DescentBB

achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard.

https://theintercept.com/2016/09/23/stu ... ed-for-it/

So... what exactly are you saying here, Ferno? Posting a link and a single quote from said link doesn't say much. Just asking for clarification on your stance, maybe some thoughts on the matter. I don't like making the comparison, but that's a TB-tier OP. Please elaborate.

courts will straighten that out.

Personally I’m not real big on protests myself, but I don’t have any problem with them. But I really can’t see how you achieve unity and amity by disrespecting a national tradition like this.

In other words…I think this is counter-productive.

But I wouldn’t try to stop them either, I would just ignore them, and try to resist the impulse to return the disrespect.

MD-1118 wrote:So... what exactly are you saying here, Ferno? Posting a link and a single quote from said link doesn't say much. Just asking for clarification on your stance, maybe some thoughts on the matter. I don't like making the comparison, but that's a TB-tier OP. Please elaborate.

It was late when I posted it, so I forgot to add my own piece.


If this passes, and I hope it doesn't, it will set a very dangerous precedent and we'll have gone back 70 years. Legislating patriotism is the antithesis of free speech.

I'm more or less of the same opinion as Spidey on this one. I agree though, patriotism isn't something that should necessarily be legislated.

It's fun that people say "if you don't like it go to North Korea" when being compelled to salute a piece of fabric is the exact sort of fascist fuckery that passes for daily life in said places.

Ferno wrote:

MD-1118 wrote:So... what exactly are you saying here, Ferno? Posting a link and a single quote from said link doesn't say much. Just asking for clarification on your stance, maybe some thoughts on the matter. I don't like making the comparison, but that's a TB-tier OP. Please elaborate.

It was late when I posted it, so I forgot to add my own piece.


If this passes, and I hope it doesn't, it will set a very dangerous precedent and we'll have gone back 70 years. Legislating patriotism is the antithesis of free speech.

I wholeheartedly agree. This nation was founded on free speech, not bowing to authoritarian or compulsory patriotic nationalism. So any protest speech or action, even if it's not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance, should never, ever, be infringed upon.

EDIT:

Seeing slick's post with the picture of the Nazi Flag being sold alongside a Trump campaign poster from my Peddler of Lies thread got me thinking. Why are people in this country throwing fits about protesters not standing for the Pledge, and yet stand by and allow people to freely sell a flag from one of the most oppressive murderous monsters of the 20th Century, Hitler's Nazi Flag? Frankly, making money off it is nothing but peverted blood money and it's something that I'm guessing most of the buyers who purchase are probably proud to own. Basically, it's SICK. Millions of freedom loving people fought and died to rid the world of that hateful murderous bastard and people are still demanding the flag from his regime as a symbol of something better? They're not buying it as a collector's item. They're buying it because they somehow believe in what it represents.

When you disrespect the flag, you are not disrespecting a piece of cloth, you are disrespecting an entire nation, you are disrespecting the people who fought for civil rights, you are disrespecting the soldiers who died in war, you are disrespecting the very concept that gives you the right to protest in the first place.

Spidey wrote:When you disrespect the flag, you are not disrespecting a piece of cloth, you are disrespecting an entire nation, you are disrespecting the people who fought for civil rights, you are disrespecting the soldiers who died in war, you are disrespecting the very concept that gives you the right to protest in the first place.

I, and a lot of others, do NOT feel that way. Disrespect for the flag is a sign of the utmost dismay with the nation it represents. Any further attachments are made by others, not inherent by definition. If you feel it disrespects soldiers, alive or dead, that is your opinion. Not fact. And so on. Also, any idea of enforced 'patriotism' renders the definition invalid, as you cannot force a feeling within, to my mind.

Spidey wrote:When you disrespect the flag, you are not disrespecting a piece of cloth, you are disrespecting an entire nation, you are disrespecting the people who fought for civil rights, you are disrespecting the soldiers who died in war, you are disrespecting the very concept that gives you the right to protest in the first place.

If we don't have the freedom to show disrespect for the symbol of a nation that some people perceive or believe harbor injustices within our criminal justice system, then this country is no better than a dictatorship. Change only happens when people are free to speak their opinions and act on them. Freedom of speech can sometimes be contrary to what our flag stands for, but in the end, our system will always grow stronger because of it. If we fall victim to rigid nationalism, we've lost the freedom that we've strove to protect every day of our lives. We should be proud that as a nation, we let ALL people have their say, no matter how vile it can appear to others.

No, don’t misunderstand me…I’m not saying people don’t have the right to such protests…I’m just pointing them out for what they actually are.

callmeslick wrote:Disrespect for the flag is a sign of the utmost dismay with the nation it represents.

And just exactly what is a nation?

If not the people.

sure, that can be the case. If you think the people, for instance, are entirely too blase about systemic racism, you don't respect the flag. I'm ok with that concept. Respect is earned.

