DescentBB

The old saw 'be careful what you ask for' seems to be playing out with serious consequences.

Antoinette Perrine has barricaded her front door since her brother was killed three weeks ago on a basketball court near her home in the Harlem Park neighborhood of West Baltimore.
She already has iron bars outside her windows and added metal slabs on the inside to deflect the gunfire.
“I’m afraid to go outside,” said Perrine, 47. “It’s so bad, people are afraid to let their kids outside. People wake up with shots through their windows. Police used to sit on every corner, on the top of the block. These days? They’re nowhere.”

I welcome the attempt to suggest this phenomenon is not caused by the culture living in those streets as much if not more than by the culture of police or a cabal of evil republicans somewhere because I enjoy a good laugh.

People seem to not want the police to do their job:

"Our officers tell me that when officers pull up, they have 30 to 50 people surrounding them at any time,” Batts said.

Can you blame the cops for not going into those neighborhoods?

I wonder if it is possible to have an intermediary authority between state law enforcement and troubled communities? I don't know enough about this kind of thing. Are the successful examples of deputizing community members to help solve problems of crime and violence?

vision wrote:I wonder if it is possible to have an intermediary authority between state law enforcement and troubled communities? I don't know enough about this kind of thing. Are the successful examples of deputizing community members to help solve problems of crime and violence?

I don't know of any examples of organizing members of a community and authorizing them to replace police. In this particular case I think an armed authority from within the community would be met with the same resistance and perhaps even added contempt since they would quickly be named as Uncle Toms.

And why do you think a different person in the uniform would solve anything?
Do you really think the 'cops on every corner' that are now missing from the corners were only there out of bigotry towards the black citizens?
The cops generally get sent to where the crime is the worst. So now the cops have been restrained and the criminal element is unleashed.

The community definitely needs to effect changes from within but those changes are going to take generations to undo what was done wrong and, before it can begin, an epiphany that causes them to reject the narrative that has been preventing introspection.

You can legislate police tactics, assignments, etc. quickly as we are seeing but the criminal and dysfunctional elements are embracing the chaos not trying to rein it in. Their is no component that makes up the 'reins'....no ethos of self responsibility.

Any attempt to nurture that characteristic has been shouted down long ago by powerful players with different priorities.

vision wrote:I wonder if it is possible to have an intermediary authority between state law enforcement and troubled communities? I don't know enough about this kind of thing. Are the successful examples of deputizing community members to help solve problems of crime and violence?

One example would be the reserve officer that shot a guy by not knowing he did not have his tazer in hand. He was a local citizen but he made a mistake, just like anyone could.

My suggestion to the Feds that, instead of sitting in Washington and make up feel good policy that sounds good, they go out and ride the beat with a cop. Maybe their perspective will change.

Will Robinson wrote:And why do you think a different person in the uniform would solve anything?

That's what I'm asking. I have no idea. Many of these troubled communities are able to organize initiatives to improve their livelihood. How far can these ideas be extended? For example, If we decide this is a problem for the Black community to deal with on their own, how do we support efforts from the outside to maximize their success? I can see a lot of potential pitfalls to creating a special authority, but would the benefits outweigh the dangers?

Vision, as you stated in the abortion thread, human beings are fallible. Can't we say the same for police officers? Somehow the powers that be seem to think that by issuing guide lines, policemen will become infallible. I don't think existing training turns policemen into killers and sociopaths. Something happens that guidelines won't cure. The population they are there to protect can't go into bloody riots because a policeman screws up, they have to learn to trust the court system. If they want to riot then do it against those in charge by voting them out of office. Don't have to burn your neighborhood down to make your point.

woodchip wrote:Somehow the powers that be seem to think that by issuing guide lines, policemen will become infallible.

Give me a break. No one thinks that. However, we need to recognize there are serious problems within law organizations that need just as much attention as the communities they police.

In my imagination, there is a meeting of the minds between law enforcement and leaders in these communities to create a third, impartial party to help administer the peace. Surely there are successful examples out there. I don't have a lot of time to research this stuff right now.

vision wrote:....In my imagination, there is a meeting of the minds between law enforcement and leaders in these communities to create a third, impartial party to help administer the peace. ...

The police department's function is not to 'administer peace'. It administers enforcement of laws by seeking out criminals and arresting them so the courts can administer penalties.

