DescentBB

...either way, you have to appreciate the keen sense of timing here:
http://bluenationreview.com/house-gop-r ... tal-wreck/

the NTSB stated that slowed rollout, for fiscal reasons, of key safety equipment, might have been a contributing factor in the accident. Further, as I just heard some talking head state: trains going 100 mph or more AVERAGE speed are routine in Europe and Asia. I know vast parts of the US are functionally impassable for highspeed rail, and completely impractical, but between major hub cities? Yet, every time someone brings up investing in our infrastructure, even if it means borrowing at very low interest rates, it gets rejected out of hand by these nitwits. Just because, in some measure, it's You Know Who suggesting the idea. Sad, and our grandkids will pay for the stupidity and lack of foresight.

Well geez slick. Didn't you know that Republicans think that everything works much better when it's done for profit? Kind of like the airlines.....flying cattle cars for the lowly masses, moooooo!

Spending money on things the poors use is wealth redistribution you communist. Why do you hate America so much?

Yea, and I just got finished watching a show about the possibility of creating more dangers for humans by becoming more and more dependent on technology for our safety.

Anyway….

In my opinion this is a clear case of human error…I mean WTF going 106 MPH in a 50 MPH zone.

Sure, this accident may have been avoided by using the auto system, but WTF happened to basic low tech common sense safety measures.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending the cuts…I’m just saying…

Yeah, I'm not too fond of some of that technology they're putting in new cars right now either. Software upgrades? EEEEEK! Think of driving your reliable PC after Microsoft or Apple runs a borked update.

And don't pass judgement on the engineer just yet. The NTSB is still investigating.

tunnelcat wrote:Yeah, I'm not too fond of some of that technology they're putting in new cars right now either. Software upgrades? EEEEEK! Think of driving your reliable PC after Microsoft or Apple runs a borked update.

And don't pass judgement on the engineer just yet. The NTSB is still investigating.

Last time I updated Windows, there were somewhere north of 40,000 updates and changes made. I never have any system issues aside from a few third-party software errors.

Personally, I'm all for automated transportation. It would mean less humans driving, which you'll recognise as a good thing if you've ever been on the freeway. Plus, I mean, what's not to like about mass public transportation? It has the potential to be cheaper, better on the environment, faster, more comfortable, safer, and more reliable.

Rush Limbaugh predicted the other day that the Dems would find a way to blame the Repub. for the train crash. Looks like he wasn't wrong.

woodchip wrote:Rush Limbaugh predicted the other day that the Dems would find a way to blame the Repub. for the train crash. Looks like he wasn't wrong.

find a way?? The GOP held the vote yesterday afternoon AFTER the crash. No one is blaming them FOR the crash, only holding back funding which MAY have protected the passengers in that train. So Rush might be prescient only in the clear fact that this sort of short sightedness comes back to haunt them, and deservedly so.

Too bad the democrats didn't have the House and the Senate and a President who was all for infrastructure type 'shovel ready jobs' because they certainly would have prevented that crash that the evil republicans caused.

Will Robinson wrote:Too bad the democrats didn't have the House and the Senate and a President who was all for infrastructure type 'shovel ready jobs' because they certainly would have prevented that crash that the evil republicans caused.

they tried, but the GOP blocked every infrastructure proposal put forth in 2009. Go look it up. And, if you can't figure out how you can block a majority Congress, go read up on ''filibuster" and "cloture". Yeesh. Another lame-ass argument framed as 'but, lookee, the Dems are the cause', when it is quite clear that isn't the case.

and, I'll apparently have to reiterate: does the nation truly wish to continue allowing core infrastructure to rot, and not be modernized? Not only rail, but water, sewer, electrical grid, communications, etc? That is the notion the GOP is selling, along with the sort of vain hope that 'private enterprise' will come in an pay for it all, sometime, at unknown cost to consumers. I think that is wrong, and that we ALL should be paying via taxes, and if borrowing is required, it is STILL a good investment. No intent to really focus this on one train crash, or a rehash of the usual Obama-whine/Democrats are Evil nonsense.

callmeslick wrote:...trains going 100 mph or more AVERAGE speed are routine in Europe and Asia.