Standing for the National Anthem at a sporting event is very much the least one can do to honor our troops or our country or whatever else the ritual is supposed to represent.

If you want to pay more than the bare minimum lip service, stop being entertained and start paying attention. If you want to support the troops, how about we elect people that won't send them off on bull★■◆● missions, and then nickel and dime them for healthcare when they come home. If you want to honor our experiment in self government or the freedoms we enjoy, how about taking the responsibility to stay informed on issues of import and being an active and involved participant.

Yes, standing during the National Anthem is the least we can do. Let's not make it sound more important than it is.

Be sure to tell that to the protesters.

Y'know, amidst all the foaming at the mouth over Colin Kapernik and other NFL players doing what they're doing, I've seen any number of active-duty servicemembers and veterans come out in support of him, basically saying, "This right here is what we actually fight for." The flag on its own is just a symbol, an image. The oath a soldier takes is to support and defend the Constitution, not that piece of fabric for its own sake, and perhaps more dear than any other right the Constitution upholds is that of freedom of expression and dissent.

precisely, TG....it's embarrassing that such has to be explained. That is generally the take from the vets I work with via Healing Waters.

Spidey wrote:Be sure to tell that to the protesters.

I would suggest that protesting the commemoration of our freedoms may be a far greater tribute to those freedoms than the commemoration.

Well, if the flag is just a symbol or piece of cloth then I guess that means the protests are basically meaningless.

Umm, no they're not? They're using a moment generally viewed as rote patriotism to call attention to a cause they feel is not getting the recognition it deserves. That's pretty much the definition of a meaningful protest.

Well let them put their money where their mouth is and not play the game either.

Why, so you don't have to see them and feel uncomfortable?

To put some skin in the game…to make some sacrifice for your cause, like how people are willing to go to jail and such.

You spit in my face, and then proceed to play the game like nothing happened.

Spidey wrote:You spit in my face, and then proceed to play the game like nothing happened.

It's weird to see people butt-hurt over this.

Spidey wrote:To put some skin in the game…to make some sacrifice for your cause, like how people are willing to go to jail and such.

You spit in my face, and then proceed to play the game like nothing happened.

news flash: they're going to play the football game, despite your sensitive feelings. The 80,000 folks in the seats may likely not be so sensitive, and I'll bet more than half of the millions at home are taking a leak or grabbing a sandwich when the Anthem gets played. So, get over yourself.

oh, and some of these guys are gambling literally millions of dollars in endorsements, so to say they need to put skin in the game clearly shows what color skin YOU'RE talking out of.

I'm not "butt hurt" but it does bother me to some degree.

Oh well, we can't all be awesome like you.

I'm not awesome, I just DO manage to go through life on the assumption that we don't all have to think alike, plus a healthy respect for freedom of expression. Not that much to manage, frankly.

Did you use the term "butt hurt" no you didn't, so I was probably not talking to you.

Spidey wrote:Well, if the flag is just a symbol or piece of cloth then I guess that means the protests are basically meaningless.

A flag in itself is a symbol and only a symbol; a piece of cloth arranged, coloured and constructed in a way that we think looks pleasing. It only obtains meaning when we assign it meaning.

We're using symbols right now, but we call them letters -- and we put those letters into words. But they're still symbols.


The protests still have meaning, and carry that meaning to other injustices when it's applied to them.

to make some sacrifice for your cause, like how people are willing to go to jail and such.

Like slick said -- these people are risking large endorsements, and starting to take hits in terms of being dropped by their sponsors. They're still sacrificing what they have in order to stand up for what they believe in.

So while I was working out this afternoon, I got to thinking…what if you could have a conversation with your ass…so it might go something like this…

Spidey’s Ass: Hey Spidey...
Spidey’s Ass: HEY SPIDEY!
Spidey: What?
Spidey’s Ass: What’s a symbol?
Spidey: What’s a…are you joking?
Spidey’s Ass: No…what is a symbol?
Spidey: Everyone knows what a symbol is.
Spidey’s Ass: Humor me.
Spidey: Ok, a symbol is an abstract that represents an idea or concept, but could represent almost anything.
Spidey’s Ass: Ahhhh see, you’re not as stupid as you look.
Spidey: Shut up! Your breath is bad.

As if the two were mutually exclusive…as if the pledge doesn’t actually teach the latter.

Sorry Spidey, our fight against compulsory unification of opinion is going to require for you to agree with us completely.

That's awesome!

Spidey wrote:As if the two were mutually exclusive…as if the pledge doesn’t actually teach the latter.

find me one schoolchild who 'learned' a damn thing other than rote memorization from the Pledge. Sure, it's a great text to learn about 'humanity'. Of course,we can all sing ALL the verses of the Star Spangled Banner and enjoy the parts about the negroes.