DescentBB

...then it is doomed.

The least patriotic are liberals and young adults. Only 34 percent of young adults and 36 percent of liberals said they were “extremely proud” to be Americans in the survey.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... emely-pro/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... e-america/

Or perhaps it's that those people see a lot of unresolved issues in our country, and would not classify themselves as "proud" while they remain unresolved? Or perhaps it's that younger people are beginning to reject the extreme nationalism of the 20th century, and view their 21st-century selves as less citizens of a country and more passengers on spaceship Earth?

...nah, let's go with the jingoistic response that makes a first-grader's book report seem sophisticated.

More broadly, though, the second article's satire raises a good point: why should one be "proud" of something that one had no part in doing? The only reason that any of us are United States citizens is because we happened to be born on US soil, or to parents who were also US citizens. Should I also be proud of the fact that I'm right-handed? I can certainly be happy that I live in the United States, and I'd gladly answer a poll to that effect, but I take no pleasure in masochistic chest-thumping over something I didn't do myself.

Funny, conservatives are the ones constantly proclaiming "We are going to make America great again!", heavily implying it no longer is.

Conservative politicians like to drum up false patriotism in order to cover up that for the last 30 years they have literally been trying to tear the government down and destroy it, one of the most unpatriotic things people hired to govern can do.

moreover, it is CONSISTENTLY right-wingers who I encounter bad-mouthing massive numbers of their fellow citizens. How do you suggest that they 'love America' when they hate the diverse mix of people who ARE Americans, and whose diversity is EXACTLY what makes America great.

Diversity is only one of the good things about America…it is not what makes America great.

This country is great because it was founded by people with great foresight, and the idea that freedom is our most important possession.

As far as pride…sometimes this country makes me proud and other times it does not.

And one thing is sure…liberals hate large swaths of American citizens, perhaps even larger swaths than do conservatives. But probably the most disturbing thing is the trend towards distain of American institutions that is on the increase (all institutions not just government) by all Americans.

Spidey wrote:Diversity is only one of the good things about America…it is not what makes America great.

strongly disagree. It is at the very core of what made us great. Even the formation of a nation from a range of very diverse colonies, with even more diverse trade partners and residents once the colonies matured, gave strength out of diversity. We weren't a singular ethnic group or class grouping in the traditional English sense. From that, and the embrace of all who came here for generations(sometimes the embrace is preceded by abuse), flows virtually everything seen as archetypically American with the world looks up to.

This country is great because it was founded by people with great foresight, and the idea that freedom is our most important possession.

quite true, that helps matters, but it takes the whole of the People to make that idea work.

my take on the Patriotism matter is that by my definiton it should never be My Country, Right or Wrong, and ending there. Wrongs should be seen as matters to improve upon, steadily. That I love the country, and the principles behind our government(Spidey lays out a major pillar, but there are others), is a DAILY given. That I respect the hell out of the people who built this nation, also a given. Merely wishing to see our nation return to a far less intrusive global presence, and one that is more inclusive isn't unpatriotic. Might be wishful thinking in these times, but hardly lacking in love of country.

Spidey wrote:This country is great because it was founded by people with great foresight, and the idea that freedom is our most important possession.

Let's dial down the romanticism a bit. The founders were simply following trends of the time and they didn't prepare us for 21st Century wage slavery and corporate oligarchy. They also didn't write any preventive controls into a system that devolved into a gridlocked two-party system with rampant corruption in the Legislative Branch. If "freedom" is the thing that makes America great there are a number of countries that do it way better than us.

I will agree with your statement of trust in long-standing institutions.

Well I would rather romanticize those old dead progressives than the ones we have today.

And yea, I knew you were going to say that…

It is at the very core of what made us great.

Then China should be pure awesomeness.

Spidey wrote:And one thing is sure…liberals hate large swaths of American citizens

I think you're wrong. Probably because I consider myself liberal, and am projecting my own beliefs and perceptions onto whatever it is you consider liberal. I'm not a trigger warning safe space liberal. I do not hate large swaths of American citizens. Certainly, I disagree with and am disappointed by large swaths of American citizens, but that is not hate.

What I see is that American conservatives typically have a more narrow definition of their tribe than American liberals. Liberals don't always adhere to or give the same weight of preference to the same tribal boundries that conservatives do. This can narrow the target of disagreement and disappointment toward conservatives.

I also think you're wrong because of the political dynamic of what it is to be a conservative or liberal. A liberal is typically an advocate for change of some kind to the status quo. Conversely, a conservative is typically an advocate against change to the status quo. Political movements are more powerful when framed as fighting against something than fighting for something. For liberals, it is typically fighting against policies or institutions that define the status quo. For conservatives to fight against something, it's usually liberals.

What kept coming to mind as I wrote that last paragraph are people that "roll coal." Is that advocating for lax pollution/efficiency standards? Or is that spite against liberals who advocate for more stringent polution/efficiency standards?

Anyways, we are, all of us, America. Except Ferno and Sigma. USA USA USA

Spidey wrote:Well I would rather romanticize those old dead progressives than the ones we have today.

