DescentBB

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... ecure.html

SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV): I believe our number one concern should be this narrow issue of how we take care of this situation we have on the border. As I’ve been told, the Cornyn-Cuellar legislation covers a lot of other issues other than the problem we’re having on the border. Had we done comprehensive immigration reform, we wouldn't be having this issue. And everyone here, the border is secure.

that doesn't even string together as a readable set of sentences.....

of course, it's tough to say how 'safe' the border is. Heck, some folks can't tell a YMCA summer camper from a refugee child. Yeesh!
http://www.azcentral.com/story/brahm-re ... /12701279/

And that relates to the OP how?

like I said, from your words, typed, I couldn't make sense of what ol' Harry really was saying. I suspect some verbiage was left out......not that such was done for some purpose, mind you. I just find the whole situation near-comical, except for the fact that several thousand children are risking their lives to live in a nation of opportunity. The hate, stupidity and over-reaction over the border situation are, at this point, rendering any sensible approach to the situation nearly impossible.

callmeslick wrote:like I said, from your words, typed, I couldn't make sense of what ol' Harry really was saying. I suspect some verbiage was left out......not that such was done for some purpose, mind you. I just find the whole situation near-comical, except for the fact that several thousand children are risking their lives to live in a nation of opportunity. The hate, stupidity and over-reaction over the border situation are, at this point, rendering any sensible approach to the situation nearly impossible.

Yea any sensible approach to the situation is impossible' lol.
I guess because all those warnings from his own agencies over the last 6 months didn't catch up to Obama on the beach, or golf course, or fund raising trail so he is 'just now finding out about it on the news like we are' like he does with everything else that happens under his watch.

We really shouldn't criticize him and the Dems, they are doing the best they can right?
And somewhere along the way I bet the Bush's dog ate his kids homework too!

Will Robinson wrote:

callmeslick wrote:like I said, from your words, typed, I couldn't make sense of what ol' Harry really was saying. I suspect some verbiage was left out......not that such was done for some purpose, mind you. I just find the whole situation near-comical, except for the fact that several thousand children are risking their lives to live in a nation of opportunity. The hate, stupidity and over-reaction over the border situation are, at this point, rendering any sensible approach to the situation nearly impossible.

Yea any sensible approach to the situation is impossible' lol.
I guess because all those warnings from his own agencies over the last 6 months didn't catch up to Obama on the beach, or golf course, or fund raising trail so he is 'just now finding out about it on the news like we are' like he does with everything else that happens under his watch.

We really shouldn't criticize him and the Dems, they are doing the best they can right?
And somewhere along the way I bet the Bush's dog ate his kids homework too!

those are just the predictable ups and downs that will happen in a gridlock situation. Why won't Boehner put the Senate Immigration bill up for a vote? I'm not suggesting that(or anything) will solve ALL problems with the borders or illegal immigration.....nothing works so simply. But, it would bring solid improvement, and a framework to move forward, yet no vote......why?

Solution 1…Take them all in.
Solution 2…Spend billions micro managing each child.*
Solution 3…Send them all back.

*Was watching this woman from the immigration court saying we need to hire a bunch more judges and other personnel.

I say if they have family here legally, let them stay, charge the family to come pick them up. (any relative willing to take them will do)

What do you do with the rest…start immigrant orphanages?

callmeslick wrote:..
those are just the predictable ups and downs that will happen in a gridlock situation...

I think you just tried to sweep a huge chunk of wilful-disregard-for-the-sake-of-agenda-advancement under that rug. Now it looks like a big lump of bullcrap under there...

Immigration reform is just a code word for another bulk amnesty, its been done before.

What “reform” you’re here legally or you're not.

Spidey wrote:Solution 1…Take them all in.
Solution 2…Spend billions micro managing each child.*
Solution 3…Send them all back.

*Was watching this woman from the immigration court saying we need to hire a bunch more judges and other personnel.

