DescentBB

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:28 am**

.....todays big Conservative pile-on actually has substance. After giving a speech on how she would attack climate change, and push to renewable energies, etc, Ms. Clinton proceeded to fly off in a private jet that burns an obscene amount of jet fuel. This is a fair criticism, as she COULD have boarded a commercial flight, ameliorating the costs among a lot of passengers. You wouldn't see Bernie Sanders doing this. Now, it IS a bit disingenuous to hear the blatting from the same folks who DENY climate change, sell their souls to the Koch Industries folks, etc, but it is a fair example of why I(and some others in the Dem camp) find Hillary's candidacy less than ideal.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:07 pm**

callmeslick wrote:it IS a bit disingenuous to hear the blatting from the same folks who DENY climate change

No, it's not. Whether or not climate change is real, or carbon emissions have a significant effect, is immaterial to this particular criticism. The point of this criticism is that Hillary is saying "you need to change this behavior in this way" (and, AFAIK, pushing for legislation to force us ordinary folk into it) while simultaneously engaging in the opposite behavior. Of particular note, she didn't merely board a private jet, she boarded one of the least efficient private jets in its class!

It's just like, whether or not you personally believe the Bible is true, you can criticize someone for making Biblical arguments against same-sex marriage while also having an affair. The underlying truth or falsehood of the overall proposition is immaterial; what matters is that the person attempting to control other peoples' behavior isn't even controlling their own. So they don't have the credibility to make the argument in the first place.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:34 pm**

It's shallow criticism. It's like criticizing her for using "dark money" while campaigning for campaign finance reform.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:32 pm**

That sounds like typical ends justify the means.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 1:53 pm**

A better criticism is that she puts on the front of being part of and for the middle class in her speeches, then flies around in a private jet like the out-of-touch aristocrat she really is.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:27 pm**

tunnelcat wrote:A better criticism is that she puts on the front of being part of and for the middle class in her speeches, then flies around in a private jet like the out-of-touch aristocrat she really is.

therein lies my issue. The same speechmessage from Joe Biden, who famously travels by train whenever possible, amongst the constituents(and, nowadays, a cadre of secret service, no doubt) would count for more.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:05 pm**

Vander wrote:It's shallow criticism. It's like criticizing her for using "dark money" while campaigning for campaign finance reform.

So was it shallow when the automotive execs were criticized for using their corporate jets to fly to Washington and then made to drive automobiles for their next trip?

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:22 pm**

callmeslick wrote: Now, it IS a bit disingenuous to hear the blatting from the same folks who DENY climate change, sell their souls to the Koch Industries folks, etc, but it is a fair example of why I(and some others in the Dem camp) find Hillary's candidacy less than ideal.

So you wonder why people deny, looks like at least some scientists are pointing in the other direction.:

"Valentina Zharkova, a professor of mathematics at Northumbria University in the United Kingdom, used a new model of the sun's solar cycle, which is the periodic change in solar radiation, sunspots and other solar activity over a span of 11 years, to predict that "solar activity will fall by 60 percent during the 2030s to conditions last seen during the 'mini ice age' that began in 1645,"

"At the National Astronomy meeting in Llanduno, north Wales last week, Zharkova said that a series of solar phenomena will lead to a "Maunder Minimum," which refers to the seven decades, from 1645 to 1715, when the sun's surface ceased its heat-releasing magnetic storms and coincided with the Little Ice Age, a period of chillier temperatures, from around 1550 to 1850 in Europe, North America and Asia, according to NASA."

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:19 pm**

woodchip wrote:So was it shallow when the automotive execs were criticized for using their corporate jets to fly to Washington and then made to drive automobiles for their next trip?

Maybe. I don't know what you're referring to, but you seem to think it was shallow or misguided or whatever. If so, why would it be such in your circumstance but not in this one?

