DescentBB

I thought of you guys when I found this clip today - on islamism and the refusal of many on the left to live up to your supposed cherished ideals in the name of 'cultural tolerance.'



WATCH the entire clip to get a sense on what my stand is on islam and islamism. Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz present the problem and the SOLUTION to the issue of the left's embrace of islam's theocracy.

If you refuse to educate yourself on the issues at hand- I can do nothing for you and you'll remain a regressive ignorant leftist.

Couldn't resist, could you? Lurking was not enough of a fix? So the first thing you do is come back for one last anti-Islam post.

You know the people here. They aren't going to give you a coherent discussion. Most of them are going to either ignore you, or yell and get nasty and make me do some actual work here. So who are you trying to convince and to what end, other than yourself?

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:38 pm Couldn't resist, could you? Lurking was not enough of a fix? So the first thing you do is come back for one last anti-Islam post.

Did you even watch the video TC?

Like I asked, to what end? Hoping that watching it will make make me into some anti-Islam warrior, or at best, help push for some sort of reformation to bring the religion into modern times? They need to do that themselves. It's their backwards religion. You already know I don't like the religion of Islam anyway, so what's the point? Heck, a lot of Christianity still lives in the past.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:08 pm Like I asked, to what end? Hoping that watching it will make make me into some anti-Islam warrior, or at best, help push for some sort of reformation to bring the religion into modern times? They need to do that themselves. It's their backwards religion. You already know I don't like the religion of Islam anyway, so what's the point? Heck, a lot of Christianity still lives in the past.

No - the point is to show you exactly where I'm coming from. Just watch it. That too hard to do?

I have a full time job which means I don't want to waste 25 minutes of my precious time listening to another one of your bull★■◆● Islam videos.

That and I prefer my entertainment to be you know, entertaining, instead of something that is designed to incite violence.

Thunderbunny wrote:the issue of the left's embrace of islam's theocracy.

Maajid Nawaz wrote:But what makes this path and what makes this challenge easier, is that if those on the regressive left, the fellow travelers of islamism, those who walk along the path justifying theocracy every step of the way in the name of cultural tolerance, is if they stop defending some of the most appalling crimes that we see in modernity, in the modern day and age, just because they talk about America or British or whatever western foreign policy.

I guess I'm just disconnected from whatever is considered "the left" these days, because I have no idea who is being referred to here. Can you give examples of these "fellow travelers of islamism" who "embrace islam's theocracy?"

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:26 pmI guess I'm just disconnected from whatever is considered "the left" these days, because I have no idea who is being referred to here. Can you give examples of these "fellow travelers of islamism" who "embrace islam's theocracy?"

He can't, and neither could Harris (16:30) or Nawaz. They keep throwing around the term "regressive left" but it seems they are simply referring to a vague caricature of SJW. Where is the evidence? I'm highly skeptical. As much as I like Sam Harris, unfortunately it's hard to take him seriously sometimes because his job is to sell books. Islam just happens to be one of his topics. I don't think the claim there is a regressive left in this regard holds up to scrutiny. If they exist at all they must be incredibly small in number. Even Nawaz differentiates between Islam and Islamism, and if you gave this definition to the far-Left I'm sure they would also agree, as Nawaz says, Islam needs reform and Islamism needs to be stopped. I've personally never had a conversation with someone who believes religiously motivated genital mutilation is Ok, so I guess no one I know is a Leftist?

It looks like the book they are promoting is probably really good. They emphasized several times that it is a discussion about how to move forward with Islam's mandatory reformation. (Even since the video was posted 2.5 years ago there have been significant changes in Saudi Arabia of all places.) Unfortunately, these types of videos are too easily misinterpreted by people who get triggered easily.

vision wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:05 pm Islam just happens to be one of his topics. I don't think the claim there is a regressive left in this regard holds up to scrutiny.

There's evidence of it right here on this board. Cries of "ain't got time for that" from Krom for instance. Many on the left don't want to take the time to analyze issues and just jump into "accepted" groupthink.

