DescentBB

Explain.

Because someone almost died.

Land of the free, home of the brave

The department of homeland security is on the record saying the greatest domestic terrorist threat facing the country right now is conservatives.

There is the conservative disinformation sphere online that circulates crazy stuff like Q-anon. The far right themselves who are most often poorly educated and isolated into very homogeneous groups which breeds bigotry, racism and cult like devotion. And republicans who generally run their campaigns sowing fear and division: "socialism!" "immigrants!" "gun control!".

This is a problem on all three fronts. First most conservatives don't even know what socialism is, at the very least they don't grasp that the very road they were driving on while committing this act only exists because of socialism. They are pissed off because the economy shits on them all the time, but they don't understand how economies work which is why they get ★■◆● on in the first place. And republicans keep telling them socialism will make it worse (never mind that doing nothing is what made it so bad in the first place and continues to make it worse).

Then there are the immigrants(minorities). It is easier to organize conservatives if they have a common enemy that doesn't look like they do, and immigrants(minorities) are the perfect target because they are disadvantaged and can't really speak out to defend themselves. So conservatives are constantly told that immigrants(minorities) make the economy worse (even if the rest of the world knows this is totally false).

Finally gun control. Conservatives say democrats want to take away guns which they need to defend themselves from immigrants(minorities)/antifa/socialists, which leads to them hoarding guns, which leads to violence that then gets blamed on immigrants(minorities)/antifa/socialists, which leads to more gun hoarding and more violence.

It is all a self-reinforcing feedback loop and they are totally hooked on it like a drug.

Just look at woodchip or thunderbunny, these are people with extremely unhealthy perceptions of the world. Even if it is unlikely they will do anything themselves, it is totally obvious that they spread and reinforce the extremist right wing lies and propaganda that lead to even more deranged people becoming actual terrorists.

Talk about not understanding socialism. Not every collective spending program qualifies as socialism, the definition has become so convoluted these days just about every government program can fit one.

Socialism is the collective control of government "and" the economy, with the main tenets being the distribution of goods and services based on "fairness" & "equality" instead of market forces.

The interstates were built to enhance the free market, and have little or no relationship to "fairness" & "equality".

But hey, use any definition that lets you sleep at night, hell some people believe a program designed to destroy things (military) is actually socialism.

Well Spidey, Trump has so screwed up our government and thoroughly infected it with lying, butt kissing sycophants willing to do anything for him up and including breaking the law and violating the Constitution, even if Biden wins it'll take more than 4 years to even put back what existed before Trump was elected, so I wouldn't worry one little bit about some socialist haven. But right now, I'd take socialism over the fascist capitalistic authoritarianism that we currently have controlling Washington right now. You've got to understand the absolute fear most Dems have of having 4 more years of Trump. They, and I, fervently believe that his re-election will be the final nail in the coffin of our Democracy. We're already seeing Trump supporters who won't respect the outcome of the election if Trump loses. For all I know, even the liberals won't take it sitting down either and we'll probably have a Civil War. How do you think that will affect your business and the markets Spidey? I'm betting the economic hit from those Covid restrictions will look downright puny in hindsight. Your party enabled this ★■◆●ing monster for the last 4 years, so you're going to have to reap what you've sown no matter who wins. Have fun.

Spidey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:11 am Talk about not understanding socialism.

...

Socialism is the collective control of government "and" the economy, with the main tenets being the distribution of goods and services based on "fairness" & "equality" instead of market forces.

LOL Spidey claims we don't know what socialism is, then gives a single, garbage definition that proves he didn't do even a cursory search for the term. Get lost, loser.

Krom: I'm well aware of the history.

Spidey: This is YOUR party, your side doing this. Explain.

Yes please, EXPLAIN. Your party has the armed right wing patriot militias listed among it's members who are willing to go out and kill government officials when they don't like what they're doing in office. Hell, some of them even hate the police too so don't throw that on the left. If the nationwide lack of ammo availability is an indication, they're loaded for bear. Your party has a president who's deliberately feeding this craziness for his own power and gain, not the well being of this nation. Your party may be the death of this nation and eventually your business. I hope you're happy come 11/3/2020 because everyone is going to be a loser with these armed assholes with delusions of grandeur running around.

