DescentBB

So I was watching that Democratic debate last night…

Uncle Bernie wants to get rid of all fracking.
Applause ensues…
But I bet half of the audience doesn’t even know what fracking even is, and the half that do have no clue what that would do to energy costs.

Uncle Bernie wants to tax Wall Street speculation.
Applause ensues…
Of course nobody in the audience understands that they will be the ones paying that tax.

Uncle Bernie wants to raise the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour.
Applause ensues…
But he fails to tell people raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks will simply shift costs from the tax payer to the consumer. (based on how many low wage earners receive government subsidies) And yes…the taxpayer and the consumer are one and the same person…you.

So…I could go on, but I think I have made my point…that being…it’s what a politician doesn’t tell you…that you have to watch out for.

Spidey wrote:So I was watching that Democratic debate last night…

Uncle Bernie wants to get rid of all fracking.
Applause ensues…
But I bet half of the audience doesn’t even know what fracking even is, and the half that do have no clue what that would do to energy costs.

I do, on both counts, and you are way over-estimating the benefits to our costs. Frankly, I've seen no substantial yield of either NG or oil that could POSSIBLY justify causing earthquakes, putting methane into the water table, and causing the nation to delay coming to grips with the post-petroleum energy world. NOTHING.

Uncle Bernie wants to tax Wall Street speculation.
Applause ensues…
Of course nobody in the audience understands that they will be the ones paying that tax.

explain how so.

Uncle Bernie wants to raise the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour.
Applause ensues…
But he fails to tell people raising the minimum wage to 15 bucks will simply shift costs from the tax payer to the consumer. (based on how many low wage earners receive government subsidies) And yes…the taxpayer and the consumer are one and the same person…you.

except that raising the minimum wage has been demonstrated to have no such effect of significant levels, and still reduce government outlays for food and other benefits. I, personally, would prefer a flat $12-13 per hour minimum to allow for costs of living in many rural communities, but that can be settled in Congress.

So…I could go on, but I think I have made my point…that being…it’s what a politician doesn’t tell you…that you have to watch out for.

you conveniently leave out that Bernie's program at least has definitions, at each stage, how things will be paid for without deficit spending. Go find me anything close for the rest of the candidates.

worth mentioning, I suppose, is that I refused to move to the Sanders camp with my wallet until I was assured that Sanders had decided to call for a complete moratorium on fracking.It is an important issue to me. He is calling, on the stump, for an end to fracking, but that isn't going to happen overnight. I'd spoken on here about my involvement in both the movement to VERY strictly regulate pipelines and rail transport of oil and gas, along with investigation of ALL environmental effects both short and long term, of hydraulic fracture techniques, which grew out of my love of the outdoors, seeing the rape of the land by these people and attending shareholder meetings and hearing the industry side of matters. Maybe, Spidey, you were right......not enough people know the details, but that cuts BOTH ways. How many people realize that Oklahoma has more earthquakes than California. Interestingly, the voters in Oklahoma had no problem giving Bernie a 2-1 victory iin the primary.

give 'Uncle Bernie' time......he might just get enough people to listen to this VERY simple explanation of his principles driving the campaign. If so, look out. These are the points that are behind the malaise that has driven some people to Trump, and that is precisely why Bernie would beat Trump, head to head, like a cheap drum.

https://www.facebook.com/dailykos/video ... 5/?fref=nf

How the hell can I be “overestimating” the affects on energy costs, when I gave no specifics?

And if you don’t understand how costs like taxes are passed on to consumers, there is no point explaining.

And yes, raising the minimum has no significant levels of inflation, but that wasn’t really my point…now was it.

And sure Uncle Bernie has plans on how to pay for everything he is proposing, but I didn’t even bring up those things that are going to have to be paid for...like free college and stuff. I'll leave that crap to someone else.

Spidey wrote:How the hell can I be “overestimating” the affects on energy costs, when I gave no specifics?

what a weasely cop out. I expect better from you. I suppose you tossed out " half that do have no clue what that would do to energy costs." thinking that the overall effect was minimal, right?

And if you don’t understand how costs like taxes are passed on to consumers, there is no point explaining.

I understand in many cases, but asked you, SPECIFICALLY, to explain to us slow-wits how Bernies tax proposal on Wall Street trading will translate into increases to consumers. Please, feel free to give it a try, because the above response is weasel-word cop out #2 in this post.

