DescentBB

...is this really fair to women?

Rachel McKinnon has entered the history books as the first transgender woman to win a cycling world title.

McKinnon, who races both on the track and the road, won the women’s 35-44 sprint during the UCI Masters Track Cycling World Championships in Los Angeles on Sunday.

Dr Rachel McKinnon was born a biological male but identifies as a trans woman and is a campaigner for trans rights.

Many have congratulated the Canadian, who is also an assistant professor of philosophy, on her win but the victory has also prompted negative response from some.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/late ... tle-397473

From wrestling to cycling to any number of other sports, former men are literally muscling in on women. How is that going to affect the self image of women?

It’s a total crock. Our old friend Joe Rogan talks about it all the time - a male MMA fighter (with 3 children) becomes a woman and proceeds to beat the holy hell out of the women “she” is fighting. Now, I am socially liberal about a lot of things. But this BS thing that biological born male and female humans are not different is utter crap. You wouldn’t say it about lions or great apes why would you say it about humans?

The concept of “gender” being some kind of social construct is fine in the abstract - in life, I know a post-op female who is a lesbian (no joke, ate thanksgiving with “her”). But not in a boxing ring, not in the 100 meter hurdles. It’s just asinine to take politics that far.
Although, the person who won the Moab 200 by 10 hours is a woman. Amazing.
https://calendar.ultrarunning.com/event ... 52/results

TheWhat wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:37 pm It’s a total crock. Our old friend Joe Rogan talks about it all the time - a male MMA fighter (with 3 children) becomes a woman and proceeds to beat the holy hell out of the women “she” is fighting. Now, I am socially liberal about a lot of things. But this BS thing that biological born male and female humans are not different is utter crap. You wouldn’t say it about lions or great apes why would you say it about humans?

The concept of “gender” being some kind of social construct is fine in the abstract - in life, I know a post-op female who is a lesbian (no joke, ate thanksgiving with “her”). But not in a boxing ring, not in the 100 meter hurdles. It’s just asinine to take politics that far.
Although, the person who won the Moab 200 by 10 hours is a woman. Amazing.
https://calendar.ultrarunning.com/event ... 52/results

On average, being a man- and having grown up as a man will give you muscle if not sheer MASS advantage over most women. There are always exceptions to this- but that is exactly what they are. Exceptions.

why do you care about sports

vision wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:10 pm why do you care about sports

Do you care about women?

vision wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:10 pm why do you care about sports

It’s culture war measuring stick. Because sports are competitive and your body type not your intellect matters. If you were born biological male and decided to be a woman trading stocks, or writing code, or making art, or designing cars it wouldn’t matter - technically. Socially you will likely face some sort of backlash. But if you were born a biological male and decided to become a “female” boxer and beat the ★■◆● out of all your opponents that are biological women it’s completely unsporting and lame.

Some on the fringe claim there is NO difference between men and women. It’s almost never true physically. Men and women have different bone structure, muscle mass etc. it has nothing to do AT ALL with discrimination, misogyny, or a patriarchal society - it literally comes down to biology. That’s why sports matter with this debate (no debate if you ask me. These former males winning trophies wouldn’t be in the top 100 if it were against other males. It’s totally weak sauce).

Now that I think about it you’re being facetious.

I can go either way on something like this, mostly just based on size difference and level of success. If the she were physically smaller than the other two cyclists, I probably wouldn't care. If she finished 8th, I kinda think nobody would've even heard about it. I doubt anyone is doing this to gain advantage in athletics. For all but the highest levels of a sport, I don't have much problem, and don't mind accommodating. But gender shouldn't be treated like ethnicity at the highest levels of a sport separated by gender, and I think transgender athletes should accept that. Consideration goes both ways.

Nightshade wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:01 pm On average, being a man- and having grown up as a man will give you muscle if not sheer MASS advantage over most women. There are always exceptions to this- but that is exactly what they are. Exceptions.

You do realize that trans women not only take an estrogen supplement, they also have to take a testosterone blocker (if they haven't had their testes removed). So once a person starts down the road with hormone therapy, bone and muscle mass decrease and fat storage is boosted around the hips and stomach.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... edirect=on

Science provides a clear explanation for why, in many sports, trans women don’t maintain any athletic advantage. Hormone therapy for trans women typically involves a testosterone-blocking drug plus an estrogen supplement. As their testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women see a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and the proportion of oxygen-carrying red cells in their blood. The estrogen, meanwhile, boosts fat storage, especially around the hips. Together, these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism.

We already have women that compete in strength events - weightlifting, shotput, hammer throw, etc.

What's the big frickin' deal?

Transgenderphobia, I guess. Along the same lines as homophobia.

Ferno wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:18 pm We already have women that compete in strength events - weightlifting, shotput, hammer throw, etc.

What's the big frickin' deal?