How many people do we have to send the CIA to kill and sabotage before you guys understand that socialism can't work?

My party...LOL I haven't been a Republican for over a decade.

And yet you persist in parroting the party lines...

No....I don't.

My point was simply that it's not only the dumb conservatives that don't understand what socialism is...

Conservatives want people to get sick and die from tainted beef because people getting sick and dying from tainted beef is a great market indicator for differentiating the price between beef qualities.

Liberals want regulations governing the safety of meat.

Socialists are ranch hands wanting part ownership of the ranch.

Spidey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:13 pm My party...LOL I haven't been a Republican for over a decade.

You're afraid. You don't get to say 'not my party' when it's inconvenient.

I gave up my party affiliation back during Bush's second term.

And just what the hell would I have to be afraid of?

Spidey, is it safe to say that you consider yourself an "Independent Conservative"? If so, how often do you tow the Republican Party line even though you're not registered as one? When you post here, most lefties would take you for a die hard Republican. Outside of the Republican Party, the only other conservative choice right now is Libertarian because the conservative pickings are pretty lean for any smart old style conservatives that sit outside the current rotten-to-the-core Republican Party. You can't in all seriousness consider Trump a leader worthy of a true conservative's vote either. I'm surmising this because you've never defended Trump in any shape or fashion in your posts like woodchip has, at least that I can remember. Maybe someone will dig something up in a search.

I consider myself an "Independent Liberal", yet the ONLY reason I'm registered as a Democrat is to just keep the the party vultures from pestering me to join one side or the other during the primaries. I'm not wedded to any one party in philosophy other than I lean liberal. I've even voted conservative in the past, when it was the better choice. Hell, I voted for Reagan back in the day (not something I'm proud of though). In the 2016 election, I snubbed Hillary Clinton because I thought she was too entitled and arrogant, so I voted third party. Not that it would have made a difference since Oregon gave her the state win anyway, but knowing what I know today, I would've held my nose and voted for her back then in a heartbeat just to help keep a dangerous corrupt egomaniac idiot like Trump from being be voted into the presidency.

By the way, Socialism is the least of our problems at the moment and not something I'm worried will make it into governmental policy, at least in the near future or with Biden. I'm more concerned about the crazy right wing militias come Tuesday night when the vote hasn't been fully counted on election day like Trump wants and he stirs them up to start a fight. But the younger generation's support of Sanders is a future harbinger and they WILL be the power that eventually shapes our country's future government despite you and every conservative's utter disdain for it. For all you know, Trump's second term and total destruction of our democracy may be the match that lights the socialist revolutionary fuse, especially if he and his party's cohorts manage to destroy that final minuscule bastion of U.S. Socialism, Medicare and Social Security. They're already on the way to doing that with the suspension of the payroll tax due to Covid and unless Biden wins, I don't see it being reinstated once we get past the pandemic. How convenient.

I consider myself a moderate conservative libertarian, with no party affiliations. (if you must have a label) I also hold some liberal social views on drugs and other things.

As far as “towing the Republican line” I don’t even know what that means in any practical way, I didn’t vote for Trump, nor do I support most of his positions, but I do accept him as my president. (and that is not an easy thing, but I gave Obama the same courtesy)

If people on this board see me as a die hard Republican, that’s their problem, not mine if they can’t keep up with someone’s changing viewpoints, as I do admit that when I joined this board, I was a die hard Republican.

That was like a lifetime ago…

Yeah, you have been here a long time I'll grant you that. Longer than me.

In the present political climate, most conservatives see the Dems as extreme leftists and the Dems see the current Republican Party as extreme right wing or even Fascist. As long as we label each other that way, we will never gain a consensus or even compromise. It's us against them. I wouldn't even dream of voting for a conservative ticket or measure right now even if you paid me, although I had no such qualms doing that in the past. I never towed the Democratic Party line either because I think both parties are stodgy, inbred and corrupt. However, the current Republican Party is only a shadow of it's former self and has now metastasized into something horrific, soulless and destructive to our country. You fear Socialism, WE fear Authoritarian Capitalism or outright Fascism, a leader who demands complete loyalty and supplication or else and the destruction of our democracy and rights. Trump is pulling us hard in that direction and cramming it down our throats and the left is starting to pull hard in the opposite direction in reaction. When the rope between us breaks, we ALL will end up in that particular mud hole. It may be Socialism or it may be Fascism and you and I will have no choice.

