DescentBB

In case you missed this, it's the two opposing sides to how to move forward with healthcare in the United States:



Socialism sounds awesome! (Till you have to deal with reality.)

what on Earth can Cruz claim for credibility at this stage? I mean, he just used the rather easily debunked "Dems are the party of the KKK" and got bitchslapped for it, told the world that he could NEVER support a Trump presidency, etc.

Nightshade wrote:Socialism sounds awesome! (Till you have to deal with reality.)

because having a single-payer healthcare system is exactly like socialism.

Is Canada socialist?

Well, I can say that compared to Russia, Canada this is just a Paradise on Earth. Because in Russia always can something suddenly happen, that in Canada can never happen.

Ferno wrote:because having a single-payer healthcare system is exactly like socialism.

Is Canada socialist?

So it isn't socialist?

no, it isn't. Canada maintains the provider network as private. To be 'socialism' in any form, the government needs to control those.

Nightshade wrote:

Ferno wrote:because having a single-payer healthcare system is exactly like socialism.

Is Canada socialist?

So it isn't socialist?

Not sure if you're being obtuse or sarcastic, but I'll answer it seriously.

The answer is no. The only thing that's government controlled is Medical Services Plan, which is identical to medicaid/medicare. All doctors, hospitals and clinics are private and are paid through MSP.

Do you like the system you've got Ferno? That's the million dollar question.

Tunnelcat wrote:Do you like the system you've got Ferno? That's the million dollar question.

Honestly? What I like about it is the fact that I don't have to worry about a 35,000 dollar hospital bill for when I had my toe dislocated. What I don't like is the fact that I got hit with a 350 dollar ambulance bill back in the day. And what I find stupid is the goofy tiers MSP has for us.

Frankly, I find it hard to understand why the US government does not ensure the health of its citizens.
For example, here, one a phone call, and doctors will treat you immediately. Free.
P.S. Although the course for them is always nice to get a box of chocolates after treatment is also free

Ferno wrote:

Tunnelcat wrote:Do you like the system you've got Ferno? That's the million dollar question.

Honestly? What I like about it is the fact that I don't have to worry about a 35,000 dollar hospital bill for when I had my toe dislocated. What I don't like is the fact that I got hit with a 350 dollar ambulance bill back in the day. And what I find stupid is the goofy tiers MSP has for us.

That ambulance bill is better than the $1500 dollar 3 mile ride by husband got billed for when he was hit by a car that ran a red light while he was crossing an intersection on his bike. And it was just for a single ride. The medics didn't really do anything medically to do to him during that ride either since he wasn't severely injured. Of course, the ER bill was to something else choke on and they didn't even set his broken ankle other than to take an x-ray. That had to be done by a specialist later on. All in all, I'd take the Canadian system over ours any day.

It's sad to hear about such an attitude toward people..
In Oregon, actually there is such a thing as a compulsory social and health insurance?

We already have compulsory national health insurance, referred to as either Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act. Soon, Trump will make that option as a thing of the past. Then we will ALL be at the mercy of the capitalist free market.

Slick, I just heard on the news last night that the IRS is now going to accept income tax returns that don't have line 61 filled out. The mandate is still required since the law is still on the books, but the IRS is no longer going to reject tax forms that have that line left blank, effectively no longer fining people who don't have insurance. Thanks apparently to Trumps little January EO it appears. This doesn't affect me for 2016 since I had insurance during that full period. This year though.....

then, you get what you paid for, that's all I can say.

Cat, there is some contradiction in your words. You say that you have a compulsory health insurance and at the same time call an ambulance worth $ 1,500.
That can not be. If you have a health insurance card, you will get almost any medical treatment absolutely free.

sigma wrote:Cat, there is some contradiction in your words. You say that you have a compulsory health insurance and at the same time call an ambulance worth $ 1,500.
That can not be. If you have a health insurance card, you will get almost any medical treatment absolutely free.

I should have said the "health insurance" is currently compulsory in the U.S. That's what's expensive. Actual "health care" is not compulsory, but it's also expensive and you have to pay for things insurance doesn't cover.

callmeslick wrote:then, you get what you paid for, that's all I can say.

Hell, I pay a fortune when I do use it and it's still a bunch of junk.

well, now we're seeing the initial proposed 'replacement'. Thank you, Republicans, it looks like I'll get a tax break I currently don't get, still have the benefits of the fairly low out-of-pocket plan I have. Overall, unless the plan cost skyrockets(no guarantee there, but it already costs $2200/mo), I'll actually make a buck or two. Looks like the Senate GOP is determined to retain Medicare expansions in one group, and another group demands no tax breaks for anyone. My best guesstimate is that the extremes within the GOP dooms this, at least for a long time. Of course, there's going to be massive pressure leading into next years elections, again from multiple fronts. The Koch's are demanding immediate repeal of the ACA without replacement being necessary. The rank and file GOP, especially the Trump voters, want something different but, somehow, better, without being Universal Coverage. Some grassroots groups of moderate income folks are militant over keeping their insurance, and Progressives will still be pitching single payer. This should be some bang-up interesting politics, if it indeed doesn't get trampled with the whole Russian/wiretapping claim/leak thing.

