DescentBB

There was a big conversation just occuring in the Descent IRC channel on certain things you should be allowed to do, and other things you shouldn't be allowed to do. Specifically, spawn and type killing. The most agreed upon argument was that, if it's allowed in the game, than it's allowed. Or "It's Anarchy, get used to it". One way that I deal with the unpleasentness of being spawnkilled, or typekilled, is by going into observer mode while it's happening (as long as I can get it before I drop below 50 shields). I know at least one person who thinks this is a '★■◆● move' (WarAdvocate), but my question that I raise to all, is...
if the game allows it to happen, shouldn't it be a valid tactic to use, since anyone has the ability to do so equally?

Also... another extreme can happen with the 'observer mode tactic'. (this is not something that I feel is right) Since you only need 50 shields to enter it... if used correctley one could possibly never die by just going into observer before their shields drop too low.
This, to me, is not a fair way to play... but it is still allowed with the rules of the game. So my question is more refined:
If it IS allowed, what balance should there be? (only using it if you're being spawn/type killed, using it whenever your sheilds drop a little to get a quick shield replenishment?...)

I'm not completely descided on the whole issue, so please give me your feedback

Johnny M

its lame to go into observer mode at any point when you aren't actually trying to observe someone fly. if you're going to the bathroom or whatever its not lame, but do you really need to go to observer mode? its not like you don't get another life when you die anyway.

Since you only need 50 shields to enter it... if used correctley one could possibly never die by just going into observer before their shields drop too low.

Try that with a halfway-decent pilot. Especially one with fusion. It's really not a concern.

"exiting the game" is also allowed, and if you abuse observer mode, that will be my most likely response. "Verbally abusing you" is another possibility.

The game allows it to happen -- but just because it's allowed doesn't mean you should do it. For example, the game allows you to create a private game and play against your little sister and rack up amazing stats. And it's cool if you play your little sister on occasion because she likes the game and you go easy on her... but if you play your little sister for the sole purpose of going 100-1 and making the next rank, well, you're lame. The game also allows you to enter observer mode (or quit) to avoid being killed. If you do that once in a while (to avoid a typekill, or if your joystick breaks) that's fine -- but if you abuse it, you're lame. The game also allows you to host a game with your laggy lossy 56K winmodem and be basically unhittable, but if you do this, you're extremely lame.

The following are "legit" uses of observer mode:
1) you want to take a break (hand is tired, need a snack, etc.)
2) the teams are uneven and you want to even them up
3) you're going to type a lot (for example, if the server joins and wants some information) and can't find a semi-safe spot to type
4) you suspect someone is hax0ring, and you want to piggyback to see if they're flying into walls and such

The following are "abuses" of observer mode, and make you lame (they might be "valid tactics" but they're still lame):
1) avoiding being spawnkilled. You have 2 seconds of invuln, concussions, and blues -- if you can't avoid being spawnkilled by defending yourself, you deserve to die. If you stop to type and whine about the spawnkill, you also deserve to be typekilled.
2) padding your stats. If you play your little sister, and every time she gets you below 70 shields you pop in and out of observer mode in order to turn a 100-6 game into a 100-0 game... you're lame.
3) observing one team's defenses in a CTF game and relaying information to the other team (ex: clan X and clan Y are playing. You're on voice chat with clan Y, sitting in observer mode and telling them where clan X's players are) is extremely, extremely lame (in this case, I hope the server bans you.)

It's up to you to decide how lame you're willing to be.

Observer mode tricks are useless against skilled pilots with Fusion or any other weapon that does in excess of 50-100 damage per shot. Most of the time you would be dead before you could press the button.

Try to keep in mind, that which does not kill you only delays the inevitible, try not to waste too much time protecting your stats.

Learn to dodge.

I was going to say...just try going into observer before I smack yo ass...you sit still you die.

kufyit was one of the only pilots i faced that never fell for my "tree move." most everyone else would shoot all around me when i stopped cold. was very efective back in the 1v1 days of yore. can't pull it off in bi3 though

It's all a matter of following a code of ethics. It just so happens that very few who actually had any ethics even bother playing D3. You'll notice the ones who do because the majority don't have any.

kur, don't get too high on yourself, the 'tree move' as you call it wasn't exactly a 'kurupt original' and yes, it did have its merits.

no, i defiantely wasn't the pioneer, but i named it and used it more often than most. i also spearheaded the revival of the suicide to win tactic, as i'm sure you rmember well.

The tree move is good, but the perfect counter is to pocket dodge, and that works in indika3.

i can't pocket dodge that well in d3. the lag was always too strange. i tried all the time, but i always died from a shot that on my screen wasn't even close.

