DescentBB

What do you think if some very skilled player like say, Spooty was convinced to do a quite specific, handicapped run of D2: Counterstrike? The idea being: only D1 armament is allowed.

This could allow us to compare directly the difficulty curves between the two games - D2 is obviously much easier with all the crazy weaponry available to you. But what if you could use only Smarts and Megas, but no Guided or Earthshakers? No Gauss, no Helix.

Of course we know many of the D1 weapons were nerfed in D2, most notably Fusion. But we could provide a DXA file with D1,5.HAM inside to the player, which would un-nerf all D1 weaponry. Fusion and Megas in D2 are available as early as level 4 and then ubiquitous afterwards, so the player would probably have more than enough for their needs. The final boss would obviously be a problem, but Smart Missiles or simply flying behind him while cloaked should do the trick anyway. The only thing needed would be D2X-XL's function which allows the use of regular Lasers even when Super Lasers have been picked up, as the vainlla game or Rebirth don't allow that.

What do you think about this, would you be interested in watching a LP like this?

It depends on the difficulty setting... On insane difficulty I needed to score 6 direct hits with Earthshakers into the final boss' back to destroy it. This means damage from the main blast and all separation blobs once... Six times... I'm not sure if unloading your entire load of smarts and megas directly on its back can finish it on insane...

It's a different story on lower difficulty. But I always play on insane difficulty.

Xfing wrote:But we could provide a DXA file with D1,5.HAM inside to the player, which would un-nerf all D1 weaponry..... The only thing needed would be D2X-XL's function which allows the use of regular Lasers even when Super Lasers have been picked up, as the vainlla game or Rebirth don't allow that.

"Un-nerf the D1 weapons" is a setting in Retro (which also sets super lasers to use the D1 laser level 4 values). I don't know if it's available in single player, but it certainly could be made into a SP switch.

It might also be possible to replace the D2 weapons with their D1 equivalents, so that at least you'd have the same amount of ammo (though I think I might make mercs into homers rather than smarts.)

This was exactly the challenge I had in mind for Counterstrike. But I'm currently not planning on doing that run this year, probably next year. However, if someone beats me to the punch of that challenge, I'll have to think up another one.

If you're gonna do D2 with D1 weaponry, should probably leave the D1 arsenal nerfed. Otherwise it's not that big of a difference in firepower.

Also the difference in D1 Q4 vs D2 Q6 is 52 vs 50 iirc. Plasma still does the same. The challenge is in the fact that lasers are now your biggest damage dealer, no gauss means you can't bullseye stuff like spawns as easily, and no omega cannon means those little pests are even more of a nuisance at short range.

And as mentioned, the final boss is going to be one hell of a fight if you are limited to smarts and cloaked shots. I'm pretty sure fusion literally bounces right off, so you can't shoot that through him.

Avder wrote:If you're gonna do D2 with D1 weaponry, should probably leave the D1 arsenal nerfed. Otherwise it's not that big of a difference in firepower.

Also the difference in D1 Q4 vs D2 Q6 is 52 vs 50 iirc. Plasma still does the same. The challenge is in the fact that lasers are now your biggest damage dealer, no gauss means you can't bullseye stuff like spawns as easily, and no omega cannon means those little pests are even more of a nuisance at short range.

And as mentioned, the final boss is going to be one hell of a fight if you are limited to smarts and cloaked shots. I'm pretty sure fusion literally bounces right off, so you can't shoot that through him.

Actually fusion does go through him and I think it does cause the damage, but he's got a defense mechanism to discourage that - when fired upon with Fusion, he fires back like 15 or so blobs. And it's quite founded IMO, as I'm sure many a pilot thought they could cheat the requirement of getting him from behind by using Fusion.

Not that Fusion does any real damage in D2 though, lol

Did the Parallax guys ever say whether that was intended or just an oversight? I could kind of see it going either way.

Regardless if it was intended, if Fusion is a legit way to get at his back at all times, I just might consider the challenge since it would make it easier once I inevitably run out of smart missiles.