I'm not saying this criticism of Clinton is completely invalid, but it's basically chaff. It basically stakes the position that a candidate can't be a proponent of a green environmental policy without campaigning out of a solar powered organic hemp composite bus. (and I mean this generally. Not claiming Hillary's policies are green or whatever, I don't know)

Anyways, I think I need a shower after this Hillary defense.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:27 pm**

So what you are saying is…hypocrisy is not a big problem for you.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:53 pm**

woodchip wrote:
callmeslick wrote: Now, it IS a bit disingenuous to hear the blatting from the same folks who DENY climate change, sell their souls to the Koch Industries folks, etc, but it is a fair example of why I(and some others in the Dem camp) find Hillary's candidacy less than ideal.
So you wonder why people deny, looks like at least some scientists are pointing in the other direction.:

"Valentina Zharkova, a professor of mathematics at Northumbria University in the United Kingdom, used a new model of the sun's solar cycle, which is the periodic change in solar radiation, sunspots and other solar activity over a span of 11 years, to predict that "solar activity will fall by 60 percent during the 2030s to conditions last seen during the 'mini ice age' that began in 1645,"

"At the National Astronomy meeting in Llanduno, north Wales last week, Zharkova said that a series of solar phenomena will lead to a "Maunder Minimum," which refers to the seven decades, from 1645 to 1715, when the sun's surface ceased its heat-releasing magnetic storms and coincided with the Little Ice Age, a period of chillier temperatures, from around 1550 to 1850 in Europe, North America and Asia, according to NASA."

whee!! Another non-climate scientist with their two cents for the idiot fringe. That is why I don't go to my podiatrist to deal with cardiac issues.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:03 pm**

Vander wrote:It basically stakes the position that a candidate can't be a proponent of a green environmental policy without campaigning out of a solar powered organic hemp composite bus

I think that's overstating it by a huge amount.

If a candidate says "let's be green", and they fly commercial and drive a compact car and can point to practical steps they take in their everyday life to reduce environmental impact, I think almost everyone would be cool with that (there would, of course, be the occasional nutjob who criticized them for not being extreme enough.) Like slick said, if it was Joe Biden, who's known for environmentally sound practices, he'd be a much more credible speaker.

But when Hillary says "let's be green", we see the opposite pattern -- as far as anyone can tell, she makes no effort whatsoever to reduce her personal emissions. She didn't merely go fly after her speech; she went and flew on one of the least efficient private jets of its class. And this has, unfortunately, been the pattern for a lot of "green" conferences and speeches -- attendees traveling in limos and private jets to posh hotels, drinking imported bottled water and eating large amounts of beef and lighting up the stage with a million watts of spotlights. If they really believed the problem was as dire as they claim, wouldn't it affect their personal behavior?

Want a good spokesman for environmentalism? Look to farmers who have shifted to low-impact practices -- people who are actually living it. Get rid of Hillary entirely.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:04 pm**

Spidey wrote:So what you are saying is…hypocrisy is not a big problem for you.

It depends on the hypocrisy. Some I accept, some I don't. (how hypocritical!!1!) I accept that political candidates don't get to presently live in the future they propose.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:13 pm**

callmeslick wrote:
woodchip wrote: "Valentina Zharkova, a professor of mathematics at Northumbria University in the United Kingdom, used a new model of the sun's solar cycle...
whee!! Another non-climate scientist with their two cents for the idiot fringe. That is why I don't go to my podiatrist to deal with cardiac issues.

Dr. Zharkova has a PhD in Astrophysics, and is perfectly qualified to do the work she did on sunspots. Her paper actually says nothing about climate; it was others who read it and noticed the prior correlation to a mini-ice age who added in that speculation. Her model would account for a slight cooling effect, but not enough to counteract greenhouse gas warming.

So you're both wrong.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:27 pm**

Lothar wrote:I think that's overstating it by a huge amount.

Ya think?

Want a good spokesman for environmentalism?

Not really, no. I want a president with the inclination and ability to push the country toward sustainable clean energy. I don't know if Clinton is that person. But whether or not she rides a bike to work makes little difference in regards to her inclination and ability.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:39 pm**

Vander wrote:I want a president with the inclination and ability to push the country toward sustainable clean energy