I say if they have family here legally, let them stay, charge the family to come pick them up. (any relative willing to take them will do)

What do you do with the rest…start immigrant orphanages?

that latter part IS a real problem. From what I've read, over half of them don't have family(even extended) here. You likely would have to relocate them around the nation(as opposed to a few huge orphanages) in small numbers each place. Won't be cheap, but this nation has done the same for refugees from Haiti, a host of African nations, a slew of Middle Eastern nations, etc,etc. I applaud you for at least trying to break down the subtlety of the whole matter, Spidey.
Some legislative things that the stalled bill would address is both the numbers of immigration judges to process,as well as addressing the current law that encourages some to come here(which currently allows refugees to bring their entire family to the US after 3 years legal status here).

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninsca ... e_free.php

as close to an accurate summary as you can read.

callmeslick wrote:
Won't be cheap, but this nation has done the same for refugees from Haiti, a host of African nations, a slew of Middle Eastern nations, etc,etc. I applaud you for at least trying to break down the subtlety of the whole matter, Spidey.
.

Funny I don't recall 100's of thousands of Africans,Haiti or middle eastern kids flooding our boarders. You got some proof of what you are alluding to?

callmeslick wrote:like I said, from your words, typed,

New to the internet??? it was a quote, Nice try and the Alinski tactic of trying to demonize me to discredit my post on something I never wrote OR even commented on. TRY HARDER next time

I couldn't make sense of what ol' Harry really was saying.

welcome to our world. now you know how those of us with any comprehension skills feel every time he or Old Joe speak

I suspect some verbiage was left out......

that's why I included the link to a site that you tout REGULARLY for it's objectiveness. which includes the Video. didn't watch it did you

I just find the whole situation near-comical,

So did 90% of America when they heard him say it

The hate, stupidity and over-reaction over the border situation are, at this point, rendering any sensible approach to the situation nearly impossible.

there you go again with the Alinski tactics. it's attitudes like yours that make debate impossible. you don't wish to talk, you only try to shame people into thinking your way

and what was it slick was saying?????

A new intelligence assessment concludes that misperceptions about U.S. immigration policy – and not Central American violence – are fueling the surge of thousands of children illegally crossing the Mexican border.

The 10-page July 7 report was issued by the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC), which according to the Justice Department website is led by the DEA and incorporates Homeland Security. Its focus is on the collection and distribution of tactical intelligence, information which can immediately be acted on by law enforcement.

"Of the 230 migrants interviewed, 219 cited the primary reason for migrating to the United States was the perception of U.S. immigration laws granting free passes or permisos to UAC (unaccompanied children) and adult females OTMs (other than Mexicans) traveling with minors,” the report said

ya keep telling us how they are coming here to escape the violence

you can blabber like a fool CUDA about 'Alinski tactics'(I think misspelled, but I never read his stuff), and dance around Reid's words all you want. Just answer me this: Why won't the Senate bill be brought to the floor, when it is likely to pass the house and give us the START of a new approach to immigration?

callmeslick wrote:you can blabber like a fool CUDA about 'Alinski tactics'(I think misspelled, but I never read his stuff), and dance around Reid's words all you want. Just answer me this: Why won't the Senate bill be brought to the floor, when it is likely to pass the house and give us the START of a new approach to immigration?

It cant possibly be that anyone out there is opposed to the content of the Senate Bill....so it must be that they are all racists and as soon as white guy is president they will pass it.

I'm not saying SOME folks are opposed, but the bill WOULD carry the House with a 25-30 vote majority, at least. Likely far more, with elections looming.

callmeslick wrote:I'm not saying SOME folks are opposed, but the bill WOULD carry the House with a 25-30 vote majority, at least. Likely far more, with elections looming.