You have to dodge before the shot is close to you, because of the lag getting your position packets to the server. Wait too long and all you accomplish is sitting there like a idiot as the Fusion round paints your ship.

kurupt wrote:no, i defiantely wasn't the pioneer, but i named it and used it more often than most.

Hrm...well, you must have done it more against other players because I certainly don't remember you using it that often until we started playing Viral3 more often.

i also spearheaded the revival of the suicide to win tactic, as i'm sure you rmember well.

Thats not something to really brag about plus Jediluke did it much more frequently and before I noticed you trying to use it. Not to mention it only worked once on me and only because you were the first person to ever do it against me. It wasn't exactly like I knew how to counter it or whatever, I had no idea wtf was going on. I thought you got pissed off or disinterested in the game like you usually did by that point in the games we played.

on the contrary, i used the suicide tactic in every single match that i was behind in after 10 kills; once i started to decline and stopped being ahead most of the time i pretty much had to use it to get a win. it didn't always work, but by the time i retired i had people trying to ban the maneuver from the IDL. there were tons of UT mailing list bitchfests about that as well as other things. jediluke started using it after i used it on him to beat him in nysa. he always retired after a loss in the level, and true to form he unretired with a new tactic. at least it was new to me after that match when i noticed him using it on me for the first time later on. i know it was used before i did, but when i was on the top of the food chain it wasn't being used anymore, so i developed it as a wild card. alot of people hated me for that, but it was effective. kind of like warlord using that retarded lobber level with the shield regen as his home level because nobody else knew how to get to it as efficiently as he did. it was pretty lame, but pretty smart. merl started using the suicide after it was beaten to death in the private UT discussions, which you would have been more privvy to had you not quit so many times.

and your memory is a little foggy, i used it on you more than once, but it only worked once because you were smart enough to not let me beat you the same way twice. the same couldn't be said for others though. i remember feeling bad for guys like bubble who had no mental game and couldn't stop me from doing it to them over and over again.

the "tree move" as my friend who watched me play dubbed it, was only used on players who didn't have deadly aim. if you were the type to predict flight patterns and shoot around the ship (nitrate, daz, tobycat, cobra, warmaster for example) and not players who hid 95% of the match and relied on precision and stealth tactics (you, warlord, alfa/humle, fiend, d0ggY, for example) because it was pretty much worthless. thats why you never saw it, because it would be pretty dumb to use it on you with the style you played. stopping dead with vulcan on your ass is pretty assinine.

a lot of times, it is impossible to get away from a spawn killer, even with the 2 or 3 sec. invulnerability. Usually it's the fault of my crappy a$$ computer, but sometimes you just spawn in the wrong spot. (Like behind the dead end door in Stadium when someone's looking right at you, or inbetween two people shooting at each other in BI3) It actually happens a lot in the smaller levels like BI3, where you just can't avoid being spawn killed, or at least being spawn-90% damaged (which leaves you effectively dead, unless you're incredible - which I'm not).

I don't mind being killed, it's just a game, and every death is a learning experience, which I enjoy often times more than a kill. But in situations like mentioned above, there's nothing to learn and therefore no enjoyment, besides the odd cool explosion, so, though I am in 90% aggreement with the ability of the person to get away in a spawn killing situation, it's not always like that. I forget what I was getting at...

ah well,

Johnny M

I have countless times respawned and promptly killed the player that had killed me, taken all their weapons, and immedately respawnkilled them sometimes more then once.

If spawners manage to escape quickly I will allow them to. If someone respawns near me, I will not attempt to avoid killing them, they are a threat to my ship and I will attack, I expect the same from anyone else when I spawn.

[off-topic]Well put kur. It might have just been the fact that once I reinvented myself as a complete player and you and I had more open encounters it was something you didn't use quite as often when we had dogfights because maybe you expected me to bolt at any time. *shrug*

As for being privvy to the UT mailing list, I was only UT once and I think I only retired officially once. The mailing list only brought me headache, especially when the whole Warlord/Machine incident happend. I have a little bit more dignity then to sit idle while someone insults not only my intelligence but the integrity of my friends and I. That is something I don't easily forget nor forgive, which is one of the reasons I left Kali for the most part.

Leaving the IDL the way I did is something that I'll forever be proud of because I accomplished that which I had most desired, not once, but twice. Out of all the stupid reasons for leaving previous times, for once I left with a clear conscience in the end. The only regret that I have is that it came in a time in which the IDL was riddled with cliques, liars and cheaters flying under the radar. It would have been a much more enjoyable accomplishment had the ladder been what it once was, but it wasn't. The only reason I made UT in the first place was because the competition was stale from lack of activity.

The ladder was not going to change for the better or really change at all for that matter. Which was one of the reasons Manson along with Lothar & Drakona made the UDL. Even that ladder began to fall prey to the same problems the IDL had already endured and to new problems that a new system would bring.

