Do you want to know something I hear from people overseas…”Americans are fat and lazy”…think that doesn’t have any effect on health outcomes? Drug use, alcohol…poverty….violence….

Someday I would love to have a valid discussion on this topic, but right now it seems the only people willing to debate, are people who franticly want a certain specific type of system, and are willing to do almost anything to get it, including avoiding honest debate.

*One example…(from Arizona Capital Times)

"The Social Security Administration expects Indian men to live until 84 and Indian women to age 88, however, the tough part is getting to age 65 first.

Frank and Janice Martinez, a married couple in their 60s, were preparing for battle on a warm spring day. Seated, the couple extended their legs, bending themselves nearly in half with stretching exercises. They then joined four other silver-haired warriors at the starting line for the 25-yard dash. Janice Martinez won handily — in fact, she won several gold medals at the 2007 Senior Games, held during the Arizona Indian Aging Conference in April.

Janice, who is from a New York state tribe and Frank, a Fort McDowell Yavapai, are part of a little-known phenomenon in Arizona. If they can manage to avoid diabetes, heart or circulatory disease and accidents, they can expect to live another 20 healthy years — the longest life expectancy of any group in the state, or for that matter, in the country.
The growing population of American Indian elders in Arizona is also creating a new challenge for tribes already dealing with insufficient resources and misunderstanding by state officials.

The Social Security Administration notes on its Web site that American Indians tend to have higher life expectancies at age 65 than most U.S. citizens. American Indian men who reached age 65 in 2005 can expect to live to age 84, compared to age 81 for all men. American Indian women who became 65 in 2005 can expect to live to age 88, compared to age 85 for all women.

The journal Geriatric Times notes that between 1980 and 1998, the American Indian and Alaska Native population aged 65 and older increased by 33 percent, compared to an increase of nine percent in white seniors. The American Community Survey, conducted yearly by the U.S. Census Bureau reported that in 2005, nearly 16,700 people reporting only American Indian ancestry live in Arizona.

The growth in the native elder population is especially intriguing when considering that Indians have a very low overall life expectancy. The Arizona Department of Health Services reports that the average life expectancy for an American Indian is just 59, compared to 77 for the state as a whole.

Why the inconsistency?
One reason could be the causes of death in tribal communities. American Indians suffer from the highest accidental death rates in the state if not the nation; ADHS statistics note that young natives aged 20 to 44 have a 147 percent higher death rate than average. Rampant diabetes and high rates of alcoholism, which have ravaged many tribal communities, also factor in lower life expectancy.

So why do Indians live longer?
One reason could be that elders continue to play a vital role in their communities. All tribes in Arizona cherish and honor their elders. During community functions, elders are always served first. Elder centers provide places for elders to have meals together, do crafts and visit."

And, that last point goes to what I have been saying about Social Security and how it has led to the elderly population in this country to be left behind by their children. (a FACT someone on this very board is in total denial of)

The fact that we aren't is a national disgrace.

The lifestyles of people in this country are a national disgrace. All of the healthcare in the world won't prevent diabetes and heart disease from killing more and more people in this country.

[vision]

Indians.

[woodchip]

When vision can't reply he falls back to a comedians You tube. Way to go.

[Spidey]

Yea, just the kind of honest discussion I was talking about.

[vision]

Yea, just the kind of honest discussion I was talking about.

It's great the Arizona Capital Times are still calling Native Americans "Indians." What a classy rag.

I guess I should point out the obvious that nation health care would also include mental health care. This means people with disorders like alcoholism, over/under-eating, drug abuse, etc, etc, etc... could get the help they need early and lead longer, healthier lives. This would also help mitigate the problems of poverty. Yes there are other cultural factors involved, but that still doesn't excuse or negate the ridiculous amount to money paid for health care few receive. There are many steps that need to be takes to achieve a healthy USA. Providing good, accessible health care is one part, not a final solution, and no one here has made such a claim.

[Spidey]

Your fabulous federal government still calls them Indians as well…..

“Health care few receive”….give me a break, do you honestly believe only a few receive health care in this country?

[vision]

Your fabulous federal government still calls them Indians as well…..

And it should stop immediately. It is stupid.

….give me a break, do you honestly believe only a few receive health care in this country?

Sorry, my post was alluding to high quality, comprehensive care like our Canadian neighbors have. There are a lot of people who pay quite a bit for care that doesn't cover certain valuable and necessary prescriptions and procedures, and mental health coverage in the United States is truly pathetic.

[callmeslick]

Your fabulous federal government still calls them Indians as well…..

“Health care few receive”….give me a break, do you honestly believe only a few receive health care in this country?

only a relative few receive what I'd call top-quality healthcare, which is about the sort of preventative, strong basic healthcare requiring regular visits to doctors.

[woodchip]

Your fabulous federal government still calls them Indians as well…..

“Health care few receive”….give me a break, do you honestly believe only a few receive health care in this country?

only a relative few receive what I'd call top-quality healthcare, which is about the sort of preventative, strong basic healthcare requiring regular visits to doctors.

So you're saying the Great White Father isn't taking care of the health needs of his little red children?

[callmeslick]

Your fabulous federal government still calls them Indians as well…..

“Health care few receive”….give me a break, do you honestly believe only a few receive health care in this country?

only a relative few receive what I'd call top-quality healthcare, which is about the sort of preventative, strong basic healthcare requiring regular visits to doctors.

So you're saying the Great White Father isn't taking care of the health needs of his little red children?

um, no, but that is charmingly racist and stupid all at once. I am saying that our system prices decent, fundamental healthcare out of the reach of most people due to a host of complexities within our healthcare system. The core problem is health insurance as we have it, but there are other systematic problems, as well.