DescentBB

It looks like something out of a movie. A crowd of lock-step Trump zombies is confronted with someone that isn't afraid to talk to them and is ready to answer the propaganda from their demagogue-in-chief.

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I don't think Trump would have similar courage to do anything like this.

Ted destroyed them. Kudos to him.

Ted started getting a little ticked off by the whole exchange IMO. I'll give him kudos for sticking around and standing his ground, for all the good it probably did him in Indiana anyway. He's probably toast.

I'm not impressed.

tunnelcat wrote:Ted started getting a little ticked off by the whole exchange IMO. I'll give him kudos for sticking around and standing his ground, for all the good it probably did him in Indiana anyway. He's probably toast.

It shows how brain dead these losers are... People like this shouldn't be able to vote.

I think the guy was at least smart enough to know that Cruz wasn't actually engaging him... something you folks seem to have missed.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I think the guy was at least smart enough to know that Cruz wasn't actually engaging him... something you folks seem to have missed.

Well, get ready to greet your new president- Hillary Clinton...because I sure as hell am not voting for Trump.

Most true conservative republicans are disgusted by Trump and will stay home as well.

A little bit of an odd response. But I'm pretty well convinced Trump is going to take it.

EDIT: I'll go a step further, TB--I think you will vote for Trump.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:EDIT: I'll go a step further, TB--I think you will vote for Trump.

HAHAHAHA

You want to make a bet? $1,000 too much to bet on the assertion that *I* will vote for Trump?

But... Hillary. You don't want Hillary, do you?

Vander wrote:But... Hillary. You don't want Hillary, do you?

Do you?

I think $1000 is potentially a pretty outstanding offer for any single vote in the US, so no, I wouldn't bet. I doubt that you dislike Trump as much as you dislike Hillary. I think Ted Cruz fans/GOPers have just gotten themselves really worked up, and as time goes on reality will set in.

Nightshade wrote:Do you?

I'm a liberal. I never get to vote for who I want. I vote against who I don't want.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I think $1000 is potentially a pretty outstanding offer for any single vote in the US, so no, I wouldn't bet. I doubt that you dislike Trump as much as you dislike Hillary. I think Ted Cruz fans/GOPers have just gotten themselves really worked up, and as time goes on reality will set in.

The reality is...I'm staying home on election day. There's your reality.

Trump and Hillary are equally repugnant. There is no 'lesser evil' in this upcoming election. A third party candidate would be meaningless to vote for anyway...so yeah, I'm staying home.

Ya'll deserve what you get.

Vander wrote:

Nightshade wrote:Do you?

I'm a liberal. I never get to vote for who I want. I vote against who I don't want.

You're going to vote yourself into Venezuela because that's where this country is heading.

I'm not going to say Trump isn't repugnant in certain regards, but "equally repugnant" speaks to some very unique methods of comparison (and too many campaign ads). I don't think I have any illusions about what a Trump presidency means for America in an absolute sense, but in a relative sense it brings a great big smile to my face.

*High five*, TC. Cruz isn't the Republican nominee.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I'm not going to say Trump isn't repugnant in certain regards, but "equally repugnant" speaks to some very unique methods of comparison (and too many campaign ads). I don't think I have any illusions about what a Trump presidency means for America in an absolute sense, but in a relative sense it brings a great big smile to my face.

*High five*, TC. Cruz isn't the Republican nominee.

This is what is going to happen: http://www.cnn.com/specials/politics/predict

I was approached last week by a moderate Republican trying to drum up a 'national unity' ticket. There are going to be a LOT of Republicans who want no part of Trump. The right wingers get that Trump is running to the Left of Hillary.

Nightshade wrote:

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I think the guy was at least smart enough to know that Cruz wasn't actually engaging him... something you folks seem to have missed.

Well, get ready to greet your new president- Hillary Clinton...because I sure as hell am not voting for Trump.

Most true conservative republicans are disgusted by Trump and will stay home as well.

So as a "true" conservative you would rather have Hillary Clinton voted in. Sounds logical to me

callmeslick wrote:I was approached last week by a moderate Republican trying to drum up a 'national unity' ticket. There are going to be a LOT of Republicans who want no part of Trump. The right wingers get that Trump is running to the Left of Hillary.

So the talking points you get from your Dem masters is now to say Trump is left of Hillary. And no, the right wingers do not "get" Trump is left of Hillary. They "get" the last person they want to see in the White House is Hillary and the rapist Bill.