Anyways, your mention of the mailing list seems to have let loose a flood of bad memories. As great as becoming UT for the first time was and earning top spot was it still seems hallow in comparison to some of the better days my memory of the IDL brings. UT wasn't what it was billed to be by my time. It seemed like it had forgotten everything it once stood for.

In retrospect, the LT continued to be the lifeblood of the IDL until the end. The UT just seemed to be where good players went to fade away when it was said and done with.

I'll probably get a lot of ★■◆● for this, but meh, it'll most likely be stuff I've heard once before.
[/off-topic]

yeah, i agree with you. because of all the cliques and bitterness it was a real struggle to make it to the upper tier by the time i got that good. alot of people burned out before they made it or shortly after because someone who disliked them would prevent the majority vote. its very frustrating when you are beating UT pilots but get 6 or 7 fors and just enough againsts to keep you at +3 or 4. Also people like Sin who made it because of a few of his friends lobbying for him at a time when the UT was very passive. I was pretty much in my prime when i made it, but i burned out shortly after. it wasn't a very good place to be on the inside of, but there were no good alternatives at the time.

back on topic though, if you go into observer mode to escape a spawn kill, you deserve to be ridiculed by your peers. its incredibly lame. i mean, you have level 1 lasers and concussion missles, plus 2 seconds where you cant be touched, if you cant defend yourself with that against the guys you are playing with, you are in over your head and have no excuse for being in that game. your not playing to get better, becuase people who are would never do that, so save everyone the hassle and just leave and find a game with lesser pilots.

"kufyit was one of the only pilots i faced that never fell for my "tree move." most everyone else would shoot all around me when i stopped cold. was very efective back in the 1v1 days of yore"

There's a good reason for that. Your tree move was popularized by me. Kufyit played the most matches against me (and had the most wins), and doesn't fall for my tree move anymore either

"The tree move is good, but the perfect counter is to pocket dodge, and that works in indika3."

"Tree move" is part of pocket dodging...actually its arguably the same thing. The point was to stop dead, unexpectedly. While playing people anticipate your path into the future, especially with lag. Pocket dodging in some ways involves constantly throwing tree moves...don't move if you don't need to. Especially useful against fusion.

People moved into the UT to fade away? Well, maybe by the time you got up there, because for awhile there was a lot of fierce competition. I think a lot of people lost interest after Realm, though.

OFF TOPIC:

Manson along with Lothar & Drakona made the UDL

Manson (design) and Drakona (programming) made the UDL. deimos did the webpage and advised Manson (the two of them had the ladder rules pretty much in place before Drakona was asked to do the programming -- during the *6 months* of development, the rules barely changed from what they originally intended), and LordVenom did graphics. I didn't make it (I'm not even listed on the staff page) -- I just occasionally advised, and some of the stuff I designed for the UF ladder carried over.

Here's the short list of what I actually did for UDL (overall, it might amount to 1-2% of the total work):
- some design for the original W/UF ladder (stats like "match experience", "kill experience", and "win factor" / "lose factor", as well as the idea of the blind trophy.)
EDIT: - tons of debugging of UF ladder ("hey uh, you should make it so you can't play yourself." "oh yeah...")
- gave Manson an e-mail address for Drakona (he heard she made the UF ladder)
- helped design a few algorithms (such as rank drop) to be efficient
- helped resolve some disagreements when the designers couldn't agree and wanted my input
- talked about it a lot in the forums after it was launched

I think it's the last thing that led to the misperception that I had a lot to do with the ladder. The accusations that it was "thrown together" (development was at least 6 months), "a rip-off of IDL" (blame Jediluke and TobyCat for asking for the UF ladder to be like IDL; this project was actually titled "not IDL" at first), "stolen code" (Esp made this accusation, which was goofy since at the time he was playing matches on the W ladder, which was based on the same code) were all false accusations, and since I knew better and I had a strong forum presence, I made sure to correct them. A lot of the UT guys couldn't believe they were so out-of-the-loop that they wouldn't have heard about a ladder coming, so they just assumed it was a hastily thrown-together IDL rip-off using stolen code. So I got involved a lot in defending it against accusations. I also got involved a lot in hyping UDL, because I thought it was a great ladder concept.

In summary: Manson and Drakona made UDL. I just made a lot of noise about it ;)

ON TOPIC:

It's unfortunate there are so many poorly designed starts in certain levels, such as the Stadium hallway end start. I can *maybe* see using observer mode to avoid a spawnkill if you spawn there, since it takes the door so long to open. I think, though, in a properly designed level where you have room to move when you spawn, there's no excuse for dropping into observer to avoid a spawnkill.