The 'peace' is administered by citizens living in harmony and not breaking laws.

You could wave a wand and put all new people from any place or orginazation as replacement policemen in the streets of Baltimore and you won't have altered the 'peace'.

At best you will have returned the level of crime back to where you still have a need for 'cops sitting on every corner' of those neighborhoods. A level of "harassment" that is deemed "abusive".
And if those replacement cops didn't resume that level of police presence you would have the same deadly conditions that exist now...a place where a new Iraqi immigrant would feel like he was back home...

It's on the citizens to create peaceful conditions, it always has been.
Maybe Baltimore needs replacement citizens?

woodchip wrote:My suggestion to the Feds that, instead of sitting in Washington and make up feel good policy that sounds good, they go out and ride the beat with a cop. Maybe their perspective will change.

good Lord, the first time they tried it, you'd hear blather about infliltrating local police, and we'd have another Jade Helm stupidity on our hands.

callmeslick wrote:

woodchip wrote:My suggestion to the Feds that, instead of sitting in Washington and make up feel good policy that sounds good, they go out and ride the beat with a cop. Maybe their perspective will change.

good Lord, the first time they tried it, you'd hear blather about infliltrating local police, and we'd have another Jade Helm stupidity on our hands.

Right! Because finding out some lawmakers went on a ride along in a cop car in Baltimore is the same thing as thousands of U.S. military troops practicing civilian population control tactics in cities across numerous states

Again you need to misrepresent things to find a basis for your perspective.

Will Robinson wrote:At best you will have returned the level of crime back to where you still have a need for 'cops sitting on every corner' of those neighborhoods. A level of "harassment" that is deemed "abusive".

Let's get people on every corner that the community trusts. Let's give them agency, tools, and authority to make changes in their community. It might even include temporarily decriminalizing certain activities in exchange for less violence (hypothetically, I have ideas but no facts at this time). It might be redirecting people away from prisons and into rehabilitation centers. With the right support I believe we can dramatically improve these places within a generation.

Will Robinson wrote:It's on the citizens to create peaceful conditions, it always has been.

This is exactly what I am saying. There are people in those communities who work very hard to improve conditions. What can we do to help them?

it will be requiring help on all levels of government, a change in policing attitude, and every caring soul in and around the community to change Baltimore's culture of 'corner boys' running the streets.

callmeslick wrote:it will be requiring help on all levels of government, a change in policing attitude, and every caring soul in and around the community to change Baltimore's culture of 'corner boys' running the streets.

As long as there are congressmen who say the "young black men should be exempt from prosecution for selling cocaine because it is the only job the white man has left for them"....and party loyalists that will make excuses to rationalize that dispicable form of 'representation'....it isn't just the police that need an attitude adjustment.

How can you expect the black youth to respond to constructive guidance when they are the product of many generations deep accepting that mindset?!?

vision is dreaming if he thinks a solution is inside of a generation let alone a single year!

Will Robinson wrote:vision is dreaming if he thinks a solution is inside of a generation let alone a single year!

I said dramatically improve within a generation. The well-being of the average African-American has already improved vastly in the past 60 years. I'm not dreaming at all. In fact, good results are practically guaranteed given the current long-term momentum. Just need to get rid of the hopeless attitudes people like you have.

Vision asks what can be done about inner city violence and a dude from Conway, SC thinks he has the answers. Classic DBB bull right there. Give the communities something else to live for. Break the endless cycle of extreme poverty. Maybe it'll be better in thirty or forty years?

Inner city life hasn't improved for 40 years zuruck, what makes you think it will change for the better?

vision wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:vision is dreaming if he thinks a solution is inside of a generation let alone a single year!

I said dramatically improve within a generation. The well-being of the average African-American has already improved vastly in the past 60 years. I'm not dreaming at all. In fact, good results are practically guaranteed given the current long-term momentum. Just need to get rid of the hopeless attitudes people like you have.

First show us how life has gotten better. Second the people who need to get rid of their hopeless attitudes are the ones who live there.

Z.. wrote:Vision asks what can be done about inner city violence and a dude from Conway, SC thinks he has the answers. Classic DBB bull right there. Give the communities something else to live for. Break the endless cycle of extreme poverty. Maybe it'll be better in thirty or forty years?

and therein lies a key distinction. Maybe be BETTER, as once again, Will insists that a 'solution' be found.

vision wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:vision is dreaming if he thinks a solution is inside of a generation let alone a single year!

