DescentBB

Yes, quite well deserving of our trust.

...the Obama administration could be facing a genuine scandal about its treatment of military veterans that has the potential to attract broad political condemnation of its competence.

The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is facing mounting evidence that some of the hospitals it runs have been keeping two sets of books to make it look as if they were reducing waiting times to see a doctor.

More damning, the department is investigating the claims of a whistleblower doctor in Arizona that dozens of patients at one hospital died while they were languishing on a hidden waiting list without ever being given an appointment...

Imagine if we went single-payer. Would we all suffer the same fate?

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/328546c0 ... z31uxPeyax

why is the right-wing making such loony comparisons? Look, the VA has been a mess for years. Somewhat due to bureaucracy, but largely due to chronic underfunding. Then, when the baby boomer aged Nam vets started having health issues, and a huge influx came in after Iraq and Afghan wars, they collapsed. Where that compares to single-payer healthcare eludes me, because nothing about that entails maintaining a system of doctors, hospitals, labs, clinics and support centers like the VA has to. What it shows is that taxes do have a purpose, and that budgets do matter, and if some weasel politicians like to cut corners with the VA budget to fund pet projects, or worse, to 'keep government small', people get hurt. In this case, those people served the nation by risking their very lives. Tragic.

The whole American medical system is a mess and it's not because of Obamacare. My general internist doc just retired. I can't find a new one who will take a new patient inside of 7 months and I have good insurance too. Still looking....

Slick, it also shows that if you depend on the federal government to oversee your health care it is such a large flustercuck that thousands of patients suffer daily for years before it's monumental failure even becomes semi newsworthy.

Too many powerful people have reason to hide the failures.
Taxes don't fix that, in fact more revenue just makes it more lucrative for them to hide it.

So a capitalist system is better? There's no accounting there either. They just take the money, if you have it, and shove you out the door. Who's gonna care? Hospitals do it all the time. It's called patient dumping.

http://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement/cm ... umping.asp

Yea, and the government collects its fines…and the beat goes on….

TC, "dumping" implies the patients get sent to a county hospital where the government covers the cost. But I don't think a patient that is dumped goes on a six month waiting list!

Granted dumped patients don't get the kind of care they would like but from what I'm reading they would like the VA solution even less.

That result is all on the federal government. Face it the VA should be a model system if you want to convince people the government knows best. Instead it is turning out to be a model for the anti-government solution.

People die all the time in both hospitals and at home even with private insurance. I'm sure the treatment of vets really keeps you guys up at night.

Will Robinson wrote:Slick, it also shows that if you depend on the federal government to oversee your health care it is such a large flustercuck that thousands of patients suffer daily for years before it's monumental failure even becomes semi newsworthy.

Too many powerful people have reason to hide the failures.
Taxes don't fix that, in fact more revenue just makes it more lucrative for them to hide it.

not the fault of a government model if it is underfunded for 20 years or more.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Slick, it also shows that if you depend on the federal government to oversee your health care it is such a large flustercuck that thousands of patients suffer daily for years before it's monumental failure even becomes semi newsworthy.

Too many powerful people have reason to hide the failures.
Taxes don't fix that, in fact more revenue just makes it more lucrative for them to hide it.

not the fault of a government model if it is underfunded for 20 years or more.

First, the premise of your excuse is questionable as the only cause for all the horrible things they do but more importantly it is a truly childlike lame excuse.

We didn't elect any government 'model' to run our country.
We elected adults to do it.

If the adults found veterans having to wait 6 months for appointments they should have gone public with the situation instead of hiding the facts by creating unofficial waiting lists so that the six month wait disappeared from their record keeping!

It is, or should be, criminal, and we haven't stooped quite that low yet to purposely elect criminals. If the reaction by the administration is to escape this the way they have attempted to escape things like Benghazi then they are complicit. We shall see. So far they have reacted like roaches looking for the shadows when the lights come on.
If all they do is offer your funding excuse then they are the root of the problem.