"You're against islam because it's a brown people religion" is the laziest most racist argument I hear again and again from people on the left.

Nightshade wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 pm "You're against islam because it's a brown people religion" is the laziest most racist argument I hear again and again from people on the left.

You don't have to put out much effort when it proves itself true every time. Stop trying to pretend you aren't a racist sack of ★■◆●.

Against my better judgment, I decided to wander back here, mainly to see if anything has changed. And decided to post.

So here's how this is going to go down. I'll say something here and if I get a hair-trigger, unreasonable, or strawman response, I won't even continue. ACTUALLY read my words. ACTUALLY stop and think. ACTUALLY respond like an adult. I've got a REAL low tolerance for elementary school nonsense.

First: I watched the whole thing. Second: Krom, you're wrong. It's not islamophobic - not this time. Third: TC, you're also wrong; it's not anti-islamic. On the contrary, it's quite reasonable.

It addresses the false dichotomy that is present from a lot of people these days, and that is calling out social crimes from one section that does not worship islam while ignoring the actual human crimes that extremists of islam perpetrate. It addresses the fact that there has been calls for segregation along theocratic lines from those who don't fully understand what they're supporting.

Third; Thunderbunny, you're still being a dick. Saying stuff like this: 'Many on the left don't want to take the time to analyze issues and just jump into "accepted" groupthink.' does not make you look very good. While critical thinking is desperately needed to work through and solve these problems, hitting everyone on the side you don't like with a broad brush does not help. It only serves to galvanize and harden those who you oppose and then we have screaming matches.

Ferno wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pmIt addresses the false dichotomy that is present from a lot of people these days, and that is calling out social crimes from one section that does not worship islam while ignoring the actual human crimes that extremists of islam perpetrate. It addresses the fact that there has been calls for segregation along theocratic lines from those who don't fully understand what they're supporting.

While there is some truth in what you said, I think saying "a lot" and "calls for segregation" highly over-inflate what people on the left side of the political spectrum think. Who calls for? How many is a lot? If you can convince me there is an actual problem here in the United States then I'll gladly concede. Now, Europe is a different story. Their problems with Islam require a different response than in America where 1% of the population are decent human beings who happen to be Muslim -- NOT Islamists. In America, White Nationals are a larger threat and our response to both White Nationals and Islamists should be proportional. (Note: I am aware of my bias having dated a Muslim girl from Syria who never once wore a headscarf or mentioned ill feelings toward Jews the entire time we were together.)

The immediate glaring flaw with any argument perpetuated along those lines is that it's essentially erecting a giant strawman at which to tilt. As vision alluded to, just where is this significant population who's just fine with violent extremism, or subjugation of women's rights, or genital mutilation, or whatever? Can someone point them out to me? Because if they've been hiding in plain sight and I've somehow managed to miss them all this time, I'll gladly reconsider my position. As it stands, I feel fairly safe in asserting that very very few people are overlooking these issues, or the fact that a good chunk of the Muslim world is in sore need of some sort of reformation. But the reason that so many people on the left speak out so stridently against Islamophobia in all its forms is that they've seen (and continue to see) this song-and-dance perpetuated against other groups before, by the same exact people perpetuating it against Muslims now. Inexcusable prejudice, hate speech, literal lynch mobs...these do nothing more than directly justify Islamic extremists' outlandish claims, dumping gasoline on the fire. If "our world" is supposed to be so superior to "their world," maybe we should try taking the goddamn moral high ground for once.

There's also the fact that said people brazenly ignore that religious extremists have existed since mankind first dreamed up its first invisible skygods, or that any sort of Islamic reformation could only be spurred on from within were it to have any real legitimacy. (They also ignore that Christianity had a several-hundred-year head start in its progression.) No matter what simpering fools like TB screech, Islam isn't a scary boogeyman: it's the latest repetition of a millennia-old pattern.

...and I'll continue with more of my personal experience.

