DescentBB

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:05 am**

yes yes we all know the stupid amount of Ritlin prescribed to children nowdays, it's been mentioned whenever we talk about ADD here in E&C.

so here's something NEW to talk about regarding ADD

(this was linked to me in discussions in a personality profiling livejournal community, thus the mentions of MBTI profiles at the end of the article)

http://borntoexplore.org/overexcite.htm

"Overexcitabilities" Used to Predict Giftedness

Over the past few decades researchers have been trying to map out the correlation between "overexcitabilities" and giftedness. It all started in the sixties when Dabrowski proposed his Theory of Positive Disintegration, which stated that people born with overexcitabilities had a higher level of "development potential" than others. After decades of research, it appears that overexcitabilities can actually be used to predict which kids might be gifted. Of course, the very same overexcitabilities are being used by others as evidence of a brain defect.

...article continues...

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:07 am**

I once though I had ADD. Sort of proved to myself that I hadn't though.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:32 am**

I thought I had ADD once as well, turned out I was suffering from CRAP instead.
Curriculum Realatively Anti Productive

So I just used the school to study what I wanted to instead of following their lame assed plan. Didn't do much for my grades but it was more interesting!

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:34 am**

so what did you think about the article's comments on that subject Will ?

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:39 am**

It just reaffirmed my position that Ritalin is really for the peace of mind of lazy parents not for the handicapped mind of children.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:43 pm**

Man these drug companies, Doctors, Psychiatrists, etc. should all be held criminially liable for mis-diagnosis, and the subsequent HARMFUL drugging of our children.

They suck AND blow.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 3:57 pm**

Will Robinson wrote:It just reaffirmed my position that Ritalin is really for the peace of mind of lazy parents not for the handicapped mind of children.

Word.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:48 pm**

I was on the stuff. then i heard the shrink that put me on that stuff died.

karma's pretty nasty.

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:30 pm**

Canuck wrote:should all be held criminially liable for mis-diagnosis

I agree entirely. Mis-diagnosis killed my mother. I'm dead serious. She was having severe breathing problems, and they continually said "go home, its just stress" (which she had minimal stress, not even countable).
Eventually we learned she had cancer because she acctually FORCED the doctors no get a scan, and it turns out she had 2 months left.
Damn doctors think they know it all.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:08 pm**

Arbitar wrote:Damn doctors think they know it all.

My mother is a doctor. Watch the generalizations buddy.

And may I ask what the extent of your medical knowledge is? 9th Grade Biology?

Believe me, I've been in contact with my share of ass-hole doctors, but I also know that most can only make do with what they have. My uncle's cousin was recently diagnosed with cancer after being misdiagnosed for a long time (about 2 years), and is now in a hospice. Problem is that she was a hypochondriac and the doctors couldn't tell if her complaints were in her head or based in fact. You can't send someone in for treatment for no reason, because possible side effects could result -- not to mention the insurance companies don't want to pay for it.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:05 pm**

I would agree that in todays world medicating children that don't need it is turning into a problem.
Teachers and parents alike can't seem to deal with kids wanting to be kids.
But what half you people don't realize is that ADD is infact real. My Daughter is diagnosed with ADD.
Its not her hyperness, nor my lack or parenting skills/patients that makes us medicate her.
Its her lack of concentration in school in which hurts her abiltiy to learn.
And I for one want my daughter to get the best education she possibly can.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:47 pm**

I'm sorry, but I find ADD an easy way to excuse your failures. I'm going to look at nobody, but it's not because you have ADD that you fail. ADD might be a factor, but hey, if you know you can concentrate less than other children, you will have to work more and harder. If you know your child can concentrate less than other children, make sure you make him spend more time on his schoolwork. Though luck.

Similarly, it's not because someone is dyslexic that it excuses him from learning to read or write properly. He just has to put more effort into learning.

There is a difference between this and a handicap. A handicap is a physical or mental inability. ADD or dyslexia is not an inability, it makes people slow learners. Someone with ADD has just the same potential as someone without, but will need a little more willpower to achieve it than others.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:08 pm**

Until you have ADD, or someone you know has it, you cannot fathom the impediment it truly is. It's easy to judge others harshly for *drugging their kids* when you are clueless to the frustrating barrier it poses to concentration and memory.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:18 pm**

Bash: ADD is bulls**t. Don't try to tell us that because I was 'diagnosed' with ADD. So do us all a favor and STFU.

"let's medicate the kiddies because they don't sit still for hours on end and don't have the attention of an adult" friggin ingrates.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:05 pm**

Ferno, don't be so one-sided.

A lot of people are misdiagnosed, and told they have ADD when they don't. Such is your case, and it is a clear error. But the opposite error is *also* an error -- failing to tell a kid who really *does* have ADD or ADHD about it is a mistake. Failing to do something to help that kid is a problem.

