DescentBB

There really needs to be some sort of notification when posts are removed after being followed by other posts. I thought that was kind of basic...

E&C Forum

Or people can just stop posting personal attacks and stuff, and then mods don't have to worry about how they might be rewarding said behavior by acknowledging it or letting it drag posts off topic.

[FWIW I did not remove any of the posts in question, though I want to remove about 30% of new posts basically every time I read E&C.]

Only 30%?

yeah, I was just about to say "only 30%?".

Well by all means delete the posts, but even a private notification would be nice. I had to figure out why vision was misunderstanding me, and it was because one of the posts that was killed contained a more concise question leading to my surviving reply. The way the modding was done changed the perceived meaning of my post and made it look like I was answering one question when actually I had insisted on a more specific question. If some mod is going to get fed up enough with this forum that my concerns stated above don't matter, then I suggest said mod either take a hiatus or you folks seriously discuss bringing the E&C to a close. I'm not mad or anything (the modding was actually mostly in my favor), but I think that level of moderating is beneath the standards of any BB. Letting users know there has been a change by a mod to the topic is all I'm asking. Is that unreasonable?

ST wrote:If some mod is going to get fed up enough with this forum that my concerns stated above don't matter, then I suggest said mod either take a hiatus or you folks seriously discuss bringing the E&C to a close. I'm not mad or anything (the modding was actually mostly in my favor), but I think that level of moderating is beneath the standards of any BB. Letting users know there has been a change by a mod to the topic is all I'm asking. Is that unreasonable?

I don't know. We asked you to not personally attack one another. Is that unreasonable for us to ask for?

Giving attention to someone for bad behavior can have the opposite of a deterrent effect, and when it turns a thread into a debate over moderation, then a notification doesn't help the discussion get back on track either. When we moderate, we really do try to it the best way possible even if we don't always succeed.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:There really needs to be some sort of notification when posts are removed after being followed by other posts. I thought that was kind of basic...

E&C Forum

I made this for you

Thanks, Isaac... I guess. Has nothing to do with what you quoted.

Jeff if you folks are willing to run a half-assed operation that's your business. I'll butt out. Standards are important, and a certain level of respect even for users in violation of the rules is essential in my view. I didn't expect so much resistance to a request for clarity in practice. ...Starting to remind me of the management in my soon-to-be-former job. Frankly the whole "yeah but you guys shouldn't be making personal attacks" (I didn't make a personal attack in my removed post, BTW) doesn't even belong in this topic. Puts me in a position of having to either assume the OP and following post have been assumed instead of read, or lose respect for those seeing fit to bring it up. I'm just telling you how it is. No insult intended toward anyone. I appreciate your comment about not highlighting bad behavior to the detriment of the topic, but I don't see why this is even mentioned when one of the options you have (and I mentioned) is private warning/notification.

You can also avoid misunderstanding by directly addressing the person you're addressing (ie, "Jeff, I think blah blah blah" instead of just "I think blah blah blah".) Or even by quoting the relevant comment.

If someone's post is completely inappropriate, to the degree that you think quoting them will get your post removed too, maybe it's not worth responding to in the first place. Just click "report" or "flag" or whatever this board calls it.

Isaac wrote:

Sergeant Thorne wrote:There really needs to be some sort of notification when posts are removed after being followed by other posts. I thought that was kind of basic...

E&C Forum

I made this for you

I didn't mean to quote yours. I quoted the wrong person.

This is utterly hilarious.

You think the E&C mods are overly controlling?

What a joke. The amount of personal attacks they let you bickering blockheads get away with in the E&C is so laughable that you may as well call it no moderating.

The only thing the mods are guilty of in there is inconsistency. You're so used to it being a no holds barred section of course you get all bent out of shape when some of your worthless insults get removed.