My trip to Japan a few weeks ago was eye-opening in many ways, not the least of which was seeing how good public transportation can be, even in a country whose economy is doing poorly.

My friend and I sprung for the sold-only-to-tourists rail passes, so we took subways and trains (including a few Shinkansen, which I clocked at nearly 200mph multiple times) all over the country.

Now, I know it wouldn't work well in much of the U.S., but it was certainly a glimpse into how far the U.S. transportation system lags behind, particularly in big cities.

thanks for that, Foil. As I said in the OP, I know, too, that you aren't running high speed commuter runs through, say, Montana and Idaho. However, I see no reason why we haven't invested in highspeed rail between most major cities, especially on the coasts and up the Missisippi valley.

callmeslick wrote:thanks for that, Foil. As I said in the OP, I know, too, that you aren't running high speed commuter runs through, say, Montana and Idaho. However, I see no reason why we haven't invested in highspeed rail between most major cities, especially on the coasts and up the Missisippi valley.

I thought you already told us Obama and the democrat controlled congress (super majority in fact) couldn't because republicans filibustered all the bills they introduced to solve those problems.
That and they went along with Obamas sequester plan which became solely their fault as soon as they supported it. It is really that simple isn't it?

I'm sure you were absolutely telling the truth when you implied that so why the confusion now? I'm sure you could cite the Bills the Dem's introduced that were filibustered, must be lots of them....and nothing in them but good will, rainbows for all and unicorn tears...

Will Robinson wrote:

callmeslick wrote:thanks for that, Foil. As I said in the OP, I know, too, that you aren't running high speed commuter runs through, say, Montana and Idaho. However, I see no reason why we haven't invested in highspeed rail between most major cities, especially on the coasts and up the Missisippi valley.

I thought you already told us Obama and the democrat controlled congress (super majority in fact) couldn't because republicans filibustered all the bills they introduced to solve those problems.

yes, they did, but I don't see where that changes the whole point that we SHOULD have passed those bills, and a lot more. Still, keep focusing on the Evil Dems and Antichrist President while the nation goes toward 3rd world infrastructure. Thanks for your contribution to citizenship, would that you even grasped the concept.

Can you please list some or all the Bills the Dems had defeated by filibuster during the time they had the super majority? Because the filibuster is the only thing that a republican could have done to stop them from doing all this good stuff you say they wanted to do.

Obama ran on the catch phrase 'shovel ready jobs' and the theme of creating jobs via infrastructure projects. I'm finding it very hard to believe he worked toward delivering anything but campaign rhetoric in that arena.
He kept up with Obamacare, why not infrastructure and shovel ready? Or...if those Repubs were so good at stopping him how did they forget to filibuster Obamacare?
Your story has holes in it I think.

You can try to deflect the questions by impugning my contribution to citizenship but I recall Hillary saying she is "sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and disagree with this administration, somehow you're not patriotic. We need to stand up and say we're Americans,"
So certainly I can disagree with slick and still be a good american. Hell, a lot of people would say I'm doing the right thing to doubt you!

And then there is the premise you base your comments on....the question you asked initially. Apparently the answer is yes if they keep electing the people who caused this to happen.

I wonder where we would be now if Dems like Barney Frank hadn't blocked legislation to regulate mortgage derivatives back when Bush was in office. No Great Recession? No need to balloon the deficit another 10 trillion?

woodchip wrote:I wonder where we would be now if Dems like Barney Frank hadn't blocked legislation to regulate mortgage derivatives back when Bush was in office. No Great Recession? No need to balloon the deficit another 10 trillion?

As if there's more than one side. I don't know what specific legislation you're referring to, but everyone gets to take a bite out of the sh!t sandwich.

S. 900: Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (1999)
(repealed Glass-Steagall)
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/106-1999/h570

H.R. 4541: Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000
(deregulated derivatives)
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/106-2000/h540

callmeslick wrote:

Hell, Chinese trains are more modern because the U.S. is essentially paying for them.

MD-1118 wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:Yeah, I'm not too fond of some of that technology they're putting in new cars right now either. Software upgrades? EEEEEK! Think of driving your reliable PC after Microsoft or Apple runs a borked update.

