Explanations about German stuff, 'n' fings

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:22 am

Diedel wrote: The Germans looking away when the Nazis started their atrocities in Germany is another story, and I have an explanation for that too, but I guess in a place like this everything I say here would inevitably be turned into mud throwing against me and Germany. Sigh.

I'd like to here the explanation, just out of interest Diedel.

Peeps!! Try not to get snotty, it's a beautiful day outside.

FC

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:30 am

I'm german, so i'd like to have an explanation as well.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:41 am

Okey dokey, let's have a "discussion" about anti-semitism in Europe for all the f*cktards of this forum instead.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:52 am

well ...

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:05 am

That was interesting. Yes. Many of your compatriots that i've talked to (whom are all well into their eighties and ninties) say that the rise of racist nationalism was almost a forgone conclusion given the regions history. It still surprises them that it was allowed to happen however by both the population and the surrounding states. I wonder if it would be allowed to happen today?

I'm not sure if i agree with you that the thirty year war had any influence upon the atrocities, i'll have to read up on that. I mean Poland was used as a punch bag back then, but the poles didn't build gas chambers.

FC

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:10 am

With Jewish hate crimes on such a significant rise in that part of Europe, let's hope history doesn't repeat itself and that this time the citizens find a backbone rather than turning a blind eye.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:10 am

I believe that you have to see all these things in conjunction, not separately. I can see a red line going through German history here.

Racism definitely would not be allowed to rise in Germany nowadays any more. The spirit here has totally changed.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:11 am

bash wrote:With Jewish hate crimes on such a significant rise in that part of Europe ...

Whaaaat?! That's total rubbish. I really need to hold myself back. Some people are around just to spread confusion and anger, and you seem to be one of those.

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:15 am

Hmm, you must not read many newspapers. Anti-semitic hate crimes are growing in Old Europe. But you hold yourself back, little fella.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:19 am

bash wrote:Hmm, you must not read many newspapers. Anti-semitic hate crimes are growing in Old Europe. But you hold yourself back, little fella.

That's simply not true. Spare me your stupid remarks, liar.

You must be the new forum troll.

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:22 am

Here's a sampling. Granted, these are in France (it was a quick search) but I wasn't singling out Germany. FWIW, I am third gen German-American. And if you're 42, you've got some issues to resolve because you present yourself like a 12-year-old. If you're claiming that anti-semitic hate crimes are not rising in Europe, it's time to get your head out of your as[spoiler][/spoiler]s.

[quote]June 11, 2004 â?? Rivesaltes â?? A Holocaust-era mural painted by Jewish children in a transit camp who were being held before being sent to Nazi death camps, was discovered vandalized in southwestern France. A historian visiting the site, where 4,500 Jews and Gypsies were held, found that the mural had been chiseled off the wall. According to The Independent, in 1942, a Swiss nurse at the camp asked the children to paint a Swiss landscape on the infirmary wall. The painting was discovered in 1999 and was to become the central exhibition of a Holocaust museum at the Rivesaltes transit camp. Half of the inmates of the transit camp, including 400 children, were later killed in Auschwitz. French government officials condemned the incident, and the Interior Minister promised that the mural would be restored.

June 4, 2004 â?? Epinay-sur-Seine â?? A 17-year-old Jewish student was stabbed with by a man with a knife shouting â??Allahu Aqbarâ?

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:32 am

You have sampled a few anti-jewish events committed by some fools (which will always be around), and are trying to prove what? That these things are on the rise here? Things like that happen in Germany from time to time, too, and the people doing it are persecuted.

I could in turn drown this board with quotes of racist actions in the U.S.

Your "12 year old" remark simply display your state of maturity.

Btw, thanks for ruining this thread with the products of your mental diarrhea, against the request of the thread starter.

Actually I don't even care about your personal attacks, but I care about the way you are obviously trying to destroy every thread I am involved in some way. You're an agent provocateur who loves to insult people and strike below the belt. Exactly the kind of person everybody would like to have around.

Warlock · Post by **Warlock** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:40 am

heres one thang i dont get though, they allways bring up the mass killing of jew's hitler did and yes that was bad but here the thang i dont get what about stalen hes killed alot of people to but it seems scence he was on are side its ok 0_o

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:41 am

Personally I think he was just as bad. But he was on the right side ...

De Rigueur · Post by **De Rigueur** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:54 am

From what I've heard the the increase of anti-semitism is primarily due to the increasing muslim population in france. They came to france from former french colonies. fwiw, I don't think germany was ever much of a colonial power.

Also, I think Stalin's purges were not done during the war when Russia was an ally. A reason why Stalin's atrocities are downplayed is perhaps because so many people want communism to succeed that they overlook its shortcomings.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:11 pm

Unfortunately Bash those quotes don't substantiate your claim...maybe a study?

