Taking a dump on the english language

For discussion of life's issues: current events, social trends and personal opinions.

Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250

Post Reply
User avatar
Tetrad
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 7585
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Taking a dump on the english language

Post by Tetrad »

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/ ... click=true
This literary masterpiece is looking a little battle-scarred. "Sing, goddess, of the accursed anger of Achilles, son of Peleus, which brought uncounted anguish on the Achaeans," Homer may have written in The Iliad. However Microsoft, the computer giant, prefers something less lyrical. "Wot hapnd when Agamemnon n Achilles had a barny?" it asks in a new version of The Iliad produced to appeal to the text message generation.

Its version has been criticised for trivialising one of the great works of European literature.

The "translation" of the first five of the 24 Iliad books condenses 37,000 words to 32 lines of mobile telephone text message language, with sad and smiley faces and love hearts.

In book three, a duel between Paris and Menelaus to determine possession of Helen, is reduced to: "Paris went 2 fight Menelaus. But he was wiv fright. Hector told im 2 b a man. Shame on him! Helen went 2 watch from da walls."

Book five, where mortals fight the gods in a Homeric narrative rich with visual detail and poetic invention, is compressed to: "Aeneas da Trojan hero woz hit by Diomedes n Aphrodite went 2 help im. Da Gods withdrew. Ares helped da Trojans but Athena helped Diomedes 2 spear im."

The Microsoft version was designed to explain the plot of the film Troy to the 6 million people who use the MSN Messenger instant messaging service, where it can be found. Trim Troy, the introduction says, allows youngsters to brush up on the classics.

Some teachers and traditionalists disagree, however, and have condemned the language as "appalling", "simplistic" and an "insult to young people's intelligence".

Andrew Cunningham, an English teacher at Charterhouse school in Surrey, said: "The whole point of studying great works of literature from any language or culture - whether it is The Iliad, Beowulf or the King James Bible - is to feel the words resonate over the centuries.

"This rendering of The Iliad into a blunt text message style will inspire no one. 'Muse, wot hapnd wiv Achilles?' is a fair example of just how bland the style is."

Some teachers argue, however, that text message language is a fact of life and makes The Iliad, thought to have been composed in the eighth century BC, more accessible to young people.

Geoffrey Fallows, the president of the Joint Association of Classical Teachers, said: "The Iliad is a complicated story that has difficult and unfamiliar names, so if you know a bit of it through the film or other versions, it will make so much more sense. The present generation communicates all day and all night in this peculiar speak and that is a fact of the modern world."
This is perfect, we are the last educated generation, the world is ours.

And in a similar vein: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... test_x.htm
Spelling bee protesters: "Enuf is enuf!"
By Carl Weiser, Gannett News Service
WASHINGTON â?? Protesters delivered a message Wednesday to the national spelling bee: Enuf is enuf!
Seven members of the American Literacy Society picketed the 77th annual spelling bee, which is sponsored every year by Cincinnati-based Scripps Howard.

The protesters' complaint: English spelling is illogical. And the national spelling bee only reinforces the crazy spellings that lead to dyslexia, high illiteracy, and harder lives for immigrants.

"We advocate the modernization of English spelling," said Pete Boardman, 58, of Groton, N.Y. The Cornell University bus driver admitted to being a terrible speller.

Protester Elizabeth Kuizenga, 56, is such a good speller she teaches English as a second language in San Francisco. She said she got involved in the protest after seeing how much time was wasted teaching spelling in her class.

Bee spokesman Mark Kroeger said good spelling comes from knowing the story behind a word â?? what language it comes from, what it means.

"For these kids who understand the root words, who understand the etymology, it's totally logical," he said.

The protesters contend that the illogical spelling of English words makes dyslexia more difficult to overcome and helps explain why one in five Americans are functionally illiterate.

"If these people were able to read and write with a simplified spelling system, they would be able to fill out a job application, stay employed, and stay out of prison," said Sanford Silverman, 86. The retired accountant from Cleveland was handing out copies of his book, "Spelling for the 21st Century: The case for spelling reform."

Carrying signs reading "I'm thru with through," "Spelling shuud be lojical," and "Spell different difrent," the protesters â?? who first protested two years ago, but skipped last year â?? drew chuckles from bee contestants.

