Poor ol' Bernie

[Nightshade]

He was harassed by the very people he would be 'helping' if he were elected:

Bernie Sanders came to Seattle on Saturday with plans to give two speeches.

The first didn’t happen. An appearance by the senator from Vermont at an event celebrating the anniversary of Social Security and Medicare was scuttled after protesters from a local Black Lives Matter chapter took over the stage.

Hours later, Sanders, who has been drawing bigger crowds than any other presidential contender, drew his largest yet: about 15,000 at the college basketball arena where the Washington Huskies play.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post ... rotesters/

[callmeslick]

it is ironic to see a group, supposedly focused on civil rights, assailing some white Jewish guy from Vermont who risked his life down south fighting for those rights in the 60s. This is more evidence of what I regularly upbraid left leaning folks about. They have a tendency, as do the extreme right wing types, to demand absolute adherence to every detail of their chosen agenda. Bernie is correct in his stance that most everything boils down to the economics of prosperity for individuals, and that buzz-phrases like 'Black Lives Matter' add little to the real issues at hand.

[Spidey]

I can see how black people have other concerns than raising the minimum wage, seeing how they will take the brunt of the displacement that will take place when a lot of crappy jobs are transformed into good jobs.

(historical fact, when you transform a crap job into a good job people are displaced from those jobs, see history 101 the unionizing of America)

[callmeslick]

I can see how black people have other concerns than raising the minimum wage, seeing how they will take the brunt of the displacement that will take place when a lot of crappy jobs are transformed into good jobs.

(historical fact, when you transform a crap job into a good job people are displaced from those jobs, see history 101 the unionizing of America)

re-read your history. Unionization didn't displace a damn soul, greed did.

[Spidey]

You're probably referring to a different displacement than I am.

[callmeslick]

feel free to elaborate what you are talking about. My comment was an overall assessment of the unionization of the nation from 1880-1960

[Spidey]

So what you are saying is the displacement of black workers by whites after crap jobs became good jobs, was a result of greed…well I can’t really argue with that, because greed is the underlying principle behind many things that have happened over the years.

But it doesn’t change the basic fact that when you create good jobs from crap jobs, they become in demand.

[Lothar]

here's Thomas Sowell on raising the minimum wage: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... ol-housing

(also touches on rent control and overseas investing, two topics that have been brought up in other threads in the last 24 hours.)

[Tunnelcat]

So what you are saying is the displacement of black workers by whites after crap jobs became good jobs, was a result of greed…well I can’t really argue with that, because greed is the underlying principle behind many things that have happened over the years.

But it doesn’t change the basic fact that when you create good jobs from crap jobs, they become in demand.

It's more complicated than that. In fact, many labor unions, especially the AFL craft unions, were at first racist and exclusive to blacks. Employers often used this fact in the early part of the 1900's and pitted blacks against whites in order to break unionization attempts and get cheap labor. During the 1930's, the CIO saw that this tactic was self defeating for labor and began to welcome blacks into the fold in solidarity, all to make the playing field more level. Blacks even formed their own unions, especially the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters, all to get fair wages. African American workers that are part of a union enjoy 35% higher wages than those who are not members of a union. Unions in the end have helped race relations far more than they've hurt.

http://www.shmoop.com/history-labor-unions/race.html

[Spidey]

Good read, but it misses the broader point of how individuals affected the market.

[Tunnelcat]

It missed it because of those who were the ones who really DID affect the market, Mexican immigrants. They work for less wages and far more hours than either a comparable black or white worker. In other words, they don't complain about it because they can't. They're illegal citizens. I'm seeing Latinos in jobs that were formerly held by white men and were typically bastions of union apprenticeships, construction and trade jobs, especially in house and commercial building construction. You can bet your bottom dollar that they aren't paid nearly as much as the former white workers used to be. Labor arbitrage. Employers can't resist the temptation.

[Spidey]

STOP…your kinda making my point, why should I hire a young person or an undesirable* (black) at 32,000 a year when I can hire one of those middle aged white workers that will be returning to the market in droves.

*Context

Why would I replace my older overpaid workers with nice young workers if I have to pay them 32,000 a year, to start with little or no experience. (without the pay differential there is no economic incentive)

The list goes on...

[Tunnelcat]

That's my kind of sideways point. As commerce goes nowadays, we're ALL racing towards the same denominator, THE BOTTOM, at least for labor wages and low consumer prices. Why? Why is cheap good? It's wasteful. Why is paying labor cheaper and cheaper wages good? It creates resentment, hostility and poor productivity. Why do CEO's and other top company leaders deserve exorbitant salaries and golden parachutes, that percentage wise, have skyrocketed far above their previous levels in the past, even more than inflation, while the labor force and consumer goods race to the bottom in both wages and prices and continue to stagnate? What good it that for the nation and society to have such a disparity? It's not stable either.

[callmeslick]

So what you are saying is the displacement of black workers by whites after crap jobs became good jobs, was a result of greed…well I can’t really argue with that, because greed is the underlying principle behind many things that have happened over the years.

But it doesn’t change the basic fact that when you create good jobs from crap jobs, they become in demand.

what is wrong with that? Are you suggesting that we need to maintain a certain level of 'crap' jobs? That would be the agriculture sector, as it currently stands, and see how that works?

[Spidey]

Frankly…I’m not suggesting anything, I’m just pointing out facts, I wish I did have all of the answers, but I don’t, so my only real option is to keep pointing out that stubborn little thing called unintended consequences.

Instead of going into denial mode when someone points out these kinds of things, you come up with a solution instead, or simply accept the truth, and understand that there is always some bad, with the good.

[callmeslick]

Frankly…I’m not suggesting anything, I’m just pointing out facts, I wish I did have all of the answers, but I don’t, so my only real option is to keep pointing out that stubborn little thing called unintended consequences.

Instead of going into denial mode when someone points out these kinds of things, you come up with a solution instead, or simply accept the truth, and understand that there is always some bad, with the good.

I guess that last part is, essentially, my standard position, with the caveat that we always try our best to make the good vastly outweigh the bad.

[callmeslick]

I'm starting to see the Obama effect more and more with Bernie's campaign. They've learned some lessons. 20,000 in Portland yesterday?
To date, Hillary's biggest crowd has been around 5500, and that was at a heavily staged and prepped first announcement event. If I was in her camp, Bernie would scare the crap out of me, and the thought of Biden cutting into my more moderate support would make it ten times worse.

[Tunnelcat]

Remember slick, Portland is very liberal. Sanders is speaking to the choir there.

[callmeslick]

yes, but for primary purposes, that is supposed to be Hillary's choir.

[Tunnelcat]

She's supposed to come to Portland sometime later I heard. It'll be interesting to see if she draws anywhere near that crowd size. Probably not. She's not liked here quite as much.

[woodchip]

Hillary has created her own vortex which is sucking her ever downwards. Fake accents when speaking and being out of touch with the voters is not helping her cause.