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:10 pm

Report of the European Monitoring Center (EUMC) "Antisemitism in the EU 2002-2003":

It's 345 page PDF file.

Go to page 17 and start reading at "Antisemetic incidents during 2002-2003" for a country by country synopsis.

You won't find any gas chambers or conentration camps in the report, but I see the word "increase" being used a fair amount. I haven't read it word for word, but I get the sense that antisemitic events aren't all that well reported in Europe and are often rationalized as being something else (making racist remarks is political criticism of Israel, for example).

Link

------------------------

Of course, there's the denial aspect to consider, too:

E.U. Accused of Burying Report

The Censored EU Report on European Anti-Semitism

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:18 pm

Birds, Index' link is a good start. My information came from the Anti-Defamation League.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:22 pm

And how much racism is in the U.S.?

Why don't you pull the tree from your eye before pointing at the straw in ours?

There are very few antisemitic incidents in Germany btw, because the people and the press here are very sensitive towards such things, and if such things happens (you can find neo nazis everywhere, very much including the U.S.), their deeds are condemned here.

I believe there also is a difference between officially sanctioned atrocities and those committed by criminals w/o any consent of the authorities.

What you as well do is spoil this thread which had a completely different direction before you bloody trools who have nothing to do than vent their retarded prejudices against Europe showed up here.

I very much hope this thread gets closed quickly.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:25 pm

Well, um. The Anti-Defamation league isn't exactly non-partisan in cases of anti-Semitism, and from my experience isn't shy about calling people anti-Semitic.

Diedel, I could use the exact same argument against you. AAMOF, what with all our sensitive media and whatnot, and the overbearingness of entities like the ACLU and crusading law firms, I would say that racism is not the problem here that you imagine it to be, and that the "segregation" of the United States today is much more self-desired than the people who make money off of racism fears would have you believe.

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:25 pm

DC, go with Index' link, that study is much more comprehensive and is EU-sponsored.

Diedel, you're making my case for me. First you say it doesn't exist but it does and the EUMC report clearly states that. So then you admit it exists but lash out at the US in some sort of childish tit-for-tat manner and ask that the thread be closed. Are you afraid to examine some Euro skeletons or is the game only fun when it's America bashing?

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:30 pm

DCrazy,

now who started on this "increasing anti-semitism" in Europe crap, and do you believe a dozen reports for a year (exclusively for France) make up for a witness of excessive anti-semitism in Europe, or even as much racism as is still present in the U.S.?

From what I see when briefly looking into the links posted above, it seems to be clear the the anti-semitism reported about there has its roots in the increasing number of muslim immigrants to Europe, and not in "Old Europe" as somebody put it further above.

Btw, I deeply resent the growing muslim influence, arrogance and aggressiveness that shows up in Europe and even in Germany. Germany has just passed a new immigration law to better be able to cope with hate preachers and immigrants of that kind.

May I also remind you of the particular purpose of this thread and the thread starter's appeal not to spoil it, and how the same trolls throwing mud elsewhere showed up here to continue their dirt campaign?

Please, some mod, simply close this thread.

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:36 pm

Actually I think Flabby would approve of where this thread has progressed. I think most would agree a resurgence of anti-Jewish hate crimes in Europe is unsettling and shouldn't be brushed under the carpet.

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:41 pm

So, let's recap:

Bash says,

With Jewish hate crimes on such a significant rise in that part of Europe ...

Then Deidel says,

Whaaaat?! That's total rubbish.

Then Bash says,

Hmm, you must not read many newspapers. Anti-semitic hate crimes are growing in Old Europe.

Then Deidel says,

That's simply not true. Spare me your stupid remarks, liar.

Info posted showing there is some evidence that antisemitism is on the rise in Europe and should at least be a concern worth examining.

Deidel concludes:

And how much racism is in the U.S.? Please, some mod, simply close this thread.

Heh. You're a real piece of work.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:44 pm

I do tend to agree with Deidel though that France != Germany. And having a native German grandmother (from the Rhineland no less) who reads a weekly German newspaper, I get plenty of across-the-ocean viewpoints. I agree that the bigger (but still obviously completely related) issue is the incredibly rapidly growing Muslim population, and Europe's willingness to submit to their agendas, making their life more comfortable at the expense of established ethnic groups.

But remember, whom do the Muslims hate most?

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:52 pm

Yes, but Muslims are not a nationality. They reside and are pushing agendas throughout Europe. Predictably they will try here as well but our size and diversity will likely offset their influence. (Canada, unfortunately is a different story. It has gone so far as to allow Shariah courts in Ontario but that's fodder for another thread.) Back to Europe... as they say, recognition of a problem is the first step toward overcoming it and so far many in the EU seem to mirror Diedel's reaction and are in denial that it is happening. The ADL's criticism of the EUMC report specifically was that it glossed over the fact that the rise was chiefly due to European Muslim youth. What difference should it make to a victim whether it's at the hands of Muslims or neo-Nazis? White Euros can't hide behind the excuse that it's imported riff raff while the perpetrators are holding citizenship. France, in particular, has become very frightened of one of it's own demographic groups and, as you point out, appears to be acting very tentatively toward taking on a problem it allowed to reach this point by appeasing the immigrant groups. Germany, to its credit, does seems to be faring better in this regard.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:05 pm

You must be the new forum troll.