And don't pass judgement on the engineer just yet. The NTSB is still investigating.

Last time I updated Windows, there were somewhere north of 40,000 updates and changes made. I never have any system issues aside from a few third-party software errors.

Personally, I'm all for automated transportation. It would mean less humans driving, which you'll recognise as a good thing if you've ever been on the freeway. Plus, I mean, what's not to like about mass public transportation? It has the potential to be cheaper, better on the environment, faster, more comfortable, safer, and more reliable.

You haven't been burned by one of Microsoft's updates then. Lucky you. I've also got one HP media computer that's a few years older than my gaming rig which is starting to run slower and slower and more twitchy as Microsoft updates Windows 7 (probably doing surreptitious in place Windows 10 upgrades I'm guessing ). Updating it is a long, arduous process. Kind of like watching paint dry. Then I have to worry if it will even reboot and be alive at all. It no longer boots as quickly as it used too either. Another laptop of mine I've had to retire because it can no longer deal with Windows 7 and it's present bloatware build state. It takes it 15 minutes just to be able to restart after installing one of Microsoft's monthly updates, not including the download and install process. Plus, technology is just a way to enforce the planned obsolescence of every new product IMO.

As for car software updates, they're already having to update embedded software to fix bugs, on critical engine or transmission systems too. Are you also ready to deal with hackers getting into your car's systems as well? So with that, do you still trust automated cars at this moment in time with our current state of technology?

http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/04/technol ... index.html

http://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2014/ ... date.shtml

Gotta love the comparison between the passenger train and the freight train.

One reason we don’t have high speed rail here is a very complicated conflict between the airline industry and rail, which has little to do with government infrastructure investment.

Hmmm. Sounds like a profit-driven free market issue to me. Plus, no one in this country wants to pay for things that everyone benefits from, like high speed commuter trains. Maybe one day, when fuel prices are so horrendous that aircraft are not a cost effective means of transporting us poor cattle from place to place, high speed trains will come into their own, and be maintained properly for once.

As for locomotive comparisons, we're still not even close to the Japanese or Chinese. This is the new diesel Genesis for Amtrak. Still not very speedy or streamlined.



The electric is no better.

I wonder how people will deal with the eminent domain issues if we ever do decide to create a high speed system…you can’t just shut down the old lines and build them in place unless you want to strand millions of commuters…for years.

callmeslick wrote:

I'll fix the caption for you:

"Let's exploit our working class more"

nothing fixed, in fact nothing about your version makes sense in the context of this discussion.

After looking into the failure of government that Amtrak is I find it remarkable that Dem's can raise the safety and funding of Amtrak as an issue and not have it thrown in their faces by swarms of journalists.

Then again I can't recall the name of any journalists....

Curious but the equipment to auto slow trains down is already in place. Amtrak was holding off due to complexity of turning it on. So to those of you blaming the GOP, think again. Remember, the federal govt had a hard time getting a health care website to work so why should we expect them to handle their train system any differently?

The real problem here is blaming secondary safety systems or lack there of, instead of looking at the reason the primary safety system failed.

There is a certain protocol here, and its being broken for political gain, yea there is a proper place for the couda-shouda-wouda conversation, but not yet.

The inherent flaw in going right to the secondary systems is, there is always another system to blame…I’m sure seatbelts could have saved lives, but if they fail…where were the airbags, and why don’t they have guard rails. Blah Blah Blah…

Will Robinson wrote:After looking into the failure of government that Amtrak is I find it remarkable that Dem's can raise the safety and funding of Amtrak as an issue and not have it thrown in their faces by swarms of journalists.

Then again I can't recall the name of any journalists....

how is it a failure to run a public service at a loss? I use Amtrak regularly, have for decades. It is generally reliable here on the East Coast, albeit could be faster, but there is no better way for me to get to Boston, NYC or DC. That they operate at a loss, in similar fashion to the Post Office, is largely a function of the constaints placed by Congress anyway, but as I said, it is a PUBLIC accomodation, not some sort of profit center, or ought to be. In most civilized places, the citizens accept that having first class mass transportation is a public good, funded by taxes.