Yeah, because CNN knows what the ★■◆● is going on. Not even clicking the link.

woodchip wrote: So the talking points you get from your Dem masters is now to say Trump is left of Hillary. And no, the right wingers do not "get" Trump is left of Hillary. They "get" the last person they want to see in the White House is Hillary and the rapist Bill.

hell, no, most Dem party troops aren't going to EVER claim that Trump is running to HIllary's left. I do, however, and am completely convinced after his first policy speech(international, last week). Certainly, his approach to foreign policy, for all intents isolationist and loudly eschewing war as a waste of national treasure better used for the public good. Now, on social issues, it's hit or miss, but Trump did speak fairly well of Planned Parenthood, I suspect will immediately legalize, license and tax marijuana, doesn't seem to very Biblical in his approach to life or politics, etc.
Now, what I expect HIllary to do, even before putting Bernie away for good, is two things: She's going to make a VERY hard pitch to moderate, old school Republicans around international threats and the reliable hand on the nuke codes. Like that or not, Woody, you are very likely to see a dozen or more very prominent Republicans come over publicly to Ms Clinton on the grounds of the 'good of the nation'. If that happens, a floodgate is open. That will require the second thing I expect from her: a round of serious negotiation with the Sanders camp for party unity, and some platform tradeoffs. Until yesterday, her crew had been reportedly hardline about that, but they clearly need the Sanders folks in the tent. Balancing those two outreaches without losing one or the other badly would, if nothing else, show that she possesses SOME of the skillset the job requires.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I doubt that you dislike Trump as much as you dislike Hillary. I think Ted Cruz fans/GOPers have just gotten themselves really worked up, and as time goes on reality will set in.

My prediction is the same, except instead of reality setting in, I will attribute conservatives voting for Trump to a well-funded propaganda campaign appealing to wedge issues and the fallacious premise of "lesser of two evils."

Nightshade wrote:Trump and Hillary are equally repugnant. There is no 'lesser evil' in this upcoming election. A third party candidate would be meaningless to vote for anyway...so yeah, I'm staying home.

If voting for a third party is meaningless, then so is voting in Texas for any president for as far back as I can remember because Texas has been so red that voting for a democrat or even a republican is just as meaningless and unlikely to change the outcome for that state. According to this way of thinking, unless you live in Ohio or Florida, then your vote for president is meaningless.

That conclusion is of course absurd, and so the premise that voting is meaningful only if your vote has a likely chance to change an election is also absurd. Voting isn't just about changing election outcomes. It's also about sending a message. In addition to determining who is elected into office, voting also serves as an enormously popular opinion poll that everyone will be reading about the next day, including those who are in and wish to remain in office. If someone asked you to take a poll for your favorite flavor of ice cream, you wouldn't abstain from voting just because Rocky Road is unlikely to be the most popular. Voting is used to send a message to your representatives about who their constituents are and what their values are, regardless of who wins.

That's not to say that refusing to vote doesn't also send a message. But voting third party sends a much more powerful one.

I think that's all well put, Jeff250.

The "reality" I was referring to is two-fold. Trump's character has been the object of a great many assassination attempts thus-far in the GOP primary. I think a lot of it is blown out of proportion, hypocritical in the grand scheme of things, or doesn't apply like people claim it does. So the reality of Trump's intentions and character is one aspect of it. The second aspect of this reality is that a lot of people in the GOP specifically don't want a Hillary presidency, and they had this strong desire woven in with their Cruz support. Well it now has to be separated from Cruz (or any other candidate in the primary). Your "well-funded" campaign ads will probably come, though it remains to be seen how much of it can truthfully be classified as "propaganda". However, the reality is that a lot of motivators are already in place for the GOP to back Trump. They're just going to have to swallow their own hypocrisy, and warm up to a candidate who isn't a blissful combination of their own pastor and George Washington.

The Cruz campaign was about creating an ideal evangelical image for people to cozy up to while he sold this country down the same road that our last several presidents have. In the end Cruz is just a false prophet (he claimed God for his campaign) with ties to entrenched political interests. I see his failure as a very positive thing for this country, even if the sum-total still swings a little negative for people who believe in fairy-tales.

Thorne, I suspect you will see, and rather soon, that the attacks upon Trump's character, past records and business dealings during the GOP primary were oddly weak and timid. The reaction from the press seems similar, and might be driven by ratings and profits. However, anyone who has lived in the East, especially anyone who has followed the New York press over the past several decades KNOWS there is some REALLY serious stuff out there. Racism, discrimination, union busting, mafia ties, dirty political payoffs, bribery and offshore monies, along with a 4 decade long pattern of bullying, lying and double-dealing. Between his determination to toss dirt and HIllary, and the deep pockets of her PACs and the anti-Trump background money, this should be a doozy by November. Who knows, maybe we'll just all feel most comfortable with that guy who is promising everyone a pony(Vermin Supreme or some such?).

Slick, I don't know if you're actually naive enough to consider personal wrongs to even be on a comparable scale with what the American government has done and is doing to its people and to the people's of other countries. I'm not. That rings very hollow to me. The status-quo in our government, and its impact on the people of this country and others, in my eyes, is far more damning than anything Trump has done, on a moral scale.