Bash is the old forum troll, actually, and he's quite good at it ;)

I'm not going to close this just because you don't like the direction it's taken. It started out as a discussion of racism in Germany, and it's now become a discussion of anti-semitism in Western Europe, with a focus on German anti-semitism. Asking me to close the thread, or flaming people trying to force me to close it, will not get you anything. Instead, consider dealing head-on with the accusations people have made -- if you think the statements about the "rise of anti-semitism" don't apply to Germany, say that directly (and then explain page 17 of the document linked by index_html.)

Also, I think it's funny that you complain the thread has "gone off topic", yet you don't hesitate to drag it further that way by referencing racism in the US. Now, if you want to go that direction, feel free -- in particular, if you have some reason to believe racism in the US is increasing, or that racism in the US is significantly worse than racism in Europe, feel free to share it (and give us some statistics to chew on.) I think you'll be surprised, though, if you research the question of racism in the US and the sort of trends we're actually seeing nowadays...

do you believe a dozen reports for a year (exclusively for France) make up for a witness of excessive anti-semitism in Europe...?

index_html's link is not "exclusively for France". Start on the page numbered 57 (the cover page is not numbered) and read over the section on Germany. Feel free to address anything in that section.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 3:58 pm

Lothar wrote:I'm not going to close this just because you don't like the direction it's taken. It started out as a discussion of racism in Germany,

No it didn't. It started out as an explanation of the roots of it in Germany, as a historical excursion so to speak. That's pretty different.

And as far as "pulling it further" goes: I simply responded to the arguments of bash/index/who ever started this racism crap here.

And I don't like how some retards here (always the same) utilize this thread for their agenda. They can start their own.

And I really don't like how you always manage to present yourself as being right (with untrue statements like the above), making it look like I gave this thread the new direction. That's pretty much an ★■◆● tour too, imho.

I really don't care if you feel superior to me now because I resort to flat-out verbal abuse. You turn it every way you want w/o thouroughly thinking through your argumentation. You present something, and then it has to be countered, which is pretty tedious and not really worth my time.

And as I said before: Pull the tree out of your eye before you point at the straw in ours.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:04 pm

For all you hypocrites:

http://www.campusprogram.com/reference/ ... 0the%20USA
http://www.iouedu.com/press/02merc/merciera/merc30.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... eaux_x.htm
http://www.amnesty.ca/usa/racism.php

And for the retards who utilized this thread for their pathetic anti-European agenda:

What goes on in the U.S.A. is systematic and officially tolerated.

Anti-semitic incidents in Europe are not.

bash · Post by **bash** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:21 pm

*snicker*

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:25 pm

Yeah, we all know how "evil" those right-wing Republicans are

.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:27 pm

index_html wrote:Heh. You're a real piece of work.

I wish I could give you the opportunity to say that right in my face. It would be the last thing you say for a long time.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:30 pm

Jeesh -- cool down. I fell into the same trap when I's a DBB newbie, took me a moment to figure out that the culture is different. You should have known what direction the discussion is likely to go after you read the topic and the 1st post -- too many emotions attached to the whole thing for rational discussion. Americans have a differnet view on narcissm because 1. they never felt the effect 1st hand 2. they don't learn about it in school for 4 freaking years and 3. they put freedom of speech over everything else (at least "officialy" --> constitution), as a result it's not illegal to spread narcistic views as it is in germany.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:34 pm

Grendel,

it's not the emotions - it's a few particularly malicious back stabbers like bash and index.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:42 pm

I have read through the Germany part of the anti-semitism report, and I find it very positive and encouraging. Apart from a few criminals, there are no anti-semitic tendencies reported there, less wide-spread ones.

Neo-nazis are every where, and the political parties mentioned in the report (NPD, DVU, and a third one), are very small, have no seats in the parliament, and are despised by the majority of Germans for what they stand for.

So what.

bash, index, you know sh1t about Germany and Europe.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:45 pm

bash wrote:DC, go with Index' link, that study is much more comprehensive and is EU-sponsored.

Diedel, you're making my case for me. First you say it doesn't exist but it does and the EUMC report clearly states that. So then you admit it exists but lash out at the US in some sort of childish tit-for-tat manner and ask that the thread be closed. Are you afraid to examine some Euro skeletons or is the game only fun when it's America bashing?