Spidey wrote:The real problem here is blaming secondary safety systems or lack there of, instead of looking at the reason the primary safety system failed.

There is a certain protocol here, and its being broken for political gain, yea there is a proper place for the couda-shouda-wouda conversation, but not yet.

The inherent flaw in going right to the secondary systems is, there is always another system to blame…I’m sure seatbelts could have saved lives, but if they fail…where were the airbags, and why don’t they have guard rails. Blah Blah Blah…

actually, as of this AM, it seems something large hit the engine's windows in front, so having a secondary in place might have saved lives. Redundancy is a good thing.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:After looking into the failure of government that Amtrak is I find it remarkable that Dem's can raise the safety and funding of Amtrak as an issue and not have it thrown in their faces by swarms of journalists.

Then again I can't recall the name of any journalists....

how is it a failure to run a public service at a loss? I use Amtrak regularly, have for decades. It is generally reliable here on the East Coast, albeit could be faster, but there is no better way for me to get to Boston, NYC or DC. That they operate at a loss, in similar fashion to the Post Office, is largely a function of the constaints placed by Congress anyway, but as I said, it is a PUBLIC accomodation, not some sort of profit center, or ought to be. In most civilized places, the citizens accept that having first class mass transportation is a public good, funded by taxes.

it isn't a public utility or service it is a quasi private transportation entity and the result of everything wrong with government meddling.
For example, you, nor most riders of those trains deserve to have us subsidizing your ticket every time you ride. Pay your own way.

If you want to subsidize the small percentage that would pass a means test to qualify then provide them with 'train stamps' to go along with their food stamps. And let the rail lines that aren't profitable shut down since the poor people down there ride busses anyway...
Frikken labor costs are through the roof (union protected jobs/voters), poor people still can't afford the tickets where there are trains, government forcing trains to run where people don't want them, and you rich guys ride cheap spouting off about public service...meh. More like self serving.

the government model=clusterfuck

callmeslick wrote:actually, as of this AM, it seems something large hit the engine's windows in front, so having a secondary in place might have saved lives. Redundancy is a good thing.

No dead man switch…shame on Amtrak…shame on any rail company that has removed them.

Spidey wrote:

callmeslick wrote:actually, as of this AM, it seems something large hit the engine's windows in front, so having a secondary in place might have saved lives. Redundancy is a good thing.

No dead man switch…shame on Amtrak…shame on any rail company that has removed them.

Lol!
Actually it can't be Amtrak's fault since they are pets of the big government fraternity, it must have been Newt Gingrich who defunded the dead man switch right before he did away with clean air and school lunches.

Will Robinson wrote:Lol! Actually it can't be Amtrak's fault since they are pets of the big government fraternity, it must have been Newt Gingrich who defunded the dead man switch right before he did away with clean air and school lunches.

You know, Gringrich WOULD be the type of politician who'd like to cut taxes, damn the consciences, especially his "very serious deregulation" plans he spoke of back when he ran for president. Just as Amtrak is getting popular today, he'd have run it off the rails by now if he'd been elected president. There would probably be some private-for-profit commuter train instead that would cost far more than the average commuter could afford to pay. It wouldn't be any safer either. Even corporations like to cut costs to the bone, to hell with safety. There are a few recent oil train accidents that blew oil all over the place like flamethrowers that come to mind.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43149295

tunnelcat wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Lol! Actually it can't be Amtrak's fault since they are pets of the big government fraternity, it must have been Newt Gingrich who defunded the dead man switch right before he did away with clean air and school lunches.

You know, Gringrich WOULD be the type of politician who'd like to cut taxes, damn the consciences, especially his "very serious deregulation" plans he spoke of back when he ran for president. Just as Amtrak is getting popular today, he'd have run it off the rails by now if he'd been elected president. There would probably be some private-for-profit commuter train instead that would cost far more than the average commuter could afford to pay. It wouldn't be any safer either. Even corporations like to cut costs to the bone, to hell with safety. There are a few recent oil train accidents that blew oil all over the place like flamethrowers that come to mind.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43149295

Well unfortunately all that wonderfully 'objective' insight and speculation you just shared is off the mark.
The current average Amtrak commuter earns above average pay. The average ticket though has a $60 subsidy applied as a discount to the price. And the trains only do a thriving business in the places where those kind of commuters are.