It's like... 99% of kids are "normal" when it comes to going to the bathroom, and some kids are diagnosed as having problems when really they're just lazy and don't get up to go. But if you're that one kid who just has to pee every 20 minutes, it'd be nice to be able to get some sort of medication for it -- "just hold it" (as would be analagous to Tricord's "try harder") isn't going to help all that much.

Misdiagnosis is a problem, but it doesn't make the underlying disease a myth.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:19 pm**

No one is claiming the underlying disease is a myth. But when my kindergarten teacher tried to convince every parent that their kids needed psychological drugs, I have a hard time buying into the idea that it wasn't meant to cover her own fallacies as an incompetent teacher.

When did we get a "cure" for this stuff anyway? The 1980s? How ever did these millions of children cope with this disease prior to then? How did it become so suddenly epidemic as the drug manufacturers want us to believe?

While I think some people truly do have ADD and similar impediments, I believe there is a high number of citizens in the population who are incorrectly diagnosed and get hooked on these mind-altering drugs early in their lives. Whatever happened to parents nurturing their kids and teaching them how to focus and concentrate? Another case of people thinking the "magic pill" will solve everything for them so they can go about their lives not having to worry about Junior.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:27 pm**

/me lets go right on the floor.

Also if the kid has to go to the bathroom every 20 minutes, stop giving him apple juice all the time.

how can I be neutral when all i've been told is that i'll never succeed because some psycologist wanted something to do?

I don't think you get it Lothar. Symptoms of ADD are too similar to what a normal kid behaves like. Figedting, lack of concentration, distractability. these are normal for a kid aged 5-10. before it was called 'ants in their pants' now it's called ADD. that leads me to believe it's complete bunk.

Show me one kid that can sit in a bench-like desk for hours on end and can look forward for the same amount of time and i'll show you a kid that's one step away from a zombie.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:24 pm**

I thought I had ADD once too, went to a doctor to test it out, as I found out, I'm just lazy.

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:57 pm**

Ferno wrote:Symptoms of ADD are too similar to what a normal kid boy behaves like. Figedting, lack of concentration, distractability.

seriously, how many girls do you know of with ADD?

Posted: **Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:49 pm**

i don't.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:35 am**

the article is suggesting that ADD kids SHOULD be handled not by medicating them, but by accepting that they are not suited for the traditional "sit behind the desk" boring school lessons.

in otherwords, if they are doing badly at school and you can't find a school that they would do well in, then they should be homeschooled instead.

there is nothing WRONG with the child, in fact this article is suggesting the opposite, that "the child is actually gifted".

but unfortunately the child's particular "gift" is not compatable with the school system. the child is playing up in school because he is not being stimulated in the right ways.

For those of you familiar with the MBTI (Myers-Briggs) temperament system, it appears to be the divergent thinking SPs, NTPs and NFPs who are most often tagged ADD. There seems to be a synergetic combination of having overexcitabilities and a divergent-thinking temperament (this is my own personal theory). A convergent thinking SJ ("Traditionalist") with overexcitabilities will be inspired by pleasing the teacher, learning by rote memorization, being organized and getting things done. So this type of child is likely to be labeled gifted rather than ADD. On the other hand, a divergent thinking SP ("Artisan") with overexcitabilities is inspired by exploration, hands-on activities, and freedom of action. Forget passive learning and obedience! Obviously this child will have a hard time in a traditional school setting. And this child is therefore far more likely to be labeled ADD than the previously described SJ child, even though the child may be every bit as intelligent.

the article is suggesting that ADD kids are not "troublesome". there is nothing wrong with them, they are actuallly GIFTED, and we are medicating them because we are either too set in our views that "troublemaker = ADD" or too lazy and selfish to give the child the kindof stimulating learning environment that he really NEEDS to be able to thrive.

children are supposed to be nurtured. they arn't pets or fashion statements that you only have to deal with when you are not at work. they are important.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:46 am**

that makes sense to me Roid.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:51 am**

this article furthers the premice that:

so we don't have an epidemic of sick (ADD) kids here.
but we have a society who's treatment and expectations from children is sick.

it seems that some kids don't react well to our societys' mantra of "put the children in daycare school and so you can goto work in peace".

i wish people would place the blame where it belongs, instead of on the kids.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm**

On the other hand, a divergent thinking SP ("Artisan") with overexcitabilities is inspired by exploration, hands-on activities, and freedom of action. Forget passive learning and obedience! Obviously this child will have a hard time in a traditional school setting. And this child is therefore far more likely to be labeled ADD than the previously described SJ child

I'm far into the SP range. Out of 180 school days, I think I bothered to show up for about 50 of them. Maybe 20 were on time. I had no incentive. Yet I still passed all my classes because my teachers basically dropped the requirement of homework(I flat-out told them I wouldn't do it), but I passed all my tests because I read the entire course book, usually more than once, instead of only the 10-15 chapters that the rest...might...have fumbled through during the school year. I did drugs the whole time too! (well, only in high school, and nothing major) Take that, Student Counselor!

