DescentBB

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... id=2275444

The Journal of the American Medical Association did a study of 95,000 children finds no link between MMR vaccines and autism, even within high-risk populations. The high-risk population they used was children who had older siblings with autism spectrum disorders.

Unfortunately, there is no way to explain this to an anti-vaxxer.

Isaac wrote:Unfortunately, there is no way to explain this to an anti-vaxxer.

Well obviously you are:

A) science illiterate and blind to the overwhelming evidence against vaccines.
B) ignorant of the corporate/government interests that want to control the population with this pro-vaccine propaganda.
C) a paid big-pharma shill.
D) all of the above.

I wonder what kind of evidence these people would accept?

vision wrote:I wonder what kind of evidence these people would accept?

The death of their own children from a preventable disease, and even that is iffy.

Krom gets it right. Nothing will convince those loons.

vision wrote:

Isaac wrote:Unfortunately, there is no way to explain this to an anti-vaxxer.

Well obviously you are:

A) science illiterate and blind to the overwhelming evidence against vaccines.
B) ignorant of the corporate/government interests that want to control the population with this pro-vaccine propaganda.
C) a paid big-pharma shill.
D) all of the above.

I wonder what kind of evidence these people would accept?

Looks like Issac is right.

I really want to see this "overwhelming evidence against vaccines".

Ferno wrote:I really want to see this "overwhelming evidence against vaccines".

Yeah me too. A couple months ago a co-worker told me he didn't vaccinate his daughter because vaccines cause autism. He said "I've looked at the science, I know I'm right. You need to do some research."

I couldn't do anything but shake my head in astonishment.

My old boss posed this nonsense on FB the other day. Every time I read one of these "articles" I get caught in a circle-jerk with links to a bunch of websites that reference each other with either no data, or heavily cherry-picked to fit a narrative. All this from a guy with a masters in science and engineering who claims to be a critical thinker.

I just don't understand...

vision wrote:....All this from a guy with a masters in science and engineering who claims to be a critical thinker.

I just don't understand...

Think about it. Fear.

A lot of the arguments I'm seeing from the anti-vaxxers boil down to "people get sick because they don't practice good hygiene" and "vaccinations are poison, they make you sick by putting the thing you're trying to avoid into your system!", and yet (often in the same breath) they go on to say "getting sick from normal exposure to disease builds up your immune system better than vaccination does". Well? Which is it, anti-vaxxers?

I really can't voice the full extent of my thoughts and feelings on this matter here because they're NHB material. Suffice it to say, these people are absolute morons and fully deserve the consequences of their actions. I just wish they wouldn't expose others to those consequences in the process.

I hear entirely too much about 'putting carcinogens into children' and 'triggers for many diseases' and other absolute lies. No misunderstandings here, to my mind, mostly complete BS from idiots.

At the risk of sounding rhetorical, you were joking in that first reply vision?

Ferno wrote:At the risk of sounding rhetorical, you were joking in that first reply vision?

4:20 hanging over?

Ferno wrote:At the risk of sounding rhetorical, you were joking in that first reply vision?

Yeah I was being sarcastic. I admit I did a bad job of relaying that. Should have ramped up the crazy a little bit.

I got a flu vaccine a few months ago. I told this to a girlfriend of mine over drinks and her jaw dearly dropped to the floor in disbelief. She was shocked I would put dangerous "chemicals" in my body voluntarily. California is pretty fucked up. So many people here don't understand that vaccines are less about science and more about risk assessment.

Are flu vaccines included in the anti-vax kerfluffle? I think I've only done it once in my lifetime. Does that make me a terrible human?

LOL vander.

see, you're the kind of crazy that makes this place good.

She was shocked I would put dangerous "chemicals" in my body voluntarily.

she probably saw this.


grabbed from rationalwiki. go check it out. it's good stuff.

I'm perfectly fine with people refusing to get vaccinated...so long as they then spend the rest of their earthly lives walking around in giant hermetically-sealed plastic bubbles. That way the rest of us can roll them down hills and such.

like watching someone go down in a zorb.

Will Robinson wrote:

vision wrote:....All this from a guy with a masters in science and engineering who claims to be a critical thinker.

I just don't understand...

Think about it. Fear.

Sometimes that fear is warranted. Although today, most vaccines are safe and necessary in a global world, where infected people from third world countries can now spread diseases we brought under control here years ago. But back in the early days of vaccine development, it was the wild west of science and they could do no wrong. We were all unwitting beta testers, and some may be paying the price even today.

http://www.sv40foundation.org/CPV-link.html

http://sv40foundation.org/

http://www.naturalnews.com/041345_CDC_p ... _SV40.html

A NaturalNews link, tc? What happened to your scientific standards? (NaturalNews is just about the quackiest of them all.)

tunnelcat wrote:We were all unwitting beta testers, and some may be paying the price even today.l

No we weren't, and no they're not.

Foil wrote:A NaturalNews link, tc? What happened to your scientific standards? (NaturalNews is just about the quackiest of them all.)