Out there in the land of the actual average person they use cars and busses to get to work and the trains don't even have tracks in most of those places. But the taxpayers in ALL those places are paying 1 billion dollars a year to support slick and his other above average commuters to ride cheaply.

More fun facts:
The rail workers on the Amtrak trains are payed at least 1.6 times what the European railworker counterparts earn. In some places 92% of the Amtrak ticket price is spent on the labor.
The 'cadillac benefit packages' they get are close to a third of the cost.
You remember that phrase right? Cadillac policies that during the election campaign Obama said he was going to tax them out of existence because he assumed only fat cat republican white men had them....until his union supporters called him to heel and informed him his party won't get the votes they control unless he exempt them from his attacks.

But I digress, it's 'all tea party republicans making a mess of the country'. Right?

And now you will pay some lip service to disassociate yourself from such an obviously incorrect assesment ....before you go right back to supporting it anyway like a good little democrat.

callmeslick wrote:nothing fixed, in fact nothing about your version makes sense in the context of this discussion.

It makes as much sense (more more) as attributing the difference in the two locomotives to spending money on wars. If we had exploitive labour state-side, we'd be manufacturing the bulk of the goods (including fancy looking train parts)... making our cost to make the fancy looking train lower while simultaneously giving the Chinese economy less money to work with to make fancy looking trains of their own.

[quote="Will Robinson"]it isn't a public utility or service it is a quasi private transportation entity and the result of everything wrong with government meddling.
For example, you, nor most riders of those trains deserve to have us subsidizing your ticket every time you ride. Pay your own way.[/quote[
nonsense. It should be subsidized far MORE heavily, so that far MORE people can utilize it. The rest of the gibberish you wrote, especially about not running trains where they are utilized shows complete ignorance of the system.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:it isn't a public utility or service it is a quasi private transportation entity and the result of everything wrong with government meddling.
For example, you, nor most riders of those trains deserve to have us subsidizing your ticket every time you ride. Pay your own way.[/quote[
nonsense. It should be subsidized far MORE heavily, so that far MORE people can utilize it. The rest of the gibberish you wrote, especially about not running trains where they are utilized shows complete ignorance of the system.

I didn't say "they are not running trains where they are utilized"... That doesn't even make sense

I said there are places where they don't run trains and people use busses and cars to get to get around instead. That is most of America!
And the government mandates Amtrak will run trains in some places where the people still don't use them enough to make it anywhere near profitable....because busses and cars are cheaper and more convenient.

Amtrak was concieved as an inner-city rail system not a commuter system. It serves a tiny percentage of American travelers and politicians have created routes that serve their resume to ignorant voters not the greater good of the citizens. And those routes leak money like a screen door in a submarine. Any route over 400 miles is too slow, too expensive (even with the government subsidy) and not used by the people. Further, over 90% of America doesn't use any of the rail system.

What I wrote is an example of knowing something about the system. I read the government's own report on the viability of the system. You had nothing to refute the facts so you attack the messenger. Standard slick operating procedure. Enjoy your commute on the taxpayers dime rich man.

well, you got the spelling wrong, Will, but the meaning correct. Amtrak is supposed to be an inter-city system, linking places which have local transport connectors to the system. The overall problem is still that we don't build anywhere near a robust enough infrastructure. We need better connectors, and better, faster trains between the major cities. We should have Amtrak not just up and down the coasts, with a handful of routes across the midsection, but with robust, SUBSIDIZED routing between most major cities. No reason one shouldn't be able to hop onto a high-speed train from, say, Atlanta to Chicago, which doesn't require jumping onto 3 or 4 separate trains to complete the run. I should be able to get to New Orleans quicker than the day and a half it currently takes me on the Crescent. As someone noted above there has been a battle ongoing for decades between rail development and pushing air travel. I'm in the camp for rail getting primacy, and am quite aware that it is going to cost a lot of money. However, while Will and others decry subsidizing people riding Amtrak now, it is a core support system for financial commerce in the East. Expanding it as I'd like would support commercial growth in a lot more places than the DC to Boston corridor.