In large part, that's a matter of getting people to buy in to the vision. And "you need to cut your carbon emissions" followed by boarding a gas-guzzling private jet doesn't sell that vision. It betrays it. It makes it come across as something other than genuine stewardship of the environment, and welcomes speculation as to ulterior motives (the "did someone at Solyndra bribe Obama?" game.) Without credibility, I don't think Hillary would be capable of getting significant energy legislation through Congress.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:41 pm**

those are fair enough points, Vander. I guess my issue is just the political wonk in me speaking........you need, especially in this day and age, to be able to project a consistent image if you are going to paint yourself as a woman/man of the people, and I just don't feel that Hillary is in a position to do so. Romney got absolutely destroyed because the Dems could easily paint him as an out of touch aristocrat. Sadly, Hillary can expect the same fate. Partly, because she just doesn't have the political chops her husband brought to the table. My nephew(age 36) saw him speak the other day and came away impressed at how in command of his audience he still is.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:06 pm**

Lothar wrote:And "you need to cut your carbon emissions" followed by boarding a gas-guzzling private jet doesn't sell that vision.

I'm not saying it's a good look. I don't know the first thing about the travel logistics of a presidential candidate. I kind of doubt Hillary personally went to the plane store and chose this specific plane. I could be wrong! In fact, I haven't read anything about what we're even talking about! This pressing hypocrisy hasn't made its way into my curated news bubble yet.

It's just kind of a Rorschach test. Would I be defending Jeb in similar circumstances? Probably not. But I also don't think I'd be ripping him for it either. I don't even like Clinton. I would harbor no sadness if she just disappeared. Perhaps I'm just being defensive because I'm probably going to have to vote for her next year to save us all from President Graham.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:13 pm**

Lothar wrote:
callmeslick wrote:
woodchip wrote: "Valentina Zharkova, a professor of mathematics at Northumbria University in the United Kingdom, used a new model of the sun's solar cycle...
whee!! Another non-climate scientist with their two cents for the idiot fringe. That is why I don't go to my podiatrist to deal with cardiac issues.
Dr. Zharkova has a PhD in Astrophysics, and is perfectly qualified to do the work she did on sunspots. Her paper actually says nothing about climate; it was others who read it and noticed the prior correlation to a mini-ice age who added in that speculation. Her model would account for a slight cooling effect, but not enough to counteract greenhouse gas warming.

So you're both wrong.

Yeah, I was gonna say. Both solar variations and greenhouse gases contribute to Earth's climate, but the existence of one doesn't magically preclude the other. If anything, that predicted cooling would only provide a temporary mitigation to the current warming trend. In case anyone missed it, the first six months of 2015 have been the hottest on record.

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:30 pm**

Not to mention that my home town has had its first tornado

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:39 pm**

Ferno wrote:Not to mention that my home town has had its first tornado

I heard that thing stayed on the ground for almost THREE HOURS!

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/manitoba-t ... -1.2490829

Posted: **Tue Jul 28, 2015 9:36 pm**

TC... o_0

Calgary is NOT in Manitoba.

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:36 am**

Vander wrote:...solar powered organic hemp composite bus.

First thing that popped into my head.

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:49 am**

image, people, it's about image:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companie ... ar-AAdEOZ1

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:21 pm**

Ferno wrote:TC... o_0

Calgary is NOT in Manitoba.

Oops, my mistake. I didn't make the disconnection between Calgary and Manitoba in the story. I'm not Canadian.

Calgary is a city IN Alberta. Manitoba is a whole province to itself that's on the other side of Saskatchewan to the east. But the fact that tornadoes still came to ground in Canada, far north of their usual destructive haunts in the U.S. mid west is damn scary.

Posted: **Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:31 pm**

vision wrote:
Vander wrote:...solar powered organic hemp composite bus.
First thing that popped into my head.

Actually, Henry Ford beat Cheech and Chong to it. A 1941 Ford car composed of 10% hemp body panels.

http://theangryhistorian.blogspot.com/2 ... usted.html

callmeslick wrote:image, people, it's about image:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companie ... ar-AAdEOZ1

She makes John Edwards look like a cheap piker.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18157456/ns/p ... tty-penny/

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:01 am**

Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:53 pm**

Heaven forbid she get a crappy haircut at Supercuts, or eat a pizza with her lowly fingers, at least once in awhile. She claims she's in support of the common, middle class person, but she would never stoop to doing those plebeian common person things. She's a fake who's used to being treated like a queen. Give me Webb or Sanders any day.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:38 pm**

Vander wrote:Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.

she should avoid those cheezwhiz places altogether. For a real cheesesteak, she needs to go uptown to Chubby's in Roxborough.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:48 pm**

Vander wrote:Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.