When Ambassador Stevens alerted the State Department that he needed more security in Bengahzi the State Department spent $700,000 on landscaping on their Brussels embassy but cut back on Stevens security.
They could have found the money and defended the budget management irregularities like adults. They do as much all the time for their own selfish needs...Pelosi used Air Force jets to pick up her grandchildren and assorted family from all across the country and fly them to vacation spots all under some nebulous 'right' to spend the money for her 'security' as Speaker...

Likewise, when a natural disaster hits the President can send people and money rushing into a problem to solve it. Money not in the budget (as if we even have one).

So, assuming your excuse holds water...

If I was in charge I'd declare this a national emergency and send people and money to solve it and tell the Congress to go piss up a rope if they want to try and go before the voters and run on the premise it isn't.
I'd go on TV and tell them why I did it and that I told Congress to solve the issue in the budget or they would be answering to the voters. And then I would know I did the right thing for the right reasons and I'd face the consequences of my actions like a responsible adult.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Slick, it also shows that if you depend on the federal government to oversee your health care it is such a large flustercuck that thousands of patients suffer daily for years before it's monumental failure even becomes semi newsworthy.

Too many powerful people have reason to hide the failures.
Taxes don't fix that, in fact more revenue just makes it more lucrative for them to hide it.

not the fault of a government model if it is underfunded for 20 years or more.

And you think Obama care will fare any better? And you wonder why we are suspicious that death panels will become a reality. Try going to the Social Security website and you will see there is only enough workers to support SS until 2033. your statement that a govt. program is not funded well is laughable. The truth is the money is mismanaged and wasted, underfunded is a excuse.

regarding SS, you are correct, but the fix is easy, and relatively painless. The top threshold for SS taxes has not been raised in years. Move it up around 100K in income, and problem solved....forever. What is galling to me is the never-ending drumbeat of 'you can't trust government to do(fill in blank)'. In a modern, large society you all better get together and figure out that you HAVE to trust government, and then put the time into keeping up with the missteps. This is NOT the same as bitching about every word from Obama's mouth. This is NOT the same as running sham Congressional inquiries. It is, as it is in the private sector, a matter of constantly monitoring effectiveness and outcomes.

without Government, and a STRONG Federal government, we are, collectively, doomed.

B-but the Articles of Confederation were really awesome and we should totally go back to them!

worked so well the first time around!

callmeslick wrote:It is, as it is in the private sector, a matter of constantly monitoring effectiveness and outcomes.

You're a fool. In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

CUDA wrote:

callmeslick wrote:It is, as it is in the private sector, a matter of constantly monitoring effectiveness and outcomes.

You're a fool. In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

don't get out much, do you, my friend? In the private sector, the foxes are bleeding the purse dry, they're just doing so on the backs of their workers at the lower levels, and the consumers who accept the market, as is. Look into how corporate boards work, and get back to me with the whole matter of foxes and henhouses.

slick you are off the mark.
The CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield can't put me in jail for not buying his product and he can't officially exempt himself from the law.

Will Robinson wrote:slick you are off the mark.
The CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield can't put me in jail for not buying his product and he can't officially exempt himself from the law.

How many Wall Street CEO's went to jail after causing the Great Recession? Just curious. Oh wait, that was Obama's fault.

Totally missed the point again didnt you slick.
Or are you intentionally playing ignorant?

CUDA wrote:Totally missed the point again didnt you slick.
Or are you intentionally playing ignorant?

no, I didn't. You are making assertions about government spending that can EASILY be made of private enterprise. Sorry, I'm never going to be on board with the 'government is bad' idea. Ever.

CUDA wrote:In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

That is because the private sector IS the fox.

Krom wrote:

CUDA wrote:In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

That is because the private sector IS the fox.

putting my point a bit differently, Krom, but quite well, indeed.

Krom wrote:

CUDA wrote:In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

That is because the private sector IS the fox.

Your delusional if you dont think there inst more corruption and waste in the public sector then in the private

CUDA wrote:Your delusional if you dont think there inst more corruption and waste in the public sector then in the private

And its corrupt because of conflict of interest with the private sector. The private sector itself is the corrupting influence in the public sector. Get it in your head, eliminating government will not fix the corruption, it will just make it legal.

vision wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:slick you are off the mark.
The CEO of Blue Cross Blue Shield can't put me in jail for not buying his product and he can't officially exempt himself from the law.