"I can't believe people are picketing against something this ridiculous," said Steven Maheshwary, 14, of Houston, who successfully spelled "Zoroastrian" in the bee.

Or as 13-year-old contestant (tautologous) Rachel Karas of Flint, Mich., put it: "It's just spelling. You gotta learn it."
Granted, I do see some reason for wanting phonetic word spellings, but still.
User avatar
fliptw
DBB DemiGod
DBB DemiGod
Posts: 6459
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 1998 2:01 am
Location: Calgary Alberta Canada

Post by fliptw »

people would protest less against the spellings if the knew that english words are like 75% stolen from other languages.

which is probably a fact that none of the protestors are aware of.
User avatar
Krom
DBB Database Master
DBB Database Master
Posts: 16138
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 1998 3:01 am
Location: Camping the energy center. BTW, did you know you can have up to 100 characters in this location box?
Contact:

Post by Krom »

I find that whole thing very amusing for some reason.
User avatar
Beowulf
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

Post by Beowulf »

I think its outrageous. Just another example of people settling for mediocrity out of pure laziness. Can't anyone put effort into anything nowadays or all we all a bunch of fat as[spoiler][/spoiler]sholes sitting behind AIM watching MTV and eating Cheetos all day that we can't do anything but click a button and use Internet acronyms because we're too stupid to truly articulate anything of sense or meaning or depth? UGH!
User avatar
Zoop!
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1970
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 2:01 am

Post by Zoop! »

"we 2 lazzy. we undrstand this. ;)"

While you are at it, try to convince everyone else to stop being lazy. Tell people to stop eating at McDonald's and start cooking their own meals. Read the book instead of watching the movie. Don't just throw money at the problem, but get involved personally.

We've been getting lazy for awhile. Why does this surprise you? Good luck fixing this problem.
User avatar
Tetrad
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 7585
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Post by Tetrad »

See that's the thing, I don't understand how it can be about being lazy. Yes, if you're typing on a phone pad, nobody's going to care if you take a few shortcuts here in there. But for everything else, it doesn't make any sense. For one, it takes more effort to actually read that stuff than if it were typed normally. Second, and this really throws me off, if you're at a keyboard the time saved is pretty much negligable. Even if you haven't ever taken touch typing lessons most people have used a keyboard long enough to be able to slap out words relatively quickly.

So why do people think that trying to advance this particular method of communication is a good thing in any way, shape, or form?
Plebeian
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 3:01 am
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Contact:

Post by Plebeian »

I like how the arguments are based on Americans. "Oh, we can't spell anything right here, so the language is at fault!" We aren't the only ones speaking English, people! We're just the ones who are too lazy to do it right, so we hack it to bits, and complain about what's left. :roll: (And as mentioned, English has stolen so many of its words from other languages, the words you don't like may not even be originally ours!)

I don't care what the medium is, I'll be striving for proper grammar and spelling. Possibly if I'm in a time crunch and only have my phone I'll use fragments, but there's no way I'd be sending an email to work saying "i b in l8"....

And reducing a classic epic into a few lines of "txt msg"? Homer will be rising from his grave and bringing his undead ass over here to beat some sense into these people. :P It's an epic poem, and from over 2000 years ago, and wasn't even written in English (which at that time didn't exist anyway, not in it's modern form). Guess no more poetry should be read, because you have to think while you read it. And Americans' brains are full of as much fat as their bodies are.....

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Guess those of us who are actually intelligent should just move to another country, and let these poor bastards degenerate into vegetables. :lol:
User avatar
Krom
DBB Database Master
DBB Database Master
Posts: 16138
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 1998 3:01 am
Location: Camping the energy center. BTW, did you know you can have up to 100 characters in this location box?
Contact:

Post by Krom »

And if the smart people moved to other countries what would they find, a whole boatload of MORE STUPID PEOPLE! They are everywhere, there is no escape. Just in America everyone has more of a voice so you can hear more from stupid people.
User avatar
Testiculese
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4689
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 3:01 am

Post by Testiculese »

Testiculese wrote:My cumulative lack of respect for humanity just went up a notch.
User avatar
Wolf on Air
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1872
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 3:01 am
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Contact:

Post by Wolf on Air »

This really scares me.

Besides, something must be seriously mis-wired in the brains of people who actually find it logical reading "2" as "too", "4" as "for", etc...