I said dramatically improve within a generation. The well-being of the average African-American has already improved vastly in the past 60 years. I'm not dreaming at all. In fact, good results are practically guaranteed given the current long-term momentum. Just need to get rid of the hopeless attitudes people like you have.

I pointed you directly to the 'hopelessness' being cultivated as a cash crop within that segment of society that needs to be addressed. And you danced right around that salient point in a curious way.

Im not raising them with out a father telling them they have no chance, that white men won't allow them to rise up, taunting them for working hard in school or as they say 'acting white', etc etc.

To suggest that instead my perception is hopeless and the only one that stands in the way of improvement is ridiculous. The kids growing up there are being turned into hopeless victims by the people that are in their heads daily. It has been going on for generations and it is, by far, the primary source of the problem.

But you follow the template that says to focus the narrative to 'outsiders' so the pimps can maintain power as they pretend to be the only thing standing between the hopeless and complete annihilation at the hands of the evil outsiders.

Z.. wrote:Vision asks what can be done about inner city violence and a dude from Conway, SC thinks he has the answers. Classic DBB bull right there. Give the communities something else to live for. Break the endless cycle of extreme poverty. Maybe it'll be better in thirty or forty years?

Are you to dim to see the cycle is what I'm talking about?
Yes I think so.

woodchip wrote:First show us how life has gotten better.

Well, we can start with being able to vote, hold positions as successful business owners and elected officials including POTUS, and no "separate but equal" bull★■◆●, but maybe you don't think those are improvements?

woodchip wrote:Second the people who need to get rid of their hopeless attitudes are the ones who live there.

There is hope everywhere in these places and it needs to be cultivated. Tons of programs exist to better these communities, most are underfunded, just like teacher salaries and whatnot.

Will Robinson wrote:I pointed you directly to the 'hopelessness' being cultivated as a cash crop within that segment of society that needs to be addressed. And you danced right around that salient point in a curious way.

Cash crop, huh? Well, why doesn't the free market come to the rescue? What can we offer that is a better product? Where is the creativity in finding solutions? Are you going to continue to parrot the tired old "blacks are weak-minded and it's not my problem" stance? Because you are doing it again. You don't have any good ideas, do you?

vision wrote:...

Will Robinson wrote:I pointed you directly to the 'hopelessness' being cultivated as a cash crop within that segment of society that needs to be addressed. And you danced right around that salient point in a curious way.

Cash crop, huh? Well, why doesn't the free market come to the rescue? What can we offer that is a better product? Where is the creativity in finding solutions? Are you going to continue to parrot the tired old "blacks are weak-minded and it's not my problem" stance? Because you are doing it again. You don't have any good ideas, do you?

"Free market"?!? WTF?

The "cash crop" reference is with regard to the value the 'victim class' has for those who have, for generations, convinced the victims they must vote for the one true peoples party.

As to this blacks are weak minded nonsense...I don't know where you get it from but it clearly wasn't me.
Are you projecting your own inner bigotry? Perhaps a bit of a freudian slip there?
Or just doing the typical playing-the-race-card-to-dodge-a-difficult-point routine?

You seem to still be dodging the challenge to your assertion that it is the people outside the black american sub-culture that are feeding their hopelessness. You want to deny their leaders, role models, parents and peers play a HUGE role in creating and maintaining that prison-of-the-mind they are trapped in.

And you think you are helping don't you? Lol.

Will Robinson wrote:The "cash crop" reference is with regard to the value the 'victim class' has for those who have, for generations, convinced the victims they must vote for the one true peoples party.

So offer them something better. Take those votes away. Got any good ideas or you just gonna complain?

Will Robinson wrote:As to this blacks are weak minded nonsense...I don't know where you get it from but it clearly wasn't me.

When you imply that blacks can be manipulated to be the victim class, you insult those blacks who bust their ass working for a better community and future for their children. African-American culture is extremely diverse.

Will Robinson wrote:You seem to still be dodging the challenge to your assertion that it is the people outside the black american sub-culture that are feeding their hopelessness. You want to deny their leaders, role models, parents and peers play a HUGE role in creating and maintaining that prison-of-the-mind they are trapped in.