How many Wall Street CEO's went to jail after causing the Great Recession? Just curious. Oh wait, that was Obama's fault.

vision- the strawman delivery agent.

How many wall street execs can put you in jail for failing to buy the product they determined you need to buy? And exempt themselves from the same law? The government does this as a standard practice.
How many wall street types go to jail for carrying debt on the balance sheet as an asset to fool the stockholders/citizen taxpayers? The government does this with impunity.

No, the private sector isn't perfect but the idea that government is somehow less likely to get it wrong is false.
The idea that once they get it wrong they are more likely to be over-ruled/punished by, well... by themselves?!? Lol!

Well, you get the picture even if your knee jerk ideological allegiance wont permit you to publically admit it.

In context, and in simple terms the difference is this: If the VA was a completely private contractor hired by government to design and administer healthcare to the veterans and this discovery was made team Obama would come down on them full force. But since it is his own administration that ultimately is in charge of the disaster it is left up to excuse makers to try and weasel out of it.

Krom wrote:

CUDA wrote:Your delusional if you dont think there inst more corruption and waste in the public sector then in the private

And its corrupt because of conflict of interest with the private sector. The private sector itself is the corrupting influence in the public sector. Get it in your head, eliminating government will not fix the corruption, it will just make it legal.

And again like a poor marksman you keep missing the target.

the GOVERNMENT is supposed to be the policing entity. Not the other way around.

The GOVERNMENT is allowing and encouraging the corruption. Not the other way around.

The GOVERNMENT is the fox guarding the hen house.

The GOVERNMENT is elected by the people to protect us from corporate greed. Not sleep with them

CUDA wrote:And again like a poor marksman you keep missing the target.

the GOVERNMENT is supposed to be the policing entity. Not the other way around.

The GOVERNMENT is allowing and encouraging the corruption. Not the other way around.

The GOVERNMENT is the fox guarding the hen house.

The GOVERNMENT is elected by the people to protect us from corporate greed. Not sleep with them

You just don't get it. You keep saying "GOVERNMENT" over and over again like a broken record as if it means something. Effectively in many areas we do not have a government, what we have is private industry masquerading as government. Your statements here only work when you take in to account that private industry ate, digested and metabolized the government (and unless something is done, we're next on the menu). The government doesn't exist anymore, what you are calling government is in fact private industry.

The first step to a solution is recognizing the actual problem. We need a government, we need a REAL government, we need an EFFECTIVE government and we do not have these right now.

Agreed, and someone also suggested “strong” as well, but we should only let the government be as powerful as it needs to be.

You've got no argument with me there Krom.

Krom, you are right on target there but in light of that reality the notion some are putting forth, that the corrupted government is a better steward, is silly.
It merely means you have cut out a layer that has at least some vulnerability to legitimate investigation of their practices and instead given the perpetrators more power.

Instead of politicians waiting to be bribed to excuse bad operators the politicians set their own price for the rights to be their favored 'bad operator' and charge us taxpayers a 'fee' for their making the choice!

A truly reformed government would be one where the private industry can't buy exemptions from the law.

Of course we would need a reformed fourth estate to make it possible because the current government isn't going to reform itself without being faced with assured destruction at the polls. Right now too many 'journalists' are busy acting as sheepdogs for their preferred Party. Instead of chasing all the wolves away they are selecting which wolves get to feed off the flock!

For Krom:

A Joke by Bill Maher.

"The Problem With Obamacare Isn't Too Much Socialism, It's Still Too Much Capitalism"

Will Robinson wrote:TC, "dumping" implies the patients get sent to a county hospital where the government covers the cost. But I don't think a patient that is dumped goes on a six month waiting list!

Granted dumped patients don't get the kind of care they would like but from what I'm reading they would like the VA solution even less.

That result is all on the federal government. Face it the VA should be a model system if you want to convince people the government knows best. Instead it is turning out to be a model for the anti-government solution.