Either that, or do these people actually sit and "mentally read aloud" all the time? What a tremendous waste of time. I don't, and English isn't even my native language! You've got to separate spoken words from written, people!

If I felt like being elitist, I would point to the fact I do have a higher IQ than average, learned reading very early (as compared to most), etc. But in this case I don't want to, because I think this is something everyone should be able to do, but that most are too damn lazy to learn properly.

And on the subject of mobile phone messaging; I write complete sentences with punctuation even there; T9 predictive typing goes a long way towards making this feasible even on a 12-keyed -board, though I guess most people are too lazy to figure out how it works...
Plebeian
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 3:01 am
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Contact:

Post by Plebeian »

Krom wrote:And if the smart people moved to other countries what would they find, a whole boatload of MORE STUPID PEOPLE! They are everywhere, there is no escape. Just in America everyone has more of a voice so you can hear more from stupid people.
Of course, but life is better when the stupid people just shut up and you don't have to waste precious time on them. ;)

Where's that Anti-Stupidity Ray when you need it?
User avatar
snoopy
DBB Benefactor
DBB Benefactor
Posts: 4435
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 1999 2:01 am

Post by snoopy »

I have horrible grammer, spelling, and word choice skills, and this stuff even bothers me. Any teen age kid these days can type decently, why insist on chopping stuff here and there so its impossible to read? The point of language is to facilitate communication, and Tet hit the nail on the head when he said that the stuff is a pain to read. So, this stuff makes it harder to communicate- why use it? I have no clue, but it bothers me to no end when I have to see it. Acronyms I don't mind, and shortening things like- but phonetic spellings that are just out of lazyness/a desire to be "cool" are stupid. All I gotta say is, I hope they get their butts handed to them in the form of an F if they try that stuff in school.
User avatar
Avder
DBB Material Defender
DBB Material Defender
Posts: 4926
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 1999 2:01 am
Location: Moorhead, MN

Post by Avder »

I dont consider spelling to be that big of a deal. Personally, I shoot for an accuracy percentage. If I'm not sure how a word is spelled, I qualify it, or if its cloe enough that someone would obviously know what itis without taking time to comprehend it, I just leave it.

I do wish people would learn the difference between your and you're tho.

And dont even get me started on ebonics, let alone this text messaging bullcrap....can you imagine ebonics compressed to text messaging? *shudders*
Vertigo
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2641
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Belgium

Post by Vertigo »

Wolf on Air wrote: And on the subject of mobile phone messaging; I write complete sentences with punctuation even there; T9 predictive typing goes a long way towards making this feasible even on a 12-keyed -board, though I guess most people are too lazy to figure out how it works...
Same here, it's actually more of a pain to use the shorter 'txtmsg-style' words with predictive typing enabled.

Also i find it striking that according to the 2nd article I must be a better speller than at least half of the americans out there, seeing that so much people seem to have problems with it... and English isn't my native language either. o_O
User avatar
Beowulf
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2878
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Denver, Colorado

Post by Beowulf »

Have any of you talked to Crown on Instant Messanger? ;)

But in all seriousness, this is so disrespectful to our language and to our intelligence. Language is what sets us apart from other creatures on this planet, and we're completely throwing that all away out of our own stupidity. I wish these people would just degenerate back into apes and communicate with grunts and leave meaningful works of literature alone. Internet acronyms are OK when you're in AOL, but anywhere else shouldn't be acceptable. It's ridiculous.

Maybe I'm just biased because I want to be a writer and words are everything...but to someone who appreciates language in both written and spoken form, this sort of thing is almost painful.
User avatar
Palzon
DBB Admiral
DBB Admiral
Posts: 1542
Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 2:01 am

Post by Palzon »

Testiculese wrote:
Testiculese wrote:My cumulative lack of respect for humanity just went up a notch.
I'm sure this will come i handy again later. You could pretty much make this your reply to all E&C posts :P
User avatar
Tricord
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 3394
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm

Post by Tricord »

If you want a language that reads just the way it sounds when spoken, learn italian.

The problem with abbreviations and neglected spelling is that it causes a snowball-effect. People will get sloppier and sloppier.