I honestly have no idea why the DBB admins bother to keep that shithole of a sub-forum operational. There is very little there in the way of constructive argument. All each thread is, with few rare exceptions, is someone posting something that they disagree with, a couple posts of back and forth, and then the anti-liberal/anti-conservative insults start flying. Considering the amount of traffic that forum sees compared to the amount of moderating it gets and considering the number of moderators it has leads me to one inescapable conclusion: it does not have nearly enough mods assigned to it in order to moderate it to the level it ought to be, and the mods that are assigned to it have no interest in cleaning it up to the best of their abilities either because they literally just don't care enough, don't have the time, or are simply letting the status quo go on because "that's how it's always been".

Like I said in another thread in this forum, the wasteland of bull★■◆● arguments that is the E&C can be dealt with in three ways to alleviate the problem:
1. Assign additional moderators and enforce a policy of no personal attacks, or an "argue posts, not posters" stance on moderation. This would result in an astronomical amount of deletions until those who still want to participate have gotten used to the new rules. Violators would need to be punished somehow after a reasonable grace period, likely with temp-bans and permanent-bans.
2. Declare the E&C moderation free except for when something goes down that could leave the DBB in a legally precarious position such as libel.
3. Do away with that hellhole completely.

Personally I think #3 is the best option. What purpose does that forum fill that can't be better filled on a dedicated politics forum somewhere else? What does it have to do with Descent? Are attack-filled arguments really something that should be listed in the very top block of forums, making the venom filled E&C one of the first places a new visitor to the boards is likely to check out?

The E&C is garbage.

And quite frankly, the assertion that the mods there are overly controlling is just utterly preposterous. The only reason they appear overly controlling is they're inconsistent and rarely use the powers they should be regularly using on that place instead.

Also you misspelled janitor. And as someone who is a moderator on another forum that has much higher moderation standards than the E&C, I can very much say what a nice personal attack that is on someone who does what is ultimately a completely thankless job. That images continued existence is evidence of how completely lax it is on this board and how you should be thanking them for having such a laid back sense of humor and self-deprecation. Jerk.

Avder wrote:This is utterly hilarious.

You think the E&C mods are overly controlling?

Not all. But a few, yes.(edit, took a look at who mods there) I didn't read the rest. It was a bit too much "blah blah".

edit: Took a look to see who was there. Jeff is awesome. The others, unnecessary. I see Foil and I thought Lothar was on there, but he's on a different one. When he gets bored he uses mod tools for no reason.

Isaac wrote:

Avder wrote:This is utterly hilarious.

You think the E&C mods are overly controlling?

Not all. But a few, yes.(edit, took a look at who mods there) I didn't read the rest. It was a bit too much "blah blah".

edit: Took a look to see who was their. Jeff is awesome. The others, unnecessary. I see Foil and I thought Lothar was on there, but he's on a different one. When he gets bored he uses mod tools for no reason.

Blah blah blah yourself.

TL;DR = I forfeit my right to be heard.

In other words, CRAM IT until you READ IT.

Avder wrote:TL;DR = I forfeit my right to be heard

or at least the right to be taken seriously.

Avder wrote:TL;DR = I forfeit my right to be heard.

In other words, CRAM IT until you READ IT.

No it's super long. No need to be butt hurt.

Lothar wrote:

Avder wrote:TL;DR = I forfeit my right to be heard

or at least the right to be taken seriously.

When have I done anything seriously around here?

And again, another topic on the feedback section that has something to do with E&C and moderators. Feels like a deja vu here.

So, when will be E&C finally closed?

Pumo wrote:And again, another topic on the feedback section that has something to do with E&C and moderators. Feels like a deja vu here.

So, when will be E&C finally closed?

When the owners feel like we're not worth the money they pay to keep the place running they'll close down and we'll all find a different place. Until that day, unless we're doing illegal things on here (stuff that could force the place to get shut down), we have no need for censorship of any kind.

Mods going "I don't like how you said that" shows we have mods that don't know their purpose.

Damn Pumo, I had no idea you were so selfish.

E&C is not over moderated, that’s for sure, but sometimes I do wonder just why people have to be told to behave, when they are just doing stuff adults do all of the time.

I think the choice of more moderation or no moderation to be valid, but closing a forum just because some people don’t like it is pure BS, go get a life, and mind your own business.

Maybe someone should take away your favorite forum because some people don’t like it.

Selfish bastids.