Birdseye wrote:"Tree move" is part of pocket dodging...actually its arguably the same thing. The point was to stop dead, unexpectedly. While playing people anticipate your path into the future, especially with lag. Pocket dodging in some ways involves constantly throwing tree moves...don't move if you don't need to. Especially useful against fusion.

Yes Master! It was from playing you in Indika3 anarchy matches that I learned these tactics, and many others. I tend to think of you as my teacher even if you werent actively contributing to the role, you were flying and I was paying attention.

Krom wrote:I tend to think of you as my teacher even if you werent actively contributing to the role, you were flying and I was paying attention.

Best way to learn this stuff, especially from a new player's perspective. I've run across some new guys who think its as simple as flying and shooting and flying some more. To be as good as most of you, it's a bit more involved. Too bad I like dying enough not to care.

I think blindly flying against pilots better then yourself does little to help, like I said, I was paying attention. It is not that they defeat you, it is how they defeat you that matters.

That's what I meant by more involved.

Birdseye wrote:People moved into the UT to fade away? Well, maybe by the time you got up there, because for awhile there was a lot of fierce competition. I think a lot of people lost interest after Realm, though.

Maybe, I think some of the problems with the IDL could be traced either back to that or the Skunk incident but the ladder still moved on from those. Atleast in the months prior to making UT there was an increased amount of activity. Warlord and Jedi were playing again, Toby even, Nit, Mark, Dj, Merl, Chip, kur. Then I made UT and I was playing Merl, Nit, Dj and Mark all the time because they were really the only ones you could find on Kali. Chip had retired by that time again.

Warlord went on his multiple identities hiatus. Jedi was busy with a supposed move to the middle east with his fiance. Also the regulate for Destiny and LoNi started becoming a topic and I wanted absolutely no part in that.

In regards to Lothar's post, I never said anything about the UDL being thrown together and certainly nothing about it being a rip-off of the IDL. I knew that the UDL was based on the same code used for the UF and |W| ladders and it wasn't that big of a deal to me. It didn't bother me that the |W| ladder was made using UF's format. A Ladder is a ladder to me. If there was a standard to "Rip-off" it would have been IDL's because it was that good but those involved with UDL's development (There hows that ) did a great job of making it their own. Playing there was very enjoyable the first few months until Jedi and Stan became content to rank sit and play atleast the one time before they'd be dropped so they wouldn't be dropped. Then the Warlord/Machine incident over there as well and the fued between Jedi and War. Anyways, atleast in the beginning there was a huge body of competition and it was very full of activity. I'll remember it for that.

Esp's accusations were off-base, I'll agree with that, which is why I didn't defend him on atleast that point since I was there when Drakona was developing the ladder for us. Putting Deimos in charge of Forum affairs was a mistake. He deleted Esp's forum account and removed him from the ladder after some comment Esp made about "simma down noa" (SNL Skit) but before removing his forum account he posted several things as Esp trying to make him look bad.

Of course Deimos will deny it but having first hand experience with Deimos's more sinister side (i.e. he stole my nickname on Kali once) it doesn't surprise me at all and I'm glad Manson revoked his forum duties or he stepped down, whatever ended up happening.

ON-TOPIC: Lothar's point about the spawning points is very accurate. I've noticed that most 'popular' D3 levels have absolutely no thought put into where the starting points are going to be and what could potentially happen in cluttered games. It just really isn't that big of a deal when it comes down to it though. Atleast, not in the levels I've played in D3.

I get spawnkilled in D3 less then I did in D1/D2, so I don't see what the big deal is. My gripe with D3 isn't so much the ethics, but the weird lag. I thought mysterious insta-deaths were a thing of the past that went out with dial-up connections It's annoying getting killed by stuff you've already dodged or used a wall to counter and you still die with a ping of 50-80ms to the servers.

OFF TOPIC:

Tyr, the point of my post was just to say that I don't really belong on the list of names for people who made UDL. You're right, though, deimos didn't handle the forum very well, and rank-sitting did become a problem. Maybe we should've made a graduated rank-drop formula of some sort -- say, you have to defend within the first 14 days, and then once every 7 days after that. I didn't expect it to be as much a problem as it was...

ON TOPIC:

D3 spawn points are sometimes awful, which is why, when I finally figure out D3edit, I'm going to port Zora to D3 and make sure the spawn points are sensible.

D1 ugh is the only level I can think of that had stupid spawn points and was still played. Most D1 level designers figured out how to distribute spawn points properly.

the term we used was not rip-off. it was spin-off.

The term *most* people used was spin-off, but there were a few who said it was a "rip-off" (one or two even suggested we could be sued.) I thought that was funny, since our whole point of development was to create something different and better.

Back off my level Lothar! Ugh is a perfect level in every way!