Christian conservatives are responsible for the mass shooting at a gay bar in Orlando because they "created this anti-queer climate," according to American Civil Liberties Union attorneys.
"You know what is gross — your thoughts and prayers and Islamophobia after you created this anti-queer climate," ACLU staff attorney Chase Strangio tweeted on Sunday morning.
If the shooter was white and christian, the left would be all over his upbringing, who he hung around with and his political leanings if it was found out he was a christian. The poor left has become so PC that, since he was a Muslim, the left cannot vilify his faith so they look for any tie in to Christianity as being the culprit. What they cannot accept is what Vander is saying.
Liberal speak: "Convenience for you means control for him, free and the price is astronomical, you're the product for sale". Neil Oliver
Leftist are Evil, and Liberals keep voting for them. Dennis Prager
A mouse might be in a cookie jar.... but he is not a cookie" ... Casper Ten Boom
If your life revolves around the ability to have an abortion, what does that say about your life? Anonymous
it is a shame, Woody, that you didn't stop at your first post on the subject, because you've run off the rails since then. Everyone can find something for a politcal agenda, yet none, by focusing on narrow agendas, address the issues nor make the society one bit better or safer.
"The Party told you to reject all evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
George Orwell---"1984"
Thunderbunny/Spidey/Woodchip, there's no sense in which you think that the shooter may have felt emboldened by homophobia from conservative Christians? Is it because you don't think he would feel empowered by a climate created by a different religion?
Claiming "he says Christians were responsible for the shooting" is a strawman. I guess if someone were to bring up gun control, you would paint the person as thinking gun manufacturers were responsible for the shooting? One reason to draw attention to a cause of something, even if it is one of the less direct causes, is if that cause is easier to fix, and so perhaps one reason to focus on Christian's homophobia versus Muslim's is that the former has been making progress and seems much closer to a solution than the latter.
woodchip wrote:If the shooter was white and christian, the left would be all over his upbringing, who he hung around with and his political leanings if it was found out he was a christian. The poor left has become so PC that, since he was a Muslim, the left cannot vilify his faith so they look for any tie in to Christianity as being the culprit. What they cannot accept is what Vander is saying.
wood, you think you're pointing out some big hypocrisy on the left but you don't seem to be self aware enough to see that you're engaging in the exact same hypocrisy. Why is it ok for you to call out religion if the shooter is Muslim, but wrong for "the left" to call out religion if the shooter is Christian?
As for the OP, the guy's actual quote doesn't pin responsibility for the shooters actions on christian conservatives. Maybe there's more context at the link I didn't follow, but he seems to be saying something that is painfully obvious: conservative christians expend quite a bit of energy to denigrate and sub-humanize gay people.
Vander wrote:
wood, you think you're pointing out some big hypocrisy on the left but you don't seem to be self aware enough to see that you're engaging in the exact same hypocrisy. Why is it ok for you to call out religion if the shooter is Muslim, but wrong for "the left" to call out religion if the shooter is Christian?
Because you don't have Christian clergy habitually calling for the murder of 'sinners' like you do in Islam.
Even the Westburough whackos say 'God' is the one that will do the killing...not them.
. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"- Mao Zedong
Nightshade wrote:Because you don't have Christian clergy habitually calling for the murder of 'sinners' like you do in Islam.
I can easily find you 10 or more doing so in the past year. Plus, a couple calling for the death of the sitting US President, at last obliquely. Also, you limit it to the clergy, yet are contrasting it with a religion in which the clergy are far more isolated from any central theology. I've tried to point that out before, to no avail, apparently.
"The Party told you to reject all evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
George Orwell---"1984"
Nightshade wrote:Because you don't have Christian clergy habitually calling for the murder of 'sinners' like you do in Islam.
I can easily find you 10 or more doing so in the past year. Plus, a couple calling for the death of the sitting US President, at last obliquely. Also, you limit it to the clergy, yet are contrasting it with a religion in which the clergy are far more isolated from any central theology. I've tried to point that out before, to no avail, apparently.
. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"- Mao Zedong
Wasn't Cruz your guy, TB? He was endorsed, ultimately, by this guy.
and yet when the pastor made the comments there was a flood of criticism against him. Did we hear anything against TB's imam link? And how many gays were killed by Christians because of this preachers statements?
Liberal speak: "Convenience for you means control for him, free and the price is astronomical, you're the product for sale". Neil Oliver
Leftist are Evil, and Liberals keep voting for them. Dennis Prager
A mouse might be in a cookie jar.... but he is not a cookie" ... Casper Ten Boom
If your life revolves around the ability to have an abortion, what does that say about your life? Anonymous
folks decry this stuff all the time, Woody, in the Muslim world. Your sources simply don't let you see it. On the other hand, we have Christians rooting for killers, taking the easy way out: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... his-world/
"The Party told you to reject all evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
George Orwell---"1984"
Jeff250 wrote:Thunderbunny/Spidey/Woodchip, there's no sense in which you think that the shooter may have felt emboldened by homophobia from conservative Christians? Is it because you don't think he would feel empowered by a climate created by a different religion?