Well then the people in control of what comes up to vote in the House are doing the same thing Harry Reid does in the Senate when he doesn't want the outcome that is looming on the other side of a straight up vote.

what was it you said about if you want a different outcome win more elections...?

callmeslick wrote:you can blabber like a fool CUDA about 'Alinski tactics'(I think misspelled, but I never read his stuff), and dance around Reid's words all you want. Just answer me this: Why won't the Senate bill be brought to the floor, when it is likely to pass the house and give us the START of a new approach to immigration?

OH probably for the same reasons that the Senate/ Harry Reid never brings any of the House bills to the Senate floor for a Vote. I guess you reap what you sow HUH.

you can blabber like a fool CUDA about 'Alinski tactics'(I think misspelled, but I never read his stuff),

I notice how you didn't deny it. and just because you "don't read it" doesn't mean you don't do it or didn't learn from someone that does. but the facts are undeniable just read your own posts as evidence.
when I invited you to this forum it was because we used to have some good substantive debates even with the Tards of CWOS butting in. now you don't even attempt to debate. you go right to the discredit tact every time you post. Shame really, there was a time when you actually had valid points. maybe it was because on CWOS as the lone liberal you TRIED to defend your position, but as other liberals started to join you abandoned that position. and you have done the same on this forum, you like to feed off the other liberals here puffing your chest saying LOOK AT ME I'm the BMFOC. so I ask you, who's the fool?? the fool or the fool that follows

Well, House Republicans refuse to do anything about immigration reform and then claim it's all Obama's fault. Probably because they don't want any fingerprints on it. Then, Republicans say Obama has overstepped his authority and whine or threaten impeachment/lawsuits when he's forced to something because of the House's inaction. Plus, the law that's been causing all this recent ruckus was designed to save children from human trafficking and was signed by Bush in 2008. Talk about a time bomb. I guess Obama can't win for losing, can he?

http://theweek.com/article/index/264707 ... -hypocrisy

Then you've got idiots like this House Rep trying to spread some age old FUD about the Central American immigrant children. This is kind of a rehashed fear, isn't it? He doesn't seem to realize that Guatemalans are tend to better vaccinated (something he opposes in our own country) than many American children and that Ebola is primarily an African disease.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/07/1 ... immigrants

We're a country of immigrants, but we only accept white European immigrants.

http://borderbattles.ssrc.org/Hirschman/

sorry to disappoint you CUDA, but the pheonomenon you are observing is my attempt to keep somewhat civil in the face in increasingly whiney, weak arguments from the right. At least, at one time, on foreign policy they had American Exceptionalism and all that flowed from it. Well, that was proven by realpolitik to be completely bogus, so now there is no foreign policy except OBAMA BAD!! BAD,BAD,BAD. On the economic side, the right was always for balanced budgets, until Bush blew that up completely with a tax code that guarantees massive, chronic deficits unless the budget is slashed in ways no one in the public will support. Now the economic policy is, IF OBAMA IS FOR IT, WE ARE AGAINST IT, with no common sense or logic to back up the arguments. Don't even ask about consistency of arguments. In short, I no longer HAVE to defend the liberal position. The reasoning and positions are common knowledge, and there is no coherent oppositon past Obama-Hate. Really, there isn't. Pick an issue: Immigration, Economics, Tax Policy, Foreign policy, Spending cuts, nothing to see but negativity, which isn't a position. I haven't taken my game down, or gone on a rest period, CUDA, I just have nothing coherent to debate against.

Well if the US government is providing safe havens for children who are the victims of gang violence, then we should start sending our own children to the border.

That’s a response to all of the people shouting “huddled masses” “refugees” ”asylum” etc.

TC that law was created under Clinton, it has been "re-authorized" under Bush AND Obama.
Also, and this is the part that matters, only under Obama has it been interpreted to give anyone who is a child or can claim to be connected to a child to declare fear from the violence in their home country and receive sanctuary. That law you are helping Obama hide behind was designed to give VICTIMS and WITNESSES WHO TESTIFY of sex trafficking and slavery some sanctuary so prosecutions could go forward.