I'm so glad my school either didn't know what ADD was, or my dad was smart enough to refuse the 'treatment'.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:23 pm**

Testiculese wrote:
On the other hand, a divergent thinking SP ("Artisan") with overexcitabilities is inspired by exploration, hands-on activities, and freedom of action. Forget passive learning and obedience! Obviously this child will have a hard time in a traditional school setting. And this child is therefore far more likely to be labeled ADD than the previously described SJ child
I'm far into the SP range. Out of 180 school days, I think I bothered to show up for about 50 of them. Maybe 20 were on time. I had no incentive. Yet I still passed all my classes because my teachers basically dropped the requirement of homework(I flat-out told them I wouldn't do it), but I passed all my tests because I read the entire course book, usually more than once, instead of only the 10-15 chapters that the rest...might...have fumbled through during the school year. I did drugs the whole time too! (well, only in high school, and nothing major) Take that, Student Counselor!

I'm so glad my school either didn't know what ADD was, or my dad was smart enough to refuse the 'treatment'.

No offence but I'm sure the pot had more to do with you not showing an interest in school rather than the chances you had ADD.

And that sure doesn't say much for the school you attended either.

Posted: **Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:53 pm**

Nope, I had an interest in the subject matter, just not actually being at school. Like I said, I read all the material, and passed all my tests. The school is an average middle-class Pennsylvania suburbs type.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:00 am**

I have no medical or biology or psychology background. But it seems that a good deal of people, whether it be doctors or parents, tend to say drugs are the answer. There are other ways to approach the problem. These ways should be entertained first; then after that you can bring in the pharmacist to do his or her thing.

I also have a great deal of disrespect for anybody who uses ADD as an excuse for anything. Even if the most extreme ADD patient stops trying to come up with excuses, he/she will be at least a little better.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:32 am**

yea I find that quite funny that ADD only exists in America and Canada..

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:37 am**

and australia.

i'd feel safe in saying that it's being diagnosed in the entire 1st world.

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:45 am**

Same here...

Some pompous kids think it's fashionable. I know some 15-year old girls who pretend to be anorexic because they think it's fashionable. That's a way to start it for real, too.

Kids need common sense and consequent thinking to grow up. It's not much, but it appears to be very hard for parents to accomplish.

Like it is with any disorder (an addiction, or dyslexia, or ADD or whatever), the person who suffers from it is ultimately the only person who can do something about it. To use a clichÃ©: "we can only show you the door, you're the one who has to walk through it".

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:52 am**

Tricord wrote: Like it is with any disorder (an addiction, or dyslexia, or ADD or whatever), the person who suffers from it is ultimately the only person who can do something about it. To use a clichÃ©: "we can only show you the door, you're the one who has to walk through it".

Of course..... but you have no idea how damn hard that actually is...

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:22 am**

Nope, I don't. I didn't attempt to quantify the required effort either. I just made a simple, analytical approach, without any pedagogic care whatsoever

Posted: **Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:11 pm**

I have wondered sometimes if I would be diagnosed with ADD, though I don't think I have it, I do tend to have a short attention span. I think there are 2 mains reasons why ADD is misdiagnosed:

1) I think modern entertainment has made children lazy with their attention. Things are designed to grab attention now, when before from a young age kids had to choose to direct their attention to one thing or another.
2) Different learning styles aren't all equally compatible with different teaching styles. People forget this far too often

I think personalized tuitoring should be tried before going to a doctor- personal tuitoring does wonders for learning. (especially if the tuitor cares enough to figure out how the student learns best)

Posted: **Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:33 am**

snoopy, if you have a short attention span, you're ADD.

now give me my two grand for my professional psycological examination.

Posted: **Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:15 pm**

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Living/U ... 607-1.html

"He was losing weight, wasn't sleeping, wasn't eating," Taylor told ABC News affiliate KOAT-TV in New Mexico. "[He] just wasn't Daniel."

So Taylor took Daniel off Ritalin, against his doctor's wishes. And though Taylor noticed Daniel was sleeping better and his appetite had returned, his teachers complained about the return of his disruptive behavior. Daniel seemed unable to sit still and was inattentive. His teachers ultimately learned that he was no longer taking Ritalin.

School officials reported Daniel's parents to New Mexico's Department of Children, Youth and Families. Then a detective and social worker made a home visit.

"The detective told me if I did not medicate my son, I would be arrested for child abuse and neglect," Taylor said.

A spokesman for New Mexico's Department of Children, Youth and Families told KOAT-TV that they could not comment on the case because of state confidentiality laws. John Francis, a detective for the Rio Rancho Department of Public Safety, said that Taylor was not threatened but told KOAT-TV that parents could be charged in situations like his.

Wow...

Posted: **Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:16 pm**

That is insane.

Though I'm sure my parents would like it if Ritalin lowered my appetite, but that's not the case

.

Posted: **Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:52 am**

Lothar.. that story makes my blood boil.

If i was that kid's parent i'd pack up and move immediately. screw that BS.

DescentBB

ADD used to predict Gifted children.

ADD used to predict Gifted children.