Who do they compete against? A bunch of biological male weightlifters who couldn’t win so they became women? No. They compete against other biological women. What’s the big deal? It’s totally unsporting. If it is designated an open event then it doesn’t matter at all. If it’s “women’s middleweight boxing” and a former biological male comes through and sets em up and knocks em down like soup cans there’s a problem.

In response to tunnelbat: This is the one area where I don’t believe it’s “phobia”. It’s an unfair advantage that’s being exploited. Why wouldn’t “she” compete against men if it’s to see how great you are? I guess Vander kind of makes sense. It’s not the olympics it’s the Scott county 5k or some ★■◆●.

TC already posted that the "advantage" essentially disappears if the person in question is receiving hormone replacement therapy. Now if you want to make the argument that people who haven't yet undergone HRT shouldn't be able to complete as the gender they identify as, maybe there's a discussion to be had, but it's walking a fine line. Remember how disgustingly Caster Semenya's case was handled? Her most personal and intimate medical details were leaked to a world audience. All for the sake of a ★■◆●ing sporting event.

TheWhat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 7:12 pm In response to tunnelbat: This is the one area where I don’t believe it’s “phobia”. It’s an unfair advantage that’s being exploited. Why wouldn’t “she” compete against men if it’s to see how great you are? I guess Vander kind of makes sense. It’s not the olympics it’s the Scott county 5k or some ★■◆●.

I think it is, when you're dealing with emotional reactions, not thought out responses. You'll have to agree that typically a person's first reaction upon hearing about this very situation, especially from most heterosexual males, would be an emotional one, which is usually a disgust reaction. I think it's along the same vein as the disgust reaction that most heterosexuals, especially males, harbor towards homosexuals. When most people are exposed to someone who doesn't fit their ingrained preconceptions about gender and firmly believe that boys are boys and girls are girls and the sex organs matter, it creates dissonance. It doesn't fit and does not compute. So their first reaction is quick and emotionally based. No thought at all. "GROSS" comes to mind loud and clear. But the secondary response is usually anger, so then they rationalize their thoughts and come up with the unfair competition idea to focus that anger. But, I'm not a professional, so it's just my 2 cents here.

Ok. I’ve never really considered myself a homophobe. Or any phobe for that matter. Well, I do tend to despise trust fund babies but I’ve been proven wrong before. I really don’t think it’s fair in an athletic competition at all for a biological male to just hoist a trophy at a women’s event and expect everyone to be ok with it. I still think it’s BS. Well, something to think about, I guess.

TheWhat wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:12 am Ok. I’ve never really considered myself a homophobe. Or any phobe for that matter. Well, I do tend to despise trust fund babies but I’ve been proven wrong before. I really don’t think it’s fair in an athletic competition at all for a biological male to just hoist a trophy at a women’s event and expect everyone to be ok with it. I still think it’s BS. Well, something to think about, I guess.

You're probably more right than wrong with trust fund babies. Just look at Trump and family. As for the transgender athlete issue, there's probably some truth with that too. It probably depends on how long it's been since they made the change. It takes time for the bones and muscles to readjust to the different hormones, although the hips never convert to a man's shape. A trans man will always have their original woman's wide hip structure and visa versa. That could possibly be an issue in some sports. Whether the athlete keeps the proper hormone levels for their chosen sex is a question too. Someone could easily cheat that way. Maybe there should be a separate trans olympics or something until the verdict is in on whether a sex change can give someone an edge.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:22 pm

Nightshade wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:01 pm On average, being a man- and having grown up as a man will give you muscle if not sheer MASS advantage over most women. There are always exceptions to this- but that is exactly what they are. Exceptions.

You do realize that trans women not only take an estrogen supplement, they also have to take a testosterone blocker (if they haven't had their testes removed). So once a person starts down the road with hormone therapy, bone and muscle mass decrease and fat storage is boosted around the hips and stomach.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... edirect=on

Science provides a clear explanation for why, in many sports, trans women don’t maintain any athletic advantage. Hormone therapy for trans women typically involves a testosterone-blocking drug plus an estrogen supplement. As their testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women see a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and the proportion of oxygen-carrying red cells in their blood. The estrogen, meanwhile, boosts fat storage, especially around the hips. Together, these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism.

Except TC the OP says the doctor only identifies as a female and nothing about treatment. IF he/she didn't have the treatments or surgery then he/she has a distinct and unfair advantage

I freely admit that I think it's weird, and that my opinion can be coming from a place of ignorance. I also think a lot of reaction comes from a place of bad faith and contempt against an abnormal subgroup. Like Nightshade asking "Do you care about women?" I do try to identify that in my own thoughts, and at least be honest about it.

What it comes down to for me, is most trans women are effectively on growth hormones during adolescence. If some country did this with their Olympic athletes, we'd all probably have the same reaction untainted by our feelings toward trans people. The major difference for the transgender is that it isn't an effort to cheat, and they'd likely happily given up whatever sport to have been born the gender they identify with. For that reason, I'd be willing to work toward some accommodations. But it's still problematic at the highest levels where we're already dealing with physical outliers and scrutinizing every possible avenue of advantage. There is room for criticism here that isn't borne out of phobia or denigration, and that has to be acknowledged.