No Spidey, I'm not saying it should be closed because I don't like it (I'm almost never there in the first place).

I'm saying that it should be closed because I see it causes hostility and issues between the users here, and I don't think that's a good thing to have on a community dedicated to entertainment (as Descent is a videogame).

I just see it causes trouble to the fellow Descenters, not to me at all; And I see lots of complaining from Lothar, Krom, Jeff, Ferno, Sgt. Thorne, Vision, woodchip, and even from you from time to time, so I suppose it's causing more trouble than any benefit.

But I may be wrong, and if you like to live in hostility and like to insult each other, it's OK with me, I just thought it would be better for all of you Descenters to gather on a nicer and peaceful place to get along. But you see, I may be wrong (and TBH I never said my opinion is the right one).

So, if arguing and fighting is really your cup of tea, and you really like to be here to do that, it's OK, no problem here.


EDIT: BTW, you see how that E&C forum even caused a misunderstanding between you an me? that's why in my very humble opinion, I think its existence is toxic.
But take for sure I don't have anything against any of the users that enjoy it, and that I acknowldege that there are people that really enjoys to get into hot topics as it can be some form of entertainment and a way to vent off.

Well, I don’t need you looking after me, I’m a big boy now.

What if I make E&C a hidden forum that only shows up if you join an open user group for access to it?

No, I think that's a bad idea. "New blood" is relatively rare these days in E&C, but it's still needed (and it still helps). Isolating E&C from the outside would make it even more stagnant. Ugh.

Spidey wrote:Damn Pumo, I had no idea you were so selfish.

E&C is not over moderated, that’s for sure, but sometimes I do wonder just why people have to be told to behave, when they are just doing stuff adults do all of the time.

I think the choice of more moderation or no moderation to be valid, but closing a forum just because some people don’t like it is pure BS, go get a life, and mind your own business.

Maybe someone should take away your favorite forum because some people don’t like it.

Selfish bastids.

Not selfish. Adults don't act like total dicks to each other.

What the hell is your definition of selfish? Mine is having something you enjoy, while seeking to take away something that someone else enjoys…something in which you don’t even have any skin in the game, and is basically none of your business.

If you don’t like E&C…stay the hell out!

Spidey wrote:What the hell is your definition of selfish? Mine is having something you enjoy, while seeking to take away something that someone else enjoys…something in which you don’t even have any skin in the game, and is basically none of your business.

If you don’t like E&C…stay the hell out!

dude, selfishness is not sharing what you have with other people. c'mon, this is silly. But you've essentially nailed the definition of 'dick'.

Ferno wrote:

Spidey wrote:What the hell is your definition of selfish? Mine is having something you enjoy, while seeking to take away something that someone else enjoys…something in which you don’t even have any skin in the game, and is basically none of your business.

If you don’t like E&C…stay the hell out!

dude, selfishness is not sharing what you have with other people. c'mon, this is silly. But you've essentially nailed the definition of 'dick'.

No a dick is a male organ used for scaring people on the subway.

Heh, interesting that a thread about moderation devolves into personal shots (and thus itself needs moderation.)

If I were moderating this forum, the last four posts would be removed (yes, I'd leave a note), and the thread might be locked.

Ferno wrote:

Spidey wrote:What the hell is your definition of selfish? Mine is having something you enjoy, while seeking to take away something that someone else enjoys…something in which you don’t even have any skin in the game, and is basically none of your business.

If you don’t like E&C…stay the hell out!

dude, selfishness is not sharing what you have with other people. c'mon, this is silly. But you've essentially nailed the definition of 'dick'.

No, I think the word you want is…Stingy

1.reluctant to give or spend; not generous; niggardly; penurious:

I used Selfish

1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

And this is the final result: This thread turned into a hostile argument where each side is starting to resort to personal attacks.

Why the hostility in the first place?

Yes…guilty…I tend to get hostile when someone tries to take something I enjoy, for no good reason.

Then I get corrected for no good reason….

See that’s just how real life goes…can’t blame a forum for that.

What was that line from Star Trek…

Patron: Don’t make me angry.
Barkeep: No…you came in that way.