Rep Chaffettz gets into the spirit!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... b7Kz&pfr=1

see, folks, it's just that simple.

Did they remove the death panels?

Vander wrote:Did they remove the death panels?

no, we still have insurance actuaries, like we always did.

Damn. Well at least lottery winners won't steal benefits.

In all seriousness, wtf is up with that? Red Herring to get people mocking something stupid instead of discussing the legitimate weaknesses?

callmeslick wrote:Rep Chaffettz gets into the spirit!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... b7Kz&pfr=1

see, folks, it's just that simple.

I'll bet that bastard and his brethren don't have to make that choice. Plus, do the free market loving Republicans even realize that if people now have to spend most (or at least a sizable proportion) of their income just on health care, that the rest of their vaunted economy is going to begin to suffer, all under theirs and Trump's watch?

Vander wrote:Did they remove the death panels?

There has always been a form of "death panels" as of late in this country. It's called, "If you can't afford our luxurious free market health care, you either go without, suffer or die".

And single payer as being proposed will simply create a huge greedy private system being fed by the taxpayer. And the worst part is…it doesn’t even address all of the problems we have today, such as health providers moving out of rural areas in droves.

My plan addresses an entire list of problems left out by single payer.

Tunnelcat wrote:There has always been a form of "death panels" as of late in this country. It's called, "If you can't afford our luxurious free market health care, you either go without, suffer or die".

oh, it goes far deeper than that. The Actuaries determine who gets what treatments covered, and what drugs are paid for.

Spidey wrote:And single payer as being proposed will simply create a huge greedy private system being fed by the taxpayer. And the worst part is…it doesn’t even address all of the problems we have today, such as health providers moving out of rural areas in droves.

My plan addresses an entire list of problems left out by single payer.

could you summarize your plan here, by way of comparison?

callmeslick wrote:Rep Chaffettz gets into the spirit!!

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... b7Kz&pfr=1

see, folks, it's just that simple.

But, but, but ... I need a new iPhone every month !

but, but, but......howabout when the bills get bad, and you have to drop your insurance? Oh, that will cost you a 30% surcharge on the premium, for ONE YEAR, when you pick the policy back up again, if you can afford to do so. The more I read, this thing absolutely SCREWS anyone making less than maybe 80 grand a year, and is sort of neutral up until you make around 200K, when it becomes beneficial.

more good news from the GOP plan....if, you are an insurance exec:
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html

the new, improved, piece of crap only costs 60 billion dollars a year more than the ACA. Whew! What a bargain, huh?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/healthca ... bfcL&pfr=1

callmeslick wrote:more good news from the GOP plan....if, you are an insurance exec:
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik ... story.html

Well jeez slick, we poor suffering peons just have to pay them more so they'll do a better job and make health care cheaper for us all.

H.R.1275 - World's Greatest Healthcare Plan of 2017

Short title.—This Act may be cited as the “World’s Greatest Healthcare Plan of 2017”.

That sounds like a name that Trump actually came up with. I'm surprised he didn't call it: "The World's Bigliest Bestest Healthcare Plan of 2017".

Personally, I'd label it "Trumpcare" since he now owns it.

It should probably be called Trumpcare so he gets gunshy about signing it, but I wish it could be called Ryancare so it can be tied around his neck.

Trumpcare OR Ryancare, what a lovely piece of stinking crap. I also heard another iteration, Wealthcare.

https://www.thebalance.com/how-could-tr ... ca-4111422

There's also another option on the table right now. Trump has recently stated that IF the GOP can't come up with a plan that they can all agree on as a replacement for Obamacare, leave it alone for now and let it fail under it's own weight, THEN blame Obama and the Dems for the disaster.

saw the current bill called ORyanCare. These folks can't lose the Obama hard-on any quicker than some of the regulars here!!

Vander wrote:Well at least lottery winners won't steal benefits.

In all seriousness, wtf is up with that?

Interesting.

The CBO score is useful not because of the amount of money involved—which really is peanuts—but because it demonstrates that the rule affects the federal budget. That means it can be changed in a reconciliation bill. Which is what Republicans are trying to pass.

Well hell Vander. Trump has to scrape up enough money from somewhere to pay for his military buildup and his great southern border wall.

interesting opinion piece

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... ar-AAo0yqt

You'd think that after 8 years of constantly trying to get rid of Obamacare that the Republicans would've secretly come up with a new plan to be held in reserve for just this eventuality. In reality, it was all bluster. Now it's like Trump gave the job to the 3 Stooges and they were told to get it done in a week just so that he would look good to his supporters.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comme ... re-dilemma

the matter of the longstanding Socialism for the Affluent in the US explained insofar as the healthcare debate is concerned:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisladd/ ... 2a95be186a