To make a point and I've griped about this before, I just got a renewal letter for my health insurance. It's a cheap Bronze Plan, but cheap it isn't. They want to jack up my premiums to $902 a month. I make too much income with my retirement account to apply for assistance and even though I can afford it, it's pretty much highway robbery for the little amount that I use the insurance every year. I'm paying out just in premiums far more than I get in return. The ONLY thing this is good for is bankruptcy protection if I get seriously injured or sick. I don't think it's a fair use of my money, but this weird health care market dictates what we all pay, so we pay up or go without. If you're older and don't work and are younger than Medicare age, YOU GET SCREWED. There is no market pressure to control or lower costs right now. It's like a giant pig eating us alive. Trump has been sitting on his hands kissing Putin's ass and enriching himself while in office and has never bothered to bring forth a viable and actual free market alternative for the people of this nation, other than getting rid of the ACA's mandate. You tell me how that's a great free market system when it doesn't even follow normal free market rules? My point is, this sort of unchecked greedy capitalism is what will lead us into a socialist uprising with the younger generation. That generation will gain more and more clout as they get older and angrier and the current older generation will lose theirs as they die off over time. The younger voting electorate WILL force a change. The younger generation wants socialized medicine or Medicare for all if the support for Sanders is any indication, which will certainly lead to desires for other more socialized policies in the future. Either we fix our current health care system to work properly with free market rules or you and I will end up having to deal with a dreaded socialist system before we die because this health care system is the canary in the coal mine. I've only got a couple of months until Medicare. I can't wait to get on it, socialistic system be damned. I may not even buy the Bush capitalist add on, Part C or D, right now either. It's only a $144 a month for A and B.

As for accepting Trump, I would no more accept Trump as our President as Aldolf Hitler, because right now, the 2 are damn near identical and just as dangerous.

The Right can only see the dangers of socialism…so they fear it.
The Left can only see the benefits of socialism, and are enamored with it.

I have said it a thousand times, what we need are good social programs…not socialism.

There is a difference.

Is Norway socialist?

I think that depends on whatever definition of socialist you use.

It's not according to my definition because Norway has a market economy, with social programs that depend on that market economy.

Norway has some of the political agendas of socialism, but does not implement the economical tenets.

So you tell me?

Norway pays its way primarily via a consumption tax, a VAT of 25% that applies to most purchases. As such, it impacts poor folks way worse than rich folks.

So yes, their people get more stuff from their government, but at considerable expense to themselves. Your ideas of having all of that stuff paid for by all of the evil corporations and rich people isn't really the same thing at all.

Seriously, you guys should really stop thinking you know so much. Hearing your explanations of who the 'other side' are and how they think would be hilarious if it wasn't so downright scary.

Actually exchanging ideas and trying to come to solutions that both a) solve or at least make existing problems less so and b) still leave our country as it was intended would be a WAY better approach, but I guess nothing as sane as that'll be happening any time soon.

Vander wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:14 am Is Norway socialist?

I'm sure many here can find sites that have a right wing counter to this article, but here goes. Norway and "Democratic Socialism". It's a totally different animal than what's going on in Venezuela, the usual right wing boogeyman example used to scare people. The main difference is Venezuela's corrupt authoritarian leader and his policies. Since democratic socialism is well "democratic", conservative voters have a chance to remove it and their leaders during the voting process if they don't like what's been implemented as policy. Just as we liberals now have a chance to remove our current corrupt authoritarian leader, Trump. We're getting our chance at doing just that today by voting since last I heard, we are a democracy. But like most authoritarian leaders, Trump doesn't want to respect the vote if he loses. We'll see in the next couple of days....

https://theweek.com/articles/783700/dem ... rway-great

Well, if that article is valid then I stand corrected and Norway is socialist.

But being the sceptic I was born as, I'm going to have to see some proof of their claims.

You know how it is on the internet...

Spidey wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:48 pmBut being the sceptic I was born as, I'm going to have to see some proof of their claims.

The proof is in the article. Their called hyperlinks. Some small percentage of them link to no-name blogs, but those blogs are in turn linked to credible sources. It'll take you a couple hours to go through them all, so you better get started.