Heaven forbid she forgets to put a marine guard at the Benghazi embassy....oh wait.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:26 pm**

callmeslick wrote:
Vander wrote:Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.
she should avoid those cheezwhiz places altogether. For a real cheesesteak, she needs to go uptown to Chubby's in Roxborough.

Maybe she doesn't want to have a heart attack after eating one of those? Just looking at one of those sandwiches clogs the arteries.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:31 pm**

ahhh, but they TASTE so good........my cardiologist is pleased that I moved a ways away from the heart of cheesesteak country.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:31 pm**

woodchip wrote:
Vander wrote:Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.
Heaven forbid she forgets to put a marine guard at the Benghazi embassy....oh wait.

Heaven forbid Reagan's Benghazis besmirches his legacy.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /cron.html

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/05/09 ... ervicemen/

Or that we should sweep under the rug Bush's 13 Benghazis.

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/05/13-be ... -fox-news/

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/01/milita ... -and-bush/

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:33 pm**

woodchip wrote:
Vander wrote:Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.
Heaven forbid she forgets to put a marine guard at the Benghazi embassy....oh wait.

we never HAD an embassy in Bengazi, but you knew that, right?

you know, on the audio enthusiast board, we have an emoticon for beating a dead horse. We could use that here......

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:33 pm**

tunnelcat wrote:She claims she's in support of the common, middle class person, but she would never stoop to doing those plebeian common person things.

But what is the correlation between supporting the common, middle class person and getting a haircut at supercuts? Why anyone would hold her proclivity to get pizza grease on her well manicured fingers as proof of her support for middle class issues is beyond me.

She hasn't been a "woman of the people" for 30 years. I think any expectation that she be forced to pretend otherwise is, frankly, ridiculous. The only thing that really matters are the policies and priorities she proposes, and the likelihood of the ability to follow through if elected. Of course, this thinking is at odds with the reality of the situation where voters have to identify with candidates, so they can project their own beliefs onto these people they don't know and will never meet.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:43 pm**

Vander wrote:
tunnelcat wrote:She claims she's in support of the common, middle class person, but she would never stoop to doing those plebeian common person things.
But what is the correlation between supporting the common, middle class person and getting a haircut at supercuts? Why anyone would hold her proclivity to get pizza grease on her well manicured fingers as proof of her support for middle class issues is beyond me.

She hasn't been a "woman of the people" for 30 years. I think any expectation that she be forced to pretend otherwise is, frankly, ridiculous. The only thing that really matters are the policies and priorities she proposes, and the likelihood of the ability to follow through if elected. Of course, this thinking is at odds with the reality of the situation where voters have to identify with candidates, so they can project their own beliefs onto these people they don't know and will never meet.

One word, Bill. He was already president. He's still around and can't resist politics and he'll tag along with his wife like a happy puppy, so it's time for someone else, someone new to take the helm. Plus the fact she hasn't been a "woman of the people for 30 years" is just another reason to make a change. She represents what's wrong in Washington, a stagnant and repetitive condition that keeps persisting. All I know is that either Trump or Sanders would really shake up the status quo and Washington needs a good shakeout. However, I'm not for Trump one wit.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:36 pm**

callmeslick wrote:you know, on the audio enthusiast board, we have an emoticon for beating a dead horse. We could use that here......

Provide a link to the image and it will be added to the DBB.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:47 pm**

callmeslick wrote:you know, on the audio enthusiast board, we have an emoticon for beating a dead horse. We could use that here......

I hope it's the banhammer.

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:53 pm**

Krom, check your PMs

Posted: **Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:07 pm**

callmeslick wrote:
woodchip wrote:
Vander wrote:Heaven forbid Hillary eat pizza with a knife and fork, or do something really bad like order a cheesesteak without cheezwhiz.
Heaven forbid she forgets to put a marine guard at the Benghazi embassy....oh wait.
we never HAD an embassy in Bengazi, but you knew that, right?

You do understand a diplomatic compound is a extension of the Embassy and thus warrants a security detail?

you know, on the audio enthusiast board, we have an emoticon for beating a dead horse. We could use that here......

DescentBB

A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton

Re: A fair criticism of Hillary Clinton