The hopelessness comes from lack of support from people like you. People with no imaginations who can't offer ideas better than what the "race pimps" offer (as you like to call them).

How about this? How about working with the race pimps to make a better world? Find a common ground and new solutions. Empower the communities and let them do their thing. Temporarily decriminalize certain offenses in certain places. Lock in untouchable funding for schools and rehabilitation centers. Offer enticing tax breaks to major corporations who set up shop in troubled communities and put people to work. Invest heavily in programs that are so attractive that crime and violence become empty. Juxtapose culture and be open to radical changes. If the race pimps can make money on this while actually improving lives it will be worth it in the long run. I'm telling you it can be done within a generation.

Vision you have no idea what I have done, and will continue to do, to help black people rise up.
And the things I do I would never let the likes of Al Sharpton or Obama have a piece of it. And that's all they do is secure pieces for themselves.

The black community is diverse but not nearly as diverse as the country as a whole, otherwise we wouldn't have a need for this discussion, and in the urban environment it is even less so.
There is a lot of bad stuff at work to make that the way it is and my throwing it in the face of you guys who are so devoted to denying it is one small way of doing something about it.

I'm not complaining when I do it, I'm highlighting a problem for others to be aware of. You are just a prop in the presentation....unless you have an epiphany and become bold enough to challenge your own perspective with an open mind anyway.

You need me to be some complaining bigoted white guy who doesn't care because that makes it easier to ignore what I'm saying.
I know I care a great deal and back up those words with deeds all the time. I've made a difference in people's lives and seeing the pimps exploit those people pisses me off. That's why I rarely resist the urge to point out the crap some people pull here.

Will Robinson wrote:The black community is diverse but not nearly as diverse as the country as a whole...

I stopped reading here because you clearly have no idea. Get back to use when you have one.

Will Robinson wrote:Vision you have no idea what I have done, and will continue to do, to help black people rise up.

This is a golden opportunity to tell us what you have done for the community you speak of. I'm curious to see your accomplishments.

Ferno wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Vision you have no idea what I have done, and will continue to do, to help black people rise up.

This is a golden opportunity to tell us what you have done for the community you speak of. I'm curious to see your accomplishments.

I'm not going to list it. I couldn't possibly remember each act.
Here is one that stands out because the impact was greater than I had hoped.

In my neighborhood a guy came to my door and introduced himself to me, said he was working on my neighbors yard and wanted offer his services. at the time I had always done my own work but something told me to say yes so he began working in the yard once a week.

He was very disciplined in his work. I figured either ex military or really desperate to earn. He rode a moped to get to work and kept his mower and trimmer etc at a neighbors house.
He would ride 20 miles in the rain to show up on time even if it meant he wasn't going to be able to complete the job (mower doesn't do well in pouring rain). He would be out there pulling weeds in the rain and I couldn't convince him it was alright to postpone the job.

In conversation I learned he lost his license for failure to comply/pay tickets he recieved for driving while black. He chose jail time over paying the fines. He did his time and his license was revoked.

Based on his description of the event and the character he displayed at work I believed him. He told me it was a big mistake to resist. I was thinking he was probably right but I know I would have been there with him if I was black too.

Some months later he mentioned he was trying to get his license back and borrowed $350 dollars from me to pay the courts to get his 'right' to be licensed returned. He said he had to get a car so he could expand his business (transporting mower by moped wasn't working out).
He paid it back right on schedule.

Over the course of the next 6 months he borrowed money, a couple hundred at a time, to cover bumps in the road and each time he paid me back right on time. Sometimes riding that moped across town just to deliver it even though he would have seen me a few days later and I would have been fine with the delay. The guy has character to be admired.

So I asked him how the license thing was going and he said he was trying to save up for the insurance and down payment.

So I told him I wanted to help. I said I want to share some good fortune and to please not be offended because this wasn't charity. I told him he doesn't strike me as the kind of person that needs charity and it wasn't a loan because it isn't my business to decide for him when to get a car.

I had two work trucks we were using and was selling one to buy a new one for my service tech to use. The other I was selling to fund a down payment for a new truck for me to work out of. They were both in decent cosmetic shape and good well maintained mechanical condition.

So I gave him the better one of the work trucks, it was worth about $5000 quick sale maybe more.
It probably has another 50,000 miles left on it before any major problems will occur.