No, I think this is the perfect example of avoiding reality by switching blame.
That Muslim homophobia is responsible for the shooting? No one is denying that. But since Christians post here, not Muslims, why is talking about Christian homophobia verboten?
Jeff250 wrote:That Muslim homophobia is responsible for the shooting? No one is denying that. But since Christians post here, not Muslims, why is talking about Christian homophobia verboten?
It's not. What's infuriating is the equivocation. Yes, there are backward idiots out there in the "Christian" world that are "homophobic." However, none - even the most vile of their venom - have inspired the massacre of homosexuals on this scale.
In the muslim world, the killing of homosexuals is a common occurrence that hardly even garners a shrug from the common people. It is now coming here with the muslims that believe it's ok and even mandated by their religious law.
. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"- Mao Zedong
Nightshade wrote:However, none - even the most vile of their venom - have inspired the massacre of homosexuals on this scale.
So you're basically advocating for the lesser of two evils? The most recent statistics (2014) show 1,402 hate crimes based on sexual orientation. LGBT persons are literally murdered every month in the United States.
Thunderbunny, I think what you're confusing with equivocation between Muslim homophobia and Christian homophobia is really just disinterest in the comparison. Everyone agrees that Muslim homophobia is generally much worse, but is it an important question to be asking? Our country has considerably more Christians than Muslims, and so it may be more impactful to address Christian homophobia in this country even though it isn't as bad simply because it is more abundant, and since Christians are typically less extremist than Muslims, they may be more amenable to the message. I think you're confusing the question of who's responsible with the question of what can we do to best prevent this from happening in the future. It's compatible to say that even though a Muslim extremist was responsible for the shooting, an effective approach to prevent hate crimes, even Muslim hate crimes, is for the dominant religion in this country to be less homophobic.
Nightshade wrote:However, none - even the most vile of their venom - have inspired the massacre of homosexuals on this scale.
So you're basically advocating for the lesser of two evils? The most recent statistics (2014) show 1,402 hate crimes based on sexual orientation. LGBT persons are literally murdered every month in the United States.
Hurray I guess?
So what is the point of your link when it shows no causality between religion and the killings listed? The Orlando killings
clearly have a link to the Muslim faith.
Liberal speak: "Convenience for you means control for him, free and the price is astronomical, you're the product for sale". Neil Oliver
Leftist are Evil, and Liberals keep voting for them. Dennis Prager
A mouse might be in a cookie jar.... but he is not a cookie" ... Casper Ten Boom
If your life revolves around the ability to have an abortion, what does that say about your life? Anonymous
Jeff250 wrote:It's compatible to say that even though a Muslim extremist was responsible for the shooting, an effective approach to prevent hate crimes, even Muslim hate crimes, is for the dominant religion in this country to be less homophobic.
That's the part that doesn't add up for me. Why would someone who has been investigated twice by the FBI beforehand, suddenly profess support for a radical group just before the event? It's like there is a big chunk of information missing.
Jeff250 wrote:Thunderbunny, I think what you're confusing with equivocation between Muslim homophobia and Christian homophobia is really just disinterest in the comparison. Everyone agrees that Muslim homophobia is generally much worse, but is it an important question to be asking? Our country has considerably more Christians than Muslims, and so it may be more impactful to address Christian homophobia in this country even though it isn't as bad simply because it is more abundant, and since Christians are typically less extremist than Muslims, they may be more amenable to the message. I think you're confusing the question of who's responsible with the question of what can we do to best prevent this from happening in the future. It's compatible to say that even though a Muslim extremist was responsible for the shooting, an effective approach to prevent hate crimes, even Muslim hate crimes, is for the dominant religion in this country to be less homophobic.
Uhh...right.
Let's just say for a moment that the country were completely secular with no religious endemic homophobia nor plain nonreligious homophobia...
Would this Muslim immigrant still have done what he did? The answer is YES.
His Muslim immigrant parents retained their backward religious beliefs and the shooter was brought up believing in them. It turns out that he himself was possibly gay and felt guilty for being the way he was because of his own family's beliefs...so he killed everyone he could in that gay bar in a murder-suicide to "atone" for his sins against islam and to become a martyr in his father's eyes and gain acceptence in death if not in life.
. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun"- Mao Zedong
Most children grow up to be less religious than their parents, so it is anomalous for him to be more radical than his. Let's assume you're right in that he did this because he was gay and he felt he needed to atone for his perceived sins. What if he had had a friend or coworker who was openly gay instead of being closeted? He could have had someone to talk to and someone from whom to receive support.
Do you resist the notion that it would be helpful for people who engage in homophobia to stop because you recently started a thread flippantly comparing transgendered people to furries and you wish to justify and continue your own homophobic behavior? If you're really concerned about homophobia, then the easiest thing you could do to help is to modify your own behavior.
Nightshade wrote:However, none - even the most vile of their venom - have inspired the massacre of homosexuals on this scale.
So you're basically advocating for the lesser of two evils? The most recent statistics (2014) show 1,402 hate crimes based on sexual orientation. LGBT persons are literally murdered every month in the United States.