You mean the ones who didn't practice what they preached? Who wrote about all men being equal while leaving out women, children, slaves, white men who didn't own land, and basically anyone who wasn't someone with connections? Yeah, real cool guys. Again, I can't really blame them because they were just following the trends at the time. But 200+ years later we know better than the founders. I'll take safe-spaces over slavery any day.

Vander wrote:What kept coming to mind as I wrote that last paragraph are people that "roll coal." Is that advocating for lax pollution/efficiency standards? Or is that spite against liberals who advocate for more stringent polution/efficiency standards?

No, it's probably the desire to keep jobs and profits.

Perhaps “hate” is a little strong, but I used it in response to slick’s remark about hating the diverse mix of Americans.

I don’t know…choose whatever word you want….liberals seem to **** the following:

Conservatives
Business People
The Wealthy
Southerners
White People
Religious People
Gun Owners
Etc…

And of course that is a generalization, basically in response to the OP and how the thread was going thereafter. I personally don’t like generalizing people, but that seems to be the MO lately.

vision wrote:

Spidey wrote:Well I would rather romanticize those old dead progressives than the ones we have today.

You mean the ones who didn't practice what they preached? Who wrote about all men being equal while leaving out women, children, slaves, white men who didn't own land, and basically anyone who wasn't someone with connections? Yeah, real cool guys. Again, I can't really blame them because they were just following the trends at the time. But 200+ years later we know better than the founders. I'll take safe-spaces over slavery any day.

Well at least you seem to understand not judging people from the past thru the lens of the present. But I still sense the distain.

Spidey wrote:But I still sense the distain.

The disdain isn't against the Founding Fathers. I just think romanticising the past isn't helpful, whether it be for the good old days of the 18th Century with slavery or the good old days of post WWII industry with segregation. American is probably the best country it's ever been, right now, and it can be even better, but we need to keep breaking down economic and political barriers for everyone. You can't have real freedom if you don't have equality.

Spidey wrote:And one thing is sure…liberals hate large swaths of American citizens, perhaps even larger swaths than do conservatives. But probably the most disturbing thing is the trend towards distain of American institutions that is on the increase (all institutions not just government) by all Americans.

Where do you come up with that trash? Most of the nativism, nationalism, racism and xenophobia going on in this country right now is being promulgated by right wing hate mongering nut cases who are currently being lead on by Mr. Trump. In fact, right wingers have been the ones bad mouthing and cursing lefties as pariahs for years. Most lefties have been taking it in stride, for the most part, but there's only so much trash talk us lefties can take before we start to get really sick of it, and right now, I'm sick of it. We lefties are Americans and we love this country just as much you righties do. We just don't like what the right wingers are doing to the country and how they're using our military to promote American imperialism around the world and turning war into a profitable enterprise. That's sick. We lefties don't hate the military, we hate what many of our leaders DO with that military. And which American institutions do you think liberals "disdain"? I've heard more right wingers calling for the tearing apart or dismantling our "big government", than any other group as of late.

Maybe you right wingers are confusing patriotism and nationalism. From Wiki:

Nationalism is a shared group feeling in the significance of a geographical and sometimes demographic region seeking independence for its culture or ethnicity that holds that group together.

Patriotism is an emotional attachment to a nation which an individual recognizes as their homeland.

Tell me which one best describes the present ideology going around in the current Trump crowd.

http://www.differencebetween.net/langua ... atriotism/

George Orwell wrote:Patriotism can only flourish only where racism and nationalism are given no quarter. We should never mistake patriotism for nationalism. A patriot is one who loves his homeland. A nationalist is one who scorns the homelands of others.

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first.

Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.

Well…vision romanticizing is your choice of terms, I just chose not to challenge it, to me romanticizing something means to see it through a “rose colored lens” which is something I try not to do, I know full well the shortcomings of the founding fathers…but that doesn’t mean not giving credit where credit is due.

They gave the country a good framework to build on, and they must get credit for that.

tunnelcat wrote:Where do you come up with that trash? Most of the nativism, nationalism, racism and xenophobia going on in this country right now is being promulgated by right wing hate mongering nut cases who are currently being lead on by Mr. Trump.

Yes indeed, but the left's version of **** is just a little more subtle.

Oh yea, thanks I forgot the Military...

Spidey wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:Where do you come up with that trash? Most of the nativism, nationalism, racism and xenophobia going on in this country right now is being promulgated by right wing hate mongering nut cases who are currently being lead on by Mr. Trump.

Yes indeed, but the left's version of **** is just a little more subtle.

Oh yea, thanks I forgot the Military...

OK, give me an example. And reread my previous post. I added some pertinent information.

Examples would be pointless, because you are blind to it.

If you can't see the hate when somebody uses the term “redneck” then all of the explaining in the world won’t help.

Spidey wrote:Examples would be pointless, because you are blind to it.

If you can't see the hate when somebody uses the term “redneck” then all of the explaining in the world won’t help.

I see "redneck" as a derogatory word and if I ever uttered it, it was uttered as a emotional rant, which I will admit to and retract. Next.

No, I'm not going to make this about you.