Better Foil? In fact, I'm of the age that I could have been infected with SV40 back when every child was being vaccinated against Polio. It's the right time period for me. Now that I've personally been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and chronic muscle fatigue, who knows?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SV40

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16288015

To be fair, there has been no proven evidence that SV40 causes cancer.....yet. Look how long it took researchers to figure out that HPV caused cervical cancer?

http://vec.chop.edu/service/vaccine-edu ... /sv40.html

And Ferno, scientists are not perfect, they're human. They DO sometimes make mistakes, and a few very bad mistakes. If you think they also have impeccable ethics, just look to our own past. Even Jonas Salk put his own ethics aside in several cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical ... ted_States

I just want to know why we don’t make clever titles for all of the other people who make dumb decisions that affect other people.

Well, we try, Spidey, but that's a lot of clever titles to come up with, and we're busy people with non-dumb decisions to make.

tunnelcat wrote:Better Foil? In fact, I'm of the age that I could have been infected with SV40 back when every child was being vaccinated against Polio. It's the right time period for me. Now that I've personally been diagnosed with fibromyalgia and chronic muscle fatigue, who knows?

Nope. Correlation is not causation.

And Ferno, scientists are not perfect, they're human. They DO sometimes make mistakes, and a few very bad mistakes. If you think they also have impeccable ethics, just look to our own past. Even Jonas Salk put his own ethics aside in several cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical ... ted_States

Again, correlation is not causation. Most scientists have built themselves a reputation that they would not put at risk, and they do that by submitting papers that get reviewed by their peers. Those who are discovered falsifying their findings are stripped of their credentials and blackballed out of the community. Such is the case of Dr. Wakefield and his fraudulent study.

TC, you really are barking up the wrong tree. Vaccines, as with any bioactive compound, are going to have an incidence of side effects, and a very small pool of truly adverse effects. It can be seen with virtually anything from prescription drugs to OTC meds, to vaccines. But, to suggest, for even a second, that vaccines on the whole are not OVERWHELMINGLY beneficial for humankind is ludicrous. There is ZERO proof of large scale harm, very little of even statistically significant levels of detrimental side effects. To reject the notion that eradication of diseases en masse via vaccine is beneficial strikes me as both stupid and dangerous to disseminate.

Hey guys, I'm not against vaccinations. They've done far more good than bad for preventing disease and death and I gotten my fair share of them without hesitation when needed. However, there is nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism. I'm just being contrarian here and pointing out that even scientists have egos or can make mistakes and that no rational person should do something blindly without forethought.

tunnelcat wrote:I'm just being contrarian here

yes. yes you are.

Somebody has to be or there would be no discussion.

tunnelcat wrote:Somebody has to be or there would be no discussion.

I get it. Really.

My ex-girlfriend and I would argue about vaccines. She never vaccinated her son and was against vaccinations. While she was eventually able to accept that vaccines don't cause autism, she still equated vaccines with "chemicals." Her argument was that she didn't trust Big Pharma and the Gubmn't (which is perfectly understandable and I don't either), and she wanted a "better product" available. By this I think she meant some sort of vaccine that sounds "organic" or "natural."

I also understand this.

Some people don't easily comprehend that everything in biology is "chemicals," their interactions, and what it means for something to be toxic. I totally sympathized with her concerns, but also said you can't protest by not vaccinating. This isn't like the Free Market where you can protest with your dollar.

However, I had no way to alleviate her concerns, and that is where to real problem is.

If you don't trust authority because they have abused their power, what is left to do? Big Pharma and the FDA not only need better PR, but they actually need to behave better too. Until they can, there is no way out of this vaccine mess. Imposing stricter laws on citizens without comparable regulations on pharmaceutical companies and improved FDA oversight will only cause more grief. The people need to see action.

Spidey wrote:I just want to know why we don’t make clever titles for all of the other people who make dumb decisions that affect other people.

They prefer to be called "congressman" and "congresswoman" and for some reason we all went along with it.

Will Robinson wrote:

Spidey wrote:I just want to know why we don’t make clever titles for all of the other people who make dumb decisions that affect other people.

They prefer to be called "congressman" and "congresswoman" and for some reason we all went along with it.

not an empty quote

vision wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:Somebody has to be or there would be no discussion.

I get it. Really.

My ex-girlfriend and I would argue about vaccines. She never vaccinated her son and was against vaccinations. While she was eventually able to accept that vaccines don't cause autism, she still equated vaccines with "chemicals." Her argument was that she didn't trust Big Pharma and the Gubmn't (which is perfectly understandable and I don't either), and she wanted a "better product" available. By this I think she meant some sort of vaccine that sounds "organic" or "natural."

I also understand this.

Some people don't easily comprehend that everything in biology is "chemicals," their interactions, and what it means for something to be toxic. I totally sympathized with her concerns, but also said you can't protest by not vaccinating. This isn't like the Free Market where you can protest with your dollar.

However, I had no way to alleviate her concerns, and that is where to real problem is.

If you don't trust authority because they have abused their power, what is left to do? Big Pharma and the FDA not only need better PR, but they actually need to behave better too. Until they can, there is no way out of this vaccine mess. Imposing stricter laws on citizens without comparable regulations on pharmaceutical companies and improved FDA oversight will only cause more grief. The people need to see action.

Oh, I have my reservations about all things man-made at times, but with vaccinations, the alternative is to come down with a really nasty disease and THAT is far worse IMHO. It's the same with the terms "organic" and "natural" used in food production. Organic or natural may mean it's supposed to be free of hormones, pesticides and herbicides, but that doesn't mean the food is safe and doesn't contain other naturally occurring bugs like E Coli, Salmonella and Listeria or man introduced viruses like Hepatitis tainting the product.