It isn't the law that is the cause of the problem and it isn't the law that is in the way of deportation. It is the new interpretation (read:Obama exploitation) of the law that is doing that. So please stop making lame excuses for him. He really doesn't deserve the protection you give him. Not even close to deserving it.

Spidey wrote:Well if the US government is providing safe havens for children who are the victims of gang violence, then we should start sending our own children to the border.

if you feel that is a better life for them, go for it.

That’s a response to all of the people shouting “huddled masses” “refugees” ”asylum” etc.

don't see quite how, but run with it, Spidey.

the story of those kids coming here to escape violence is ANOTHER LIE

A new intelligence assessment concludes that misperceptions about U.S. immigration policy – and not Central American violence – are fueling the surge of thousands of children illegally crossing the Mexican border.

The 10-page July 7 report was issued by the El Paso Intelligence Center (EPIC), which according to the Justice Department website is led by the DEA and incorporates Homeland Security. Its focus is on the collection and distribution of tactical intelligence, information which can immediately be acted on by law enforcement.

"Of the 230 migrants interviewed, 219 cited the primary reason for migrating to the United States was the perception of U.S. immigration laws granting free passes or permisos to UAC (unaccompanied children) and adult females OTMs (other than Mexicans) traveling with minors,” the report said

so they asked a batch of 270 out of, what, 50,000? I'm not ready to jump to conclusions, CUDA.....but, you seem to be. The bottom line is this: these young people are coming here for a better life, and are willing to risk a 1200-mile(est) journey full of hustlers, rapists, killers and just plain nasty conditions from start to finish to get here. Isn't that what has brought folks to these shores since,the 1640s? Isn't that why the French gave us a statue in the late 19th century which spoke glowingly of a great nation willing to give the poor, huddled masses a second chance? Isn't that the driver behind the millions who have come here and contributed to the very things that make this nation unique and great? What happened to that spirit?

I doubt anything at all happened to that spirit, but this country has changed, as you love to point out, no longer the vast vacant lands of old…and now we have these things called laws and stuff, not to mention all of the other issues like strained social programs and limited employment opportunities and such.

Personally, the only problem I have with the immigration issue as a whole is obeying the laws. (not this children problem per se)

Just obey the laws, that’s all I ask, but seems too much to ask for.

Spidey wrote:I doubt anything at all happened to that spirit, but this country has changed, as you love to point out, no longer the vast vacant lands of old…and now we have these things called laws and stuff, not to mention all of the other issues like strained social programs and limited employment opportunities and such.

and, if you go back in the archives of the nation, you will find the same objections....and, I'd hate to think what the natives said about my folks arriving on their fishing lands. I would argue that available land is the least of our issues, and absorbing 50,000 or even 100,000 people into a nation of 350 million really isn't quite the big deal some wish to make it, for political reasons.

[quote\Personally, the only problem I have with the immigration issue as a whole is obeying the laws. (not this children problem per se)

Just obey the laws, that’s all I ask, but seems too much to ask for.[/quote]
people seem to forget that the tightening of the laws is relatively recent, and was largely driven by xenophobia winning out long enough to get them passed. You see, that almost gets to the point of trying to legislate away the very human, and very natural urge for humans to migrate to safer places.

Fairly recent, like when my family came here over a century ago, you mean like that kind of recent?

Spidey wrote:Fairly recent, like when my family came here over a century ago, you mean like that kind of recent?

lessee, a century ago was around the first World War.....so, they likely had to overcome quotas, which were pretty generous. Now, depending on where they hailed from, some places sent far more folks here than the quotas allowed. Some were turned away, many of them returned, some never did. At any rate, they at least could come here via relatively safe passage compared to what these folks of late are dealing with. Many who now consider themselves Americans(my wife is a fine example) have at least one relative who had no legal documentation of arrival(her grandfather came here from Sicily and was NEVER documented in a census or immigration record). So, this problem is not new, has been exploited at various times for political gain by both major parties, and frankly, when one looks back on any of it(from No Irish Need Apply, to mocking WOPs, to the isolation of Eastern European Jews into tenament slums, etc) looks both tawdry and stupid in retrospect. So it is and shall be with the current disgusting round of xenophobia, hysteria and general stupidity around Central American immigrants.