If I'm not mistaken, you can get gender changed on a lot of official documents w/o surgery, but you have to have had the surgery to get a birth certificate change. I imagine the various competition rules are a bit ad-hoc in this regard, so I don't know how that's taken into account. Most of my opinion here is about a post-op trans; ie: been at it long enough to go all the way.

Good to see you wood.

Nightshade wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:19 pm

vision wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:10 pmwhy do you care about sports

Do you care about women?

I do care about women's rights. I also care about transgender rights. But mostly I think arguing about sports is some Kardashian level tabloid garbage. There are real issues of discrimination and violence that women and transgender persons suffer. Arguing about who won a trophy is way low on my list of priorities. Sports are entertainment.

vision wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:04 pm Arguing about who won a trophy is way low on my list of priorities. Sports are entertainment.

If sports are merely 'entertainment,' then why does Title IX exist at all?

vision wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:04 pm There are real issues of discrimination and violence that women and transgender persons suffer. Arguing about who won a trophy is way low on my list of priorities. Sports are entertainment.

I agree, there are more pressing human rights issues than this little race on little bicycles. Ask the women that got 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th. 4th place didn’t even get to go up on the podium. Who cares? It’s not like she busted her hump training everyday for hours on end or something. She’s just here to entertain you. She only got 4th place because a woman with man thighs, ankles, and a man rump completely threw off the balance of the competition. No biggie, she’s just an entertainer after all.

Injustice abounds.

woodchip wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:44 am

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:22 pm

Nightshade wrote: ↑Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:01 pm On average, being a man- and having grown up as a man will give you muscle if not sheer MASS advantage over most women. There are always exceptions to this- but that is exactly what they are. Exceptions.

You do realize that trans women not only take an estrogen supplement, they also have to take a testosterone blocker (if they haven't had their testes removed). So once a person starts down the road with hormone therapy, bone and muscle mass decrease and fat storage is boosted around the hips and stomach.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... edirect=on

Science provides a clear explanation for why, in many sports, trans women don’t maintain any athletic advantage. Hormone therapy for trans women typically involves a testosterone-blocking drug plus an estrogen supplement. As their testosterone levels approach female norms, trans women see a decrease in muscle mass, bone density and the proportion of oxygen-carrying red cells in their blood. The estrogen, meanwhile, boosts fat storage, especially around the hips. Together, these changes lead to a loss of speed, strength and endurance — all key components of athleticism.

Except TC the OP says the doctor only identifies as a female and nothing about treatment. IF he/she didn't have the treatments or surgery then he/she has a distinct and unfair advantage

No argument, that's an issue. If a trans woman hasn't gone through the whole nine yards of converting their bodies with hormones, it's cheating. There needs to be a way to verify hormone treatments and the resulting muscle and bone mass changes. The wrong genitals is a whole different problem. Most trans men don't get the bottom conversion done because medical science just hasn't found a way to create realistic male genitals.....yet.

Is a woman being born with a man's body any different than any other natural advantage that a woman can be born with? At the highest levels, athletic competition comes down to genetic and environmental luck. Why is it more unfair for a woman to win because she was born with a man's body versus for a woman to win because she was born with a rare muscular mutation? I think that this idea that everyone was on a level playing field until trans people came along is a fictitious narrative. Athletics has never been fair.

Nightshade wrote: ↑Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:16 pmIf sports are merely 'entertainment,' then why does Title IX exist at all?

Do your homework.

Jeff250 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:51 pm Is a woman being born with a man's body any different than any other natural advantage that a woman can be born with? At the highest levels, athletic competition comes down to genetic and environmental luck. Why is it more unfair for a woman to win because she was born with a man's body versus for a woman to win because she was born with a rare muscular mutation? I think that this idea that everyone was on a level playing field until trans people came along is a fictitious narrative. Athletics has never been fair.

Yeah, again, the Caster Semenya case. Individuals who were born as and identify as female can have conditions like hyperandrogenism that cause much higher levels of testosterone than normal. Should they be forced to compete against men because of their hormones?

It's refreshing to hear a super-liberal being rational about this kind of issue. xD Adam, you brought up some good points, man.

I want proof that they are competing on a level playing field. You guys already know what I think: there's no such thing as a woman being born as a man, and the idea of gender being a social construct is a social construct.

How would one even create a level playing field? How do we know all females have similar enough biology for sports to be fair? Oh, here we go. XD

How do we know all males have similar enough biology for sports to be fair? I'm thinking along the lines of how Lance Armstrong gained his advantage. He wasn't trans either, just a cheat.

Let's just take a shortcut and ban sports It serves the same purpose as the Roman gladiatorial events and this way nobody would get millions of dollars to do something that kids were into.