While it's true that Islam is unique among today's religions in it's barbarism, let's not forget that the people who fought and defeated ISIS are Muslims, not Westerners. That's a far cry from the "clash of civilizations" narrative. Here was a radical Islamic army ready to take over the world and they were beat down by their brothers. I feel confident saying the West is going to be just fine.

I guess you can say that the average Muslim is closer to an Evangelical Christian than a Protestant, but even within Evangelicals there is a wide range of interpretations from moderate to gay-bashing dogmatism (I have Evangelical family who are loving people and would never disavow a homosexual).

Am I a radical Leftist because I was OK with the fact my Muslim girlfriend's father and brother disowned her because she was too Westernised? There is no law saying they can't. However, there are laws against beating her and I have never met a person Left or Right who thinks Muslims should be afforded this freedom, let alone Sharia Law.

Ferno wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pmFirst: I watched the whole thing. Second: Krom, you're wrong. It's not islamophobic - not this time. Third: TC, you're also wrong; it's not anti-islamic. On the contrary, it's quite reasonable.

I deserve that. I just didn't have time to watch it. I made an incorrect assumption based on TB's past post history. Right now, I still don't have time to watch it, but I'll defer to your observations.

Ferno wrote: ↑Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pmIt addresses the false dichotomy that is present from a lot of people these days, and that is calling out social crimes from one section that does not worship islam while ignoring the actual human crimes that extremists of islam perpetrate. It addresses the fact that there has been calls for segregation along theocratic lines from those who don't fully understand what they're supporting.

Third; Thunderbunny, you're still being a dick. Saying stuff like this: 'Many on the left don't want to take the time to analyze issues and just jump into "accepted" groupthink.' does not make you look very good. While critical thinking is desperately needed to work through and solve these problems, hitting everyone on the side you don't like with a broad brush does not help. It only serves to galvanize and harden those who you oppose and then we have screaming matches.

You just made my case as to why most people here, including me, have a knee jerk negative reaction to the kind of stuff TB normally posts, because he usually places all the blame on those he thinks are the problem right at the start of his posts, anyone left of his ideal center, which is pretty far to the right when anyone tries to nail it down. Plus, once someone like you Ferno, makes a reasonable argument that pokes holes in his far right bubble-sphere, he never continues the discussion in a logical manner. I see it still sits here hanging in the wind like some rotten fruit no one wants to touch.

What I find really hilarious is what TB dubs "leftist" is center-right at best. He's so far gone to one side of the spectrum he's practically looped around to the other.

vision wrote: ↑Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:03 am Am I a radical Leftist because I was OK with the fact my Muslim girlfriend's father and brother disowned her because she was too Westernised? There is no law saying they can't. However, there are laws against beating her and I have never met a person Left or Right who thinks Muslims should be afforded this freedom, let alone Sharia Law.

I personally wouldn't call you radical on this matter, but I would venture to say you may be borderline. Thank you for responding to what I said in an adult way, by the way.

We have problems with parents disowning their children for far less.

pokes holes in his far right bubble-sphere

Which is, fascinatingly, self-healing and self-inflating. It's frightening and awe-inspiring in that capacity.

Vander wrote:Can you give examples of these "fellow travelers of islamism" who "embrace islam's theocracy?"

I really am curious! I'm sure Harris and Nawaz aren't talking about Krom and Tunnelcat.

Ferno wrote: ↑Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:57 pmI personally wouldn't call you radical on this matter, but I would venture to say you may be borderline.

It's true I have been swinging harder to the left as I get older, which surprises me as I came from a "Regan" household, was a registered Republican for years, voted for Bush(s) and Ron Paul, and never once voted for a Democratic presidential candidate.

Vander wrote: ↑Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:17 pm

Vander wrote:Can you give examples of these "fellow travelers of islamism" who "embrace islam's theocracy?"

I really am curious! I'm sure Harris and Nawaz aren't talking about Krom and Tunnelcat.

I think what he's referring to is the acceptance of islam's harsher punishments under the guise of being progressive.