Dammit, first of all, BUSH is the one who cut funding to the VA, so quit blaming Obama. By the way, BUSH created the large numbers of "patients" that are now overwhelming the VA system because HE decided that 2 wars were "necessary" and that balancing the federal budget was far more important than the funding to care for our returning soldiers.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17117430/ns/p ... -big-cuts/

http://irregulartimes.com/solvingveterans.html

If you listened to BUSH's propaganda, everything was all rosy and nice and he really cared about our vets. Yeah, suuuuuure!

http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives. ... erans.html

I'm also getting tired of the constant praise heaped upon our great and wonderful for profit medical system. IT SUCKS! If you're old, first it bankrupts you, then it leaves you to die once you're broke. Wait until you get old and sick, then you'll figure it out. The system will take you in, eat you alive and spit out what's left. Almighty profit is more important than human lives in any capitalist endeavor.

Patient dumping is more common than you think Will. What else is some medical facility going to do if someone can't PAY their bill, or comes in with a disease they can't treat long term without the cash to pay for it? And for your information, Reagan was the one who oversaw the creation of one hell of an unfunded mandate called EMTALA, which forces hospitals to treat everyone who's brought into an emergency room. So guess what happens if those people can't pay, they get dumped somewhere else like so much garbage and everyone else STILL gets stuck with the tab. Plus, doctors are dumping, or not even accepting, patients who are on Medicaid.

http://newamericamedia.org/2010/07/dump ... tients.php

[youtube]jeGFIL4BD_M[/youtube]

CUDA wrote:

Krom wrote:

CUDA wrote:In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

That is because the private sector IS the fox.

Your delusional if you dont think there inst more corruption and waste in the public sector then in the private

you do need to get out more. If you have a few days to waste in the next, say, decade or so, come East, and we'll spend a few days sitting in the Delaware Chancery Court. It would make you see the error in the quoted statement you made. I'll take you to some nice restaurants afterward, to make up for the tedium of 8 hours per day of corporate greed, stupidity, fraud, waste and the like.

single-player?

woodchip wrote:

callmeslick wrote:
not the fault of a government model if it is underfunded for 20 years or more.

And you think Obama care will fare any better? And you wonder why we are suspicious that death panels will become a reality. Try going to the Social Security website and you will see there is only enough workers to support SS until 2033. your statement that a govt. program is not funded well is laughable. The truth is the money is mismanaged and wasted, underfunded is a excuse.

Let me throw this in. The VA is not underfunded (unless someone can show me info):

"The budget for the VA has risen from $73.1bn in 2006 to $153.8bn this year."

So slick, unless you can show how the VA budget was the cause of the vets dying, then you will have to revamp your statement .

callmeslick wrote:

CUDA wrote:

Krom wrote:

CUDA wrote:In the private sector the fox isnt guarding the hen house.

That is because the private sector IS the fox.

Your delusional if you dont think there inst more corruption and waste in the public sector then in the private

you do need to get out more. If you have a few days to waste in the next, say, decade or so, come East, and we'll spend a few days sitting in the Delaware Chancery Court. It would make you see the error in the quoted statement you made. I'll take you to some nice restaurants afterward, to make up for the tedium of 8 hours per day of corporate greed, stupidity, fraud, waste and the like.

slick, I don't think you are helping your position by that invitation!

Unless he is going to watch government offenders get prosecuted for 8 hours a day....
Telling us you can watch the private sector get dealt with in court and not able to show us a like situation where government gets the same justice doesn't do away with the premise that the government is usually beyond the reach of justice. Thus the 'fox guarding the hen house' analogy...

Will Robinson wrote:slick, I don't think you are helping your position by that invitation!

Unless he is going to watch government offenders get prosecuted for 8 hours a day....
Telling us you can watch the private sector get dealt with in court and not able to show us a like situation where government gets the same justice doesn't do away with the premise that the government is usually beyond the reach of justice. Thus the 'fox guarding the hen house' analogy...

Chancery Court deals with lawsuits between corporations, Will, or between individuals who have been screwed over and corporations. A great object lesson, actually, for seeing where the REAL fraud, waste and criminality in our society lies. And, it isn't with the government.