And yes, raising the minimum has no significant levels of inflation, but that wasn’t really my point…now was it.

so, how, again, does the cost savings get passed along, to any correlated extent, to consumers. Data has shown it does not.

And sure Uncle Bernie has plans on how to pay for everything he is proposing, but I didn’t even bring up those things that are going to have to be paid for...like free college and stuff. I'll leave that crap to someone else.

both are clearly budgeted. Today, the Navy put forth an aircraft carrier with a 19 billion dollar price tag. We have plenty of money for a few of those, right? Give me free college for all before ONE of them hits the building docks.

Slick instead of opening your wallet to Bernie, open it to project overload to get it to fund 100%. Lots of peeps here would love you long time.

No, actually I’m sure the costs would rise, but I’m not an expert, so I really have no idea just how much. But I’m sure your entourage of fishing buddies can tell you.

The point being that they will RISE.

As far as the passing on costs to the consumer, you really need that explained?

All costs are passed on the consumer in the exact same way…PRICES

All line item costs that a business see are passed on the consumer…that’s how business works, taxes are nothing more than a line item cost, just like the rest.

Damn, I feel silly having to explain that one.

And JFTR, he said nothing about “trading” he specifically said “speculation”.

Trouble is Spidey, the wealth inequality in this country has been growing exponentially. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and the middle class is vanishing. How do we fix the problem of stagnating wages for the lower class workers? They can't live on the current minimum wage. The money has got to come from somewhere. The poor seem to be caught in a death spiral while the wealthy sit on their cash.

Well I will tell you this much....gimmicks won't work.

And I have no time or patience to get into my basic economic theories. sorry

Well, since our economy is now global, there may not be a solution that pleases everyone. We're competing with countries that have a considerably lower standard of living than we do and Americans just can't fathom living in what we consider a substandard standard of living. You're going to have a constant push for higher wages because housing and food are high priced, relatively speaking.

I’m am a complete advocate for rising wages, I just don’t buy into the idea that the minimum wage will give people more money, because most people at lower wages are getting some kind of government benefits that bring their adjusted income to at least the 15 dollar range.

My point was the minimum wage simply moves the cost from the taxpayer to the consumer, but without any real gains in income.

Just take any example…

Let’s look at one of my neighbors, she makes about 8 bucks an hour, but receives about 1000 dollars a month in section 8 subsidies, if she had her wages raised to 15 bucks an hour she would lose her benefits, and may actually be in worse shape than before. (she also receives other subsidies)

That's why I call it a gimmick, and believe it could do more harm than good.

woodchip wrote:Slick instead of opening your wallet to Bernie, open it to project overload to get it to fund 100%. Lots of peeps here would love you long time.

well, googling project overload got me a whole lot of nothing, so if it's some sort of inside joke, I don't get it. If you have some serious concern, PM me. This is the month in which 90% of my charitable giving for the year is determined, and I'd give it a look. I like being loved. Observe my conduct here, for instance.

You should try the PTMC Cafe forum :

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22702

callmeslick wrote:well, googling project overload got me a whole lot of nothing, so if it's some sort of inside joke, I don't get it.

WTF SLICK THIS IS A DESCENT FORUM YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS.

Get your head out of politics and into the game.

Looks like we won't need his help. Funded.

woodchip wrote:Looks like we won't need his help. Funded.

good for you all!

Oh, and this video from 1964 is making the rounds. Sound relevant?
https://www.facebook.com/quartznews/vid ... 3/?fref=nf

woodchip wrote:Looks like we won't need his help. Funded.

Thank God. There was so much stuff going on right now with family matters that I never had the time to go purchase a pre-paid VISA card to pledge my backing. Can you still send in funds after they've reached their goal?

callmeslick wrote:Oh, and this video from 1964 is making the rounds. Sound relevant?
https://www.facebook.com/quartznews/vid ... 3/?fref=nf

And somehow we still ended up with a racist president and a horrible war.

Spidey wrote:

callmeslick wrote:Oh, and this video from 1964 is making the rounds. Sound relevant?
https://www.facebook.com/quartznews/vid ... 3/?fref=nf

And somehow we still ended up with a racist president and a horrible war.

but, nobody got nuked and we passed the Civil Rights act. It's all a matter of balance and compromise.