So now he has a decent looking and well running 3/4 ton GMC Sierra work truck with a Reading tool box body and he can show up on a job with what he needs and looking as professional as he actually is.

He was speechless and he didn't believe it was his when I signed the title and handed it to him. I think he trusted me but this was beyond what he is used to so I imagine he thought there was some strings attached.

Anyway he has adjusted to it and he is doing fine.
In fact he now works for me as an apprentice to my service tech (HVAC/R) and he has impressed him with his discipline and attitude.

I'm the one who has benefitted here in so many ways by meeting him even though he says it's the other way around.

That's the kind of thing I do to help. Right to the source.
I don't always spend that much, I can't afford to. I'm still driving the other older service truck instead of getting a new one for myself because of giving away what was going to be the down payment but it was worth it. I never liked the truck I'm in, even the day I bought it brand new, as much as I do now.

You can help black people, that’s ok…just don’t you dare suggest that they could be doing more to help themselves.

vision wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:The black community is diverse but not nearly as diverse as the country as a whole...

I stopped reading here because you clearly have no idea. Get back to use when you have one.

really. The man should come up my way for a visit. Tell that to the African American tech gurus and lawyers in my neighborhood, the college students down in Newark, the black farmers downstate, and ask them what commonality they share with the gang bangers and urban working poor up in the city. A very diverse community, and with every bit the diversity(maybe more) as any other American ethnic group.

Too bad Will wasn’t comparing ethic group to ethnic group, he was comparing a sub group to the larger group, and though it is really just stating the obvious, it is still a fact.

I don’t know what point Will was trying to make, but the counter as usual involves changing the parameters.

There are plenty of statistics to support the claim. The primary point was with regard to support for the one-true-peoples-party. Black people vote en-bloc at a far greater rate than any other sub group being pandered to.

If you want to look at crime stats, fatherless households, high school drop outs, families stuck generations deep in welfare, etc. etc. I'm sure we can find less diversity among the urban black population than the country as a whole in those catagories as well. But vision always looks for a way to dodge the point and slick wants him to succeed at it....what a wonderful support system to have. Someone who finds your willful ignorance useful. Oops! We just came full circle back to an example of the type of problem I originally alluded to! Someone who exploits the weakness of others by posing as a supporter for them...

Ferno wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Vision you have no idea what I have done, and will continue to do, to help black people rise up.

This is a golden opportunity to tell us what you have done for the community you speak of. I'm curious to see your accomplishments.

Now tell us yours.

Will Robinson wrote:I'm not going to list it. I couldn't possibly remember each act.

What a hero! So, you hired a black guy? Wow. Great job. News flash: You and I aren't so different. A black friend of mine ran into some financial trouble not too long ago (also related to automobiles, but no arrests or jail) and I gave him a couple grand as a gift, told him "pay me back when you can, or not, because I don't care about the money." So I guess we are both heroes of the black community, huh? Amazing. Who would have thought I could compete with the Great White Hope, Will Robinson? I guess this gives me bragging rights too. Well, it looks like there is no more to be done for African-Americans. I did my part and I can only give so much! Sorry all you hopeless blacks, you're on your own now.

jesus vision, you don't have to be such a douche.

I honestly thought what will did was very nice, and very commendable. A person who I usually disagree with was acting like a good human being.. And I thought maybe, just maybe it would be a good way to come together.

and you have to go and ★■◆● on him for it.

I said "good morning" to a black guy once.

We're a classy bunch, aren't we?

Next time on how the DBB helps black people: "I bought NBA tickets I didn't need." *applause*

I criticize the acts and motives of the self proclaimed 'leaders' of racial harmony. That makes me a bigot in visions eyes so nothing I've done to help anyone, nothing I've done to build a bridge between the races, etc. is going to be correct in his eyes.

But his reaction does serve as a good illustration for those who can think for themselves.

actually, let me say it here: what Will did WAS very nice, and generous. That doesn't address the societal issues herein though. The nation, as a whole needs something more all-encompassing.

callmeslick wrote:...That doesn't address the societal issues herein though. The nation, as a whole needs something more all-encompassing.

It wasn't offered as proof things are working fine now.

It was me being sick and tired of people like you and vision using dispicable tactics that require you to paint us as bigots because we dare challenge the status quo that empowers race baiting pimps at the expense of making the kind of improvements you claim to seek.