The french are known for isolating themselves from foreign influences when it comes to language. They have a very rich language with a lot of history, so they protect it as much as they can. However, technology has made people give up in a single generation what was kept with great care during many centuries.
I read a few french forums and it's absolutely horrible. French is even more illogic in the way that written words do not correspond at all with the phonetic notation. Plus, there are many accents, and the writing of a word may depend on the gender or multiplicity of another word. There are more tenses than in English as well, some only serving in written language.

People are just messing it all up. Nobody can properly spell any more. People no longer read books, either (except Harry Potter, then). 30 years ago, people were made to write properly, dyslexia or not. Nowadays, nobody seems to care. Official instances even adopted smilies and other typical technology-related slang. It's sad when I get a hand-written letter from a girl containing some smilie every other sentence...
Vertigo
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2641
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Belgium

Post by Vertigo »

Well actually a smiley in a personal note i can still understand, after all it's a great way of bringing over an emotion. Internet acronyms however...
User avatar
Lothar
DBB Ghost Admin
DBB Ghost Admin
Posts: 12133
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: I'm so glad to be home
Contact:

Post by Lothar »

LOL WTF? OMG HEH ROFL!
text message language ... makes The Iliad ... more accessible to young people
Can someone explain this to me? How does 32 lines of badly written text make an epic poem "accessible"? It's essentially a summary that's been mistyped. I could probably write a better 32-line summary of the Iliad during my lunch break, in plain English. Anyway, a summary does *not* make a work of literature accessible. A slightly condensed version, maybe -- but a summary? No way.

It *would* be funny to make it into a stick-figure flash cartoon, though. I think I've seen both Romeo and Juliet, and Hamlet, done that way, and both were hilarious.

Now, for those complaining about spelling... if they'd get off their "hukt on fonics werkt for me" kick and teach spelling based on word roots, not only would students learn to spell better, they'd also learn to communicate better. And for those who have trouble spelling when posting, hit "control-N" and type www.dictionary.com into the address bar of the new window. If you're not sure how to spell it (or you're not sure if you have the meaning right), take 30 seconds to check.
User avatar
snoopy
DBB Benefactor
DBB Benefactor
Posts: 4435
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 1999 2:01 am

Post by snoopy »

(That would be Lothar speaking to me.)

My girlfriend has yelled at me alot about messing up you're and your, and its and it's. I think I'm getting a little bit better about using the correct one. I think its really burns down to people not having good enough of an attention span (again, I'm speaking to myself here) to be able to stick with a full-length book long enough to get into it. People get bored and put books away before they manage to finish the first chapter- so they get the cliff notes and get the structure of the book, while forgetting the value in the content of the book, also.
User avatar
kurupt
DBB Fleet Admiral
DBB Fleet Admiral
Posts: 2506
Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 2:01 am
Location: Clinton, Ohio

Post by kurupt »

this story was so written for sanchez :P
User avatar
Tetrad
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 7585
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Dallas, TX

Post by Tetrad »

Plebeian wrote:I like how the arguments are based on Americans.
The first article is based in England. The SMS crowd is much larger over there it seems than over here. Americans would much rather just call somebody than type out SMS messages.
Plebeian
DBB Alumni
DBB Alumni
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 3:01 am
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Contact:

Post by Plebeian »

Tetrad wrote:
Plebeian wrote:I like how the arguments are based on Americans.
The first article is based in England. The SMS crowd is much larger over there it seems than over here. Americans would much rather just call somebody than type out SMS messages.
I mostly was referring to the second about spelling, but the SMS is pretty stupid, too. I would've expected it more from us than the Brits, even though we're still fairly new to the whole text messaging game. Surely there's an American behind it all somewhere, though. Our (bad) influence is everywhere, it spreads through the McDonalds. :twisted: :lol:
User avatar
Top Gun
DBB Master
DBB Master
Posts: 8099
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:01 am

Post by Top Gun »

There's an interesting book that just came out called Eats Shoots and Leaves. I don't recall the name of the author, but she basically is decrying how instant messaging and e-mail have contributed to a general ignorance of correct grammar and punctuation. I'm thinking of picking up a copy. By the way, the title comes from an incorrectly punctuated sign about a panda. Just add a few commas :P.
User avatar
Drakona
DBB Captain
DBB Captain
Posts: 841
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 1998 12:01 pm
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Contact:

Post by Drakona »

Those articles reminded me somewhat of Fahrenheit 451. Not to worry, though. There are culturally challenged people out there, but there are artists as well.
Post Reply