But you do seem to dislike white men...a lot...

disagreement is not hate.

Spidey wrote:No, I'm not going to make this about you.

But you do seem to dislike white men...a lot...

Because many white men (I'm not personally singling you out either Spidey ) seem to have a sense of superiority that's been born out by historical actions. The proof is all around us like an open sore, if the current crop of Neo Nazis and the still existing KKK are any proof. I'm white myself, but I'm not going to elevate or consider my whiteness to be superior to the race and ethnicity of others different from me. I don't ascribe to the usual misconception that whites are better than any other races around the world, like a lot of Trump supporters seem to believe right now. By the way, I married a lily white male of German and Swedish ancestry. I guess that makes me a white hater.

callmeslick wrote:disagreement is not hate.

No but, insults like “spaghetti monster” and “fairy tales” does indeed show a certain amount of contempt.

tunnelcat wrote:

Spidey wrote:No, I'm not going to make this about you.

But you do seem to dislike white men...a lot...

Because many white men (I'm not personally singling you out either Spidey ) seem to have a sense of superiority that's been born out by historical actions. The proof is all around us like an open sore, if the current crop of Neo Nazis and the still existing KKK are any proof. I'm white myself, but I'm not going to elevate or consider my whiteness to be superior to the race and ethnicity of others different from me. I don't ascribe to the usual misconception that whites are better than any other races around the world, like a lot of Trump supporters seem to believe right now. By the way, I married a lily white male of German and Swedish ancestry. I guess that makes me a white hater.

But that is a myopic view, have you ever been out of this country…many men of different races and ethnic groups think they are top ★■◆● on the banana tree.

Spidey wrote:

callmeslick wrote:disagreement is not hate.

No but, insults like “spaghetti monster” and “fairy tales” does indeed show a certain amount of contempt.

that would depend on the context. Were one putting forth that those are the intellectual equivalent of the beliefs of others that would be seen as disrespectful by those adherents, when it is actually a statement of equivalency. Hate, to me, is the idea that others don't deserve to have equal treatment in our society, or worse, should be banned, killed, isolated or deported. The treatment of Obama, by some extreme members of our society veers from disagreement into disrespect for the office and far too often hate. Frankly, I don't see either extreme being free of hate, hence I tend to support more centrist candidates, such as Obama. When I see the goofy hate from both the right and left which I've watched for 7 years, I know the man has been on a pretty good track.

tunnelcat wrote:

Spidey wrote:No, I'm not going to make this about you.

But you do seem to dislike white men...a lot...

Because many white men (I'm not personally singling you out either Spidey ) seem to have a sense of superiority that's been born out by historical actions. The proof is all around us like an open sore, if the current crop of Neo Nazis and the still existing KKK are any proof. I'm white myself, but I'm not going to elevate or consider my whiteness to be superior to the race and ethnicity of others different from me. I don't ascribe to the usual misconception that whites are better than any other races around the world, like a lot of Trump supporters seem to believe right now. By the way, I married a lily white male of German and Swedish ancestry. I guess that makes me a white hater.

Hey, you want a laugh? Have a listen to Dennis Prager and his radio show. I guarantee you'll either be laughing or pissed right off at his goofy claims. I find them so absurd they border on the ridiculous... and that's what makes me laugh. Especially his 'racism only exists in small corners' claim. That's hilarity in itself.

Maybe he lives under a rock.

Spidey wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:

Spidey wrote:No, I'm not going to make this about you.

But you do seem to dislike white men...a lot...

Because many white men (I'm not personally singling you out either Spidey ) seem to have a sense of superiority that's been born out by historical actions. The proof is all around us like an open sore, if the current crop of Neo Nazis and the still existing KKK are any proof. I'm white myself, but I'm not going to elevate or consider my whiteness to be superior to the race and ethnicity of others different from me. I don't ascribe to the usual misconception that whites are better than any other races around the world, like a lot of Trump supporters seem to believe right now. By the way, I married a lily white male of German and Swedish ancestry. I guess that makes me a white hater.

But that is a myopic view, have you ever been out of this country…many men of different races and ethnic groups think they are top **** on the banana tree.

Doesn't every race have it's own version of tribalism? Hell, even our own Continental Army had trouble keeping soldiers on the front lines because those soldiers were from different states and felt they owned their loyalty to their states first, not some revolutionary and nascent country that didn't even exist yet.

I don't fault any race of people when they've been pretty much relegated to the bottom social tier in their own country. Bitterness is a hard taste to get out of the mouth. But look at the American working class white guy, harboring resentment at being relegated to a lesser social stature just because of the shear lack of numbers. Those white guys are now willing to vote for a egomaniac psychopath who really doesn't have their best interests in mind and never has, since he's part of the plutocrat class that doesn't really care how much they're paid, or even if they have jobs. Trump is just like all plutocrats, profit is God before all else. What a weird coalition.Trump is feeding on that resentment while trying to get elected president too. Divide, vilify and conquer is not the way to lead a country composed of so many different immigrants and races.

http://www.cnet.com/news/trumps-star-of ... age-board/