But it's not exactly you the guilty one, I think every side participating on the argument has a share of that guilt.

I think you already made pretty clear that you totally enjoy E&C (enough to get into an argument to defend that section), so the next step here would be to find a peaceful solution to keep that section running for the ones like you that truly like it, without affecting the rest of the community (that is, with an intelligent way to contain its toxicity and prevent it to reach the outer areas of the forum).

I already understood how much importance E&C has to some users here.

So mods, any practical ideas here, besides the one from Krom?
(I will see if I can think of any practical idea here, but I'm not exactly an expert on running big forums, so... )

Pumo wrote:So mods, any practical ideas here...?

If your goal is to prevent issues between members of E&C from "spilling out" into other forum sections, here's something that would help:

Allow E&C mods to clean up other forums, or at least allow them to move threads (e.g. to E&C for handling, or to No Holds Barred).

When Jeff250 and I see junk from E&C pop up in the Café (or here, or elsewhere), we can't clean it up. We can only report it and wait for an admin or a mod in that section to get to it, which sometimes takes a while.

When I figure out how a forum that has to be clicked on, and actually read, has a toxic affect on the “rest of the community” I will have an answer for you.

The only answer I could come up with right now, would be to have an ignore function that works on forums, instead of users.

Then you guys can pretend real life doesn’t exist on this fantasy board.

The toxicity that affects the 'rest of the community' doesn't comes exactly from clicking on E&C, but from the stuff that spews from it to other forums like the Cafe, this Feedback section, etc.

And precisely here you can see that effect in action.
I'm not visiting E&C and I've not even made click on the link to that section since a long time ago, and still, just for participating on a topic related to it in the Feedback section, things got a bit heated up and a bit personal.

BTW, Foil's idea is not bad at all. It may not be perfect, but I see it can help at least a bit.

This thread didn’t go toxic until Vader (a former E&C user) stepped in and started insulting us.

Spidey wrote:This thread didn’t go toxic until Vader (a former E&C user) stepped in and started insulting us.

I didn't feel insulted at all. Strong-worded opinion yes. Insulting? Debatable. Maybe you just wanted to feel insulted?

Yes, I just wanted to be insulted. In fact I sent Vader a PM asking him to please come into this thread and insult me.

So you’re a psychoanalyst now.

Spidey wrote:This thread didn’t go toxic until Vader (a former E&C user) stepped in and started insulting us.

I stepped in because I think the whining about over-moderation in a completely under-moderated forum is outright laughable. Oh, and that silly image that isaac posted is really nice and insulting to moderators. It's an absolutely thankless job that gets you a ton of insults hurled at you, just like in real life when you try to be the voice of reason between two bickering jerks who are more concerned about making the other look bad than having an actual discussion. You should thank them for putting up with you to be honest.

And it's Avder, btw. I haven't gone by Vader in over a decade. I'll thank you to respect that.

I think Krom's idea of making E&C a hidden forum has merit. On the boards I moderate we have a politics board that is similarly hidden. That forum btw is unmoderated except for like two or three very specific rules, and I think the E&C might benefit from either a narrowing or broadening of moderation, not the sort of limbo it sits in now. Like I keep saying, either crack down on the flame wars or designate it almost completely unmoderated. Would hiding it keep new blood from finding it? Absolutely. But really, how often does that forum get new blood anyway? How often do these forums get new blood in general? And if these boards are trying to find new blood, why should the E&C be presented near the top of the forums list? I'm willing to bet its turned way more potential users off than it's ever gained these forums.

Foil's complaint about not being able to clean up spillover from the E&C also has merit. I have no idea if this particular forum software has support for it, but something like a "global moderator" would be a good idea. Basically it means that while a mod is not responsible for a forum other than his assigned forums, he can, if needed, step in and clean up messes on other forums. It might be a good idea to assign that status to the sites most active moderators so they can do cleanup as needed anywhere it might be needed on the forums.

Spidey wrote:Yes, I just wanted to be insulted. In fact I sent Vader a PM asking him to please come into this thread and insult me.

So you’re a psychoanalyst now.

well, can you hear tone of voice through text?