Fair competition & gender

[snoopy]

Link

We segregate athletic competition by gender to try to make things more fair.... so how do we define someone's gender - or is segregation by gender an archaic concept?

I think the root of this is a question of identification by self-perception vs. identification by physical design.

Here's my pandora's box question: If we're going to keep competition segregated by gender, and we're going to define gender by expressed self-identification... what's going to keep some guy from doing nothing physiologically, claiming to be female, and raking in the wins? If I was more of an athlete and felt like being a jerk, I'd be tempted to do it just to piss people off.

[callmeslick]

was reading this story the other day, and having similar thoughts......I suppose it could be said that, for the sake of competition, being PHYSICALLY male or female(as opposed to self-identification) would be the determiner(as they did here). On the other hand, the individual, to be competetive doesn't have to MERELY be male to be superior at the competition. Looks to me as if an awful lot of work would have to be expended, gender aside.

[woodchip]

The old East German women's team had male characteristics and still competed as females. Look at all the gold medals they won. Better living thru chemistry I guess.

[snoopy]

was reading this story the other day, and having similar thoughts......I suppose it could be said that, for the sake of competition, being PHYSICALLY male or female(as opposed to self-identification) would be the determiner(as they did here). On the other hand, the individual, to be competetive doesn't have to MERELY be male to be superior at the competition. Looks to me as if an awful lot of work would have to be expended, gender aside.

No question... some Joe like me couldn't beat professional female athletes. But... if I was a professional athlete and wanted to make a statement in something like track & field? The numbers speak for themselves... male physiology has a distinct advantage over female physiology. I did a spot check: The number one all-time 1500 record for women is 3:50.46. The US mens provisional olympic qualifying time is 3:43.00.... so the best female 1500 runner of all time wouldn't even qualify in the men's event.

But... on the physical part: the gender changing hormone treatments take time, right? So when do you decide that the transition is "complete?" And... since the hormonal treatments are basically the same thing as what people use to cheat when doping... how do you define the difference between cheating and just maintaining your self-identified gender's physiology? On the male - to - female transition: is it cheating to forget to take your testosterone suppression stuff?

I see it as pandora's box. I'm not seeing a way to be both fair and inclusive of trans gender athletes.... unless you make more gender categories than two....

[Will Robinson]

Isnt there some marker, chromosome difference or something like that in the dna that differentiates what has, in the past, traditionally been known as male and female? If so just use that.

If not, who is to say that professional sport organizations can't have a private membership and make their own determination of who can join?
The PGA refuses Tiger Tigress Woods application to compete in their tournaments....etc.

It is an interesting predicament.

[Tunnelcat]

Once a person starts taking sex hormones as part of a sex change, the body changes, despite the DNA. Take away testosterone, muscle mass and strength quickly lessen. I'd wager to say that a person who used to be a male and then went through the transition to become a female, AND had their testes removed as part of that transition and is taking the appropriate estrogen therapy, any advantage from being a male previously is now most certainly lost. I see no advantage for her competing as a female against other females.

[callmeslick]

I'm with Snoopy here....just a Pandora's Box of issues that wouldn't resolve easily. Easiest approach: if you have a Y chromosome, you're in the men's division. As noted, the hormone treatments deal with some significant physiological changes, but at varying rates, and no doubt affected by prior physical training and activity before the individual decided to switch sides.

[Will Robinson]

It is really a non issue from a statistical point of view. Very few peoples lives will be affected by this.
Which makes it a perfect political football!
Expect the Congress to tie itself up for years on this and avoid real issues so they can take a safe position....either side of the debate..make lots of polarizing speeches rallying their base to donate to them for their 'brave stance' on this instead of working on the important stuff that would require them to cross party lines.

Sometimes being a cynical realist just frikken hurts.

[Top Gun]

This really is a thorny issue. Obviously identifying as a certain gender doesn't affect the physical sexual-based characteristics (including muscle mass and endurance) that you were born with, and while hormonal treatments can mitigate that, there will always be questions around to what extent it's mitigated, or how far along the person is, or things of that nature. And sometimes it's not even a question of gender identity: woodchip mentioned those East German gymnasts who were so pumped full of testosterone, they were essentially physically male in everything but the plumbing. And then there was the case of Caster Semenya, the female South African track star who was forced to undergo gender testing because of her outward appearance and extremely-fast times; the poor woman basically had the whole thing turned into a public spectacle because of the shitty way in which the sport's governing bodies handled it. Neither genetic testing nor physical examination are always accurate in determining if someone is biologically male or female. I'm not really sure I know what the answer should be for either circumstance: I think at the end of the day it's going to have to be on a case-by-case basis.

[woodchip]

So what is the difference bewtween a female to male tranny using testosterone to bulk up muscle and a normal guy using steroids to bulk up muscle?

[Will Robinson]

So what is the difference bewtween a female to male tranny using testosterone to bulk up muscle and a normal guy using steroids to bulk up muscle?

One has penis envy the other is overcompensating for having a little one?

[Top Gun]

So what is the difference bewtween a female to male tranny using testosterone to bulk up muscle and a normal guy using steroids to bulk up muscle?

The main difference would be that testosterone as a hormonal treatment isn't meant solely to bulk up muscle, but to impact overall outward appearance (body hair, breast reduction, and so on). It does affect muscle mass too, though, which is why it's such a difficult issue to figure out.