See my above posts about the amount and significance of anti-semitism, esp. in Germany.

It's very legitimate to point back at America's part in racism - you just don't like it.

index_html · Post by **index_html** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:53 pm

I wish I could give you the opportunity to say that right in my face. It would be the last thing you say for a long time.

Would like to do a little prisoner abuse of your own, eh?

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:56 pm

index_html wrote:
I wish I could give you the opportunity to say that right in my face. It would be the last thing you say for a long time.
Would like to do a little prisoner abuse of your own, eh?

Oh well, you would be free ...

... I'd rather call it "applying direly needed educational measures".

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:57 pm

in particular, if you have some reason to believe racism in the US is increasing -Lothar

Sparked by an anti-Arab backlash in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on America, hate crimes increased 15.5 percent in California last year compared with 2000, state Attorney General Bill Lockyer says.

The overall number of hate crimes reported last year actually would have decreased 5 percent from a year earlier if not for the bias-motivated assaults against Californians victimized because they are Muslim or appeared to be of Middle Eastern descent," Mr. Lockyer says.

link

The report found that incidents targeting people, institutions and businesses identified with the Islamic faith increased from 28 in 2000 to 481 in 2001. Muslims previously had been among the least-targeted religious groups. The report did not say how many occurred after Sept. 11.

Hate crimes against people because of their ethnicity or national origin â?? those not Hispanic, not black and not Asian or American Indian â?? more than quadrupled from 354 in 2000 to 1,501 in 2001. This category includes people of Middle Eastern origin or descent.

link Fox news!

While the overall number of crimes reported to the FBI in 2001 increased slightly (2.1%), reported hate crimes increased dramatically from 8,063 in 2000 to 9,730 in 2001 (a 20.7% increase).

In 2001, 1,667 more hate crime incidents were reported than in 2000. Racial bias again represented the largest percentage of bias-motivated incidents (44.9%), followed by Ethnic/National Origin Bias (21.6%), Religious Bias (18.8%), Sexual Orientation Bias (14.3%), and Disability Bias (0.4%).

link

Nevertheless, anti-Muslim hate crimes in the United States rose 1700 percent during 2001. The report documents anti-Arab and anti-Muslim violence and the local, state and federal response to it.

Violence increased dramatically against Arabs and Muslims after September 11. The federal government reported a seventeen-fold increase in anti-Muslim hate crimes, from twenty-eight in 2000 to 481 in 2001. Muslim and Arab organizations received over 2,000 reports of harassment, violence and other acts of September 11-related bias. Chicago and Los Angeles County both experienced a fifteen-fold increase in anti-Arab hate crimes during 2001.

link

In its recent report, "State of Hate: White Nationalism in the Midwest," the Center for New Community, a faith-based human rights organization in Chicago, details 338 such groups across the Midwest, many of which are actively recruiting young people.

This includes 95 neo-Nazi and racist skinhead groups, a 30 percent increase over the past two years. Pierce [leader of national allience in W.Virgina] claims that his National Alliance has seen a 50 percent increase in website visits over the past year.

link

March 25, 2001 -- The number of hate groups in the United States jumped by approximately 10% in the year 2000, according to a new report from the Southern Poverty Law Center.

link

to be fair.

Hate crimes were down sharply in 2002 following a spike the year before that was blamed in part on anti-Muslim and Middle Eastern sentiment after the Sept. 11 attacks...[however] these people still suffer disproportionate discrimination in the wake of the Sept 11 attacks and the Iraq war.

link

went back up though..

Hate crimes against American Muslims increased by 121 percent in 2003, according to a report released on May 3, 2004 by the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a prominent national Islamic civil rights and advocacy group

link

My purpose for googling was in hope that some of you would explain or refute them. I'll pitch in my own. The problem with all hate crime statistics, is that it inevitably requires someone to make a decision of why this crime was committed. Sometimes it is obvious, sometimes it is not. Did he shoot him because he had money, or did he shoot him because he was arab?

â??Hate groupsâ?? report increases in recruitment, yet who knows, this could just be because of a decrease in the average race hate in America, and those whom have these feelings now feel alienated and they need to join a group!

I've always been a cultural relativist. I have always believed that people are people wherever you go. I don't think the United States is worse now then Germany, (dare I drop the F-bomb?), or Europe in general, but I also don't think that we are any better!

Yes, one can argue that this Government is more corrupt, inhumane, vile, or that Government works better. But comments that our people are more, corrupt, inhumane, and vile, or that those people are smarter, more tolerant, or what not, is a load of ★■◆●. We have all had different circumstances in our lives. And thatâ??s what we all are, a combination of circumstance and temperament. And I believe that temperaments tend to average out from nation to nation.

Bonz · Post by **Bonz** » Fri Jun 18, 2004 5:04 pm

ROFL, Im starting to think Diedel and Ace are related