RetroChallengeGamer wrote:Regardless if it was intended, if Fusion is a legit way to get at his back at all times, I just might consider the challenge since it would make it easier once I inevitably run out of smart missiles.

You could try and see if shooting him with Fusion for an extended period of time does kill him in the end. Just for the hell of it, you could even be invulnerable while doing this. I'm curious

As far as I know the final boss is completely immune to energy weapons.

Calmarius wrote:As far as I know the final boss is completely immune to energy weapons.

Not when they're fired into his back. I remember finishing him off with Helix, as it's possible to stay orientated towards his back with some skillful flying due to his manageable turning rate.

Calmarius wrote:As far as I know the final boss is completely immune to energy weapons.

Boss immunities are a pain in the ass at some points in D2.

The level 20 boss is immune to impact weapons I believe. The only thing guass and missiles do, if I recall, is make him spawn in cloaked lifters or something.

Smart missiles and smart mines work tho, thanks to their blobs being energy based.

I remember once, running out of earthshakers, finishing the final boss off with smart missiles, whose blobs are energy-based. (This was on Descent Maximum, where they don't give you nearly the same number of earthshakers across the campaign.)

Jeff250 wrote:I remember once, running out of earthshakers, finishing the final boss off with smart missiles, whose blobs are energy-based. (This was on Descent Maximum, where they don't give you nearly the same number of earthshakers across the campaign.)

Same. That in addition to simply shooting him in the back with energy weapons. He is vulnerable to any kind of weapon, only in the back

Boss AI: (Immunities)

Zeta Aquilae: None
Quartzon: None
Brimspark: Energy
Limefrost Spiral: Energy
Baloris Prime: Matter
Tycho Brahe: Weak Spot On Back

You cannot use a given weapon type on a boss with that weapon type listed.

Hm, I never actually knew the level 12 boss had an immunity to energy.

Yep.
I bet with armor like that he doesn't get many mosquito bites. /me is insanely jealous.
And I didn't know the final boss was immune to the weak spot on his back. I thought that was a vulnerability.

We'll be shuffling and mixing up those vulnerabilities in D1,5 to catch players off-guard. We'll justify it by the "alien virus learning, adapting and trying new configurations" or some schmuck like that

I'm ok doing that with bosses, I don't like modifying the standard bots. Which you're not doing except for restoring the sounds, so that's fine. You know some of the bosses were meant to have their own death sounds in the game's files?
Will make it interesting to play the mission set with the hxms removed after I'm done it the first time. A lot of missions with custom bots I sometimes play like that.

Alter-Fox wrote:I'm ok doing that with bosses, I don't like modifying the standard bots. Which you're not doing except for restoring the sounds, so that's fine. You know some of the bosses were meant to have their own death sounds in the game's files?
Will make it interesting to play the mission set with the hxms removed after I'm done it the first time. A lot of missions with custom bots I sometimes play like that.

Well removing the HXMs will change nothing at all except the restored sounds for the D1 robots, so there's not much point in doing that... I also like when stuff's as close as possible to vanilla, the bosses being the one exception, but I feel it's justified.

Also, everything's based on a single HAM file to begin with (another one to account for the Vertigo bosses), not on HXMs. I think it'll be converted into a DXA addon, I heard it works.

Aah, so it'll need a mods folder...
And playing it without the HAM for some replay value would be even easier.

If you need help with new boss immunites, I'm available...

LightWolf wrote:If you need help with new boss immunites, I'm available...

Those have already been scripted and are ready to go. Not sure what kind of help you were offering tbh

Jeff250 wrote:I remember once, running out of earthshakers, finishing the final boss off with smart missiles, whose blobs are energy-based. (This was on Descent Maximum, where they don't give you nearly the same number of earthshakers across the campaign.)

Indeed I was wrong.

I tried to use energy weapons against the final boss on insane difficulty while the invulnerability cheat was on. On that skill level the boss has a so high HP, that 100 energy isn't enough to kill it, I thought he is immune to energy.

Yep I've done him in with omega cannon when my shakers ran out.
If you're cloaked it works surprisingly well even on the higher difficulties.

Phoenix cannon's trickier but I've made it work too.