callmeslick wrote:so they asked a batch of 270 out of, what, 50,000? I'm not ready to jump to conclusions, CUDA.....but, you seem to be.

don't understand how a statistical sampling survey works do you. when 95% of the people surveyed give you an answer you can pretty well bet that it's an accurate response. it's called a mathematical equation. hell they predict winners in elections based off of smaller and less accurate samplings.

The bottom line is this: these young people are coming here for a better life, and are willing to risk a 1200-mile(est) journey full of hustlers, rapists, killers and just plain nasty conditions from start to finish to get here. Isn't that what has brought folks to these shores since,the 1640s? Isn't that why the French gave us a statue in the late 19th century which spoke glowingly of a great nation willing to give the poor, huddled masses a second chance? Isn't that the driver behind the millions who have come here and contributed to the very things that make this nation unique and great? What happened to that spirit?

YEP sure is. and they did it LEGALLY too. something you seem to be intentionally omitting

CUDA wrote:

callmeslick wrote:so they asked a batch of 270 out of, what, 50,000? I'm not ready to jump to conclusions, CUDA.....but, you seem to be.

don't understand how a statistical sampling survey works do you. when 95% of the people surveyed give you an answer you can pretty well bet that it's an accurate response. it's called a mathematical equation. hell they predict winners in elections based off of smaller and less accurate samplings.

I just said I wasn't ready to take such a small sample and jump to conclusions. I didn't say it had to be wrong. My point was WHY DOES IT MATTER?

The bottom line is this: these young people are coming here for a better life, and are willing to risk a 1200-mile(est) journey full of hustlers, rapists, killers and just plain nasty conditions from start to finish to get here. Isn't that what has brought folks to these shores since,the 1640s? Isn't that why the French gave us a statue in the late 19th century which spoke glowingly of a great nation willing to give the poor, huddled masses a second chance? Isn't that the driver behind the millions who have come here and contributed to the very things that make this nation unique and great? What happened to that spirit?

YEP sure is. and they did it LEGALLY too. something you seem to be intentionally omitting

see historical overview in response to Spidey.

callmeslick wrote:

CUDA wrote:

callmeslick wrote:so they asked a batch of 270 out of, what, 50,000? I'm not ready to jump to conclusions, CUDA.....but, you seem to be.

don't understand how a statistical sampling survey works do you. when 95% of the people surveyed give you an answer you can pretty well bet that it's an accurate response. it's called a mathematical equation. hell they predict winners in elections based off of smaller and less accurate samplings.

I just said I wasn't ready to take such a small sample and jump to conclusions. I didn't say it had to be wrong. My point was WHY DOES IT MATTER?

it matters because. AGAIN the administration is lying to the people, and their supporters are repeating that same lie. THATS WHY IT MATTERS

prior anecdotal evidence showed the mix to be 50:50. Likely in about 10 years, we'll be able to look back and know for sure. Speaking of repeating lies, how about the 'Obama Administration advertised in Central America for folks to come here'? That(proven lie) chestnut still floats around the interweb a lot. I'm saying on this survey, 'not so fast', and I still stand by my statement that they are coming here for a better life. As my precedents and yours no doubt did.

wow, thanks for the timeline, Spidey. Not a big wiki fan, but that was a damned good overview article.

a slightly larger sample(just over 400) interviewed by the UN earlier in the year. LESS THAN 3% so much as MENTIONED U.S. immigration laws.
http://www.nationaljournal.com/domestic ... y-20140616

a little more history:
http://billmoyers.com/2014/07/18/child- ... is-island/

At least they came in legally.