We are not electing a personality, we are electing someone for their will to carry out the way we want things to be done with regard to our country. Trump strikes me as a man who will do what he says, and says what he will do, not because he is a saint and we should trust in his honest character (which is always a bull**** claim in politics), but because it's a matter of personal pride--a businessman is nothing if his word means nothing.

Preemptive Response: "Bull****" (saves time)

it is, Thorne, precisely that we are not electing an empty personality with zero clue what he/she is doing, that I'd have to reluctantly support Hillary. Trump is clearly unprepared, moreover unwilling to grow and learn and has NEVER shown the capacity to accept true partnerships of the nature that running a nation requires. The things I was alluding to above speak to character and judgement and those are far past personality issues. Hillary has a ton of baggage in the judgement and character departments, too, which makes this a particularly dim choice, should matters stand, but is head and shoulders above Trump in both gravitas and insight into the nature of the job.

as to Trumps 'word'......feel free to ask any major US bank how much Donald Trumps 'word' is worth.

Actually, having gone back and re-read your reply, Slick, I think I jumped on you too quickly. I expect you're right in your prediction [about attack ads].

I contrasted "personality" with "will", and you pulled "experience" out of it? You're a tragic loss to the political scene.

EDIT:

callmeslick wrote:as to Trumps 'word'......feel free to ask any major US bank how much Donald Trumps 'word' is worth.

The ability to talk around the truth like this is not an endearing quality. I think you can grasp what I meant.

I grasped what I thought you meant, and was pointing out that that 'image' of a man's word can change, and be changed. This is going to be a wild ride, from what I'm hearing about the amount of money getting put on the table for ads. Scary.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Trump strikes me as a man who will do what he says, and says what he will do...

I could agree to this in the same sense that I could agree to the theory that if you sat a monkey in front of a typewriter for infinity it would eventually type out the complete works of Shakespeare. Because Trump just throws everything at the wall to see what sticks, he will say anything about his goals even if he contradicts himself in the process.

Also because of a matter of personal pride or that a businessman is nothing if their word means nothing? Are you even living on the same planet as the rest of us? These are the elite of the elites of the business world and you don't get there by being honest. By the time you get to the same level as Trump, they are all liars and thieves, the only difference between them and the common crook is they have enough money to get away with it...

My perception, Krom, is that you actually don't succeed in business by being desperate. You do see a lot of people in business vying for position and failing to get there legitimately for various reasons (most don't understand why), and there are almost certainly places where it is the pervasive culture. There are different business cultures from place to place for varying reasons, but my (admittedly fairly limited) experience in business is that the more successful people (not just the people trying to look successful) are actually successful for legitimate reasons, and do tend to value character. Your word had better mean something, and if you make a habit of screwing people it has a way of coming back on you.

Actually, the way you make it in business is by having friends, but I can’t really speak for people like Trump.

I want a pony!!!

the way you make it in the casino and NY/Florida real estate business is to sell your soul to the Mafia, and bribe public officials.

I'm not talking about your average business owner who dies penniless. Trump is one of those 0.1%-ers, who are so far removed from the common human experience they might as well be giant tentacled space aliens from a different galaxy. If you think he prides himself on "honesty", then I'm sure Trump also deals in bridges in his NY real estate business and has a nice offer for you.

I actually didn't say "honesty", I said does what he says and says what he will do. I've seen him in interviews, and I'm pretty sure honesty isn't a policy. I have noticed that he calls it like he sees it. On the other hand I've seen Ted Cruz in interviews and debates, and in the senate, and he is terribly dishonest.

You're absolutely right that Trump is removed from the common human experience. I read a few dozen pages of his first book the other day (The Art Of The Deal), and it reads like a day in the life of royalty or something. I've always said that this was the case with most politicians, and that their campaigns deceitfully try to portray them as everyday people to garner support.

Thorne, please read the linked interview,which I tacked onto TBs new thread about 'what you voted for'. Read his words, as often as you need to let them sink in. The man who will 'do what he says' says he wishes to renegotiate US Treasury debt with 'creditors', just like in business. Without going into the differences between holding government debt versus business debt(where bondholders 'settle' in stock, or 'ownership'....maybe Trump wants to let the Chinese, Japanese and Germans own a bit of the US), these points stand out:
1. Trump hasn't read and doesn't grasp the Constitution, which is absolutely clear about paying debts in full.
2. Trump, as always, thinks you can weasel out of obligations, but......the largest group of bondholders are US citizens,
thus, effectively, he is promising to screw everyone from wealthy investors to retirees, and hoping they all go along.
3. Trump has no plan to REMOTELY balance the budget, and it's showing.