Spidey wrote: ↑Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:12 pm
And just what the hell would I have to be afraid of?

Losing support from your friends if you grew the stones to stand up against this tyrannical behaviour.

Look at yourself, you're still using the tired and disproven points. You're still a republican if you talk like that.

My friends already know how I feel about Trump.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:33 pmHealth insurance.

Yeah, I just finished my open enrollment, where premiums went up and coverage went down for everyone in the company. Literally we are all forced to pay more for less coverage than we had last year.

On another medical/healthcare subject. Towards the end of August my mom had a mild hemorrhagic stroke, they have medicare and supplemental insurance so everything is covered which is good because so far just a couple of the explanation of benefits summaries have come in at a total of $185,000. Had medicare and the insurance not covered it, this would have cost their house and change.

What I want to know is, was your opinion of Norway better when you thought they were just a market economy with social programs that depend on that economy? Does the state owning that much of the wealth change your opinion?

I'm pretty sure you've made the whole "social programs depend on the economy" point before, to which I responded "the economy also greatly benefits from the social programs." For the most part, social spending goes right back into the economy.

Anyways, I didn't want to hold Norway up as some model for which we should strive, because Norway isn't the US.

No my opinion of Norway isn't dependent on if they are socialist or not.

Krom wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:05 pm

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:33 pmHealth insurance.

Yeah, I just finished my open enrollment, where premiums went up and coverage went down for everyone in the company. Literally we are all forced to pay more for less coverage than we had last year.

On another medical/healthcare subject. Towards the end of August my mom had a mild hemorrhagic stroke, they have medicare and supplemental insurance so everything is covered which is good because so far just a couple of the explanation of benefits summaries have come in at a total of $185,000. Had medicare and the insurance not covered it, this would have cost their house and change.

Hope she's doing OK. Bleeding strokes are nasty occurrences. I'm seriously considering dumping my insurance for a couple of months until Medicare kicks in. Maybe not the smartest thing to do during Covid, but $902 a month is just way too big a hit for a little less coverage.

Spidey wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:32 pm No my opinion of Norway isn't dependent on if they are socialist or not.

The way you rail on about Socialism, I'd think it would at least form some of your opinion about the country. Would you even want to live there given their system (language aside)?

Actually I Have no real problem with exploiting natural resources for public good, I have always believed that natural resources belong to everyone, and have gotten in trouble with "capitalists" for it.

One of my issues with socialism is when people start to consider my labor a natural resource, or feel the need to go beyond natural resources and desire to nationalize my business, or others.

Spidey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 9:27 am Actually I Have no real problem with exploiting natural resources for public good, I have always believed that natural resources belong to everyone, and have gotten in trouble with "capitalists" for it.

One of my issues with socialism is when people start to consider my labor a natural resource, or feel the need to go beyond natural resources and desire to nationalize my business, or others.

Wonder of wonders, I happen to agree with you on those.

!

Spidey wrote:One of my issues with socialism is when people start to consider my labor a natural resource, or feel the need to go beyond natural resources and desire to nationalize my business, or others.

Labor is a resource that is exploited like any other. Ownership of the means of production decides the exploitation. If you own it, you have complete say. If a democratic entity owns it, you have some say. If capital owns it, you have no say.

I'm not sure I agree with that, as a private contractor I had the choice who I labored for and for how much (as defined by what the marked would bear)

I don't know how capital can own labor, at least not in this country, where you have the choice to leave any job at any time.

If you don't have the marketable skills to make a good living, you can always change that.

So now I have a question.

Is democratic socialism a place where when the oil runs out or the national businesses fail the public has a right to vote your private business to be taken into the collective to keep the goodies flowing?

Because, I’m wondering if a private business owner would be any safer under democratic socialism than tyrannical socialism, when times get tough, considering the fact that business owners are in the minority.

Spidey wrote: as a private contractor I had the choice who I labored for and for how much

As a private contractor, you are likely in a situation where you effectively own your means of production. (though I don't know what you do, so that may not be the case) The value of your labor above the cost of providing the means of your production isn't being extracted by another party as their profits. Taxes are different in that you get something of value in return. (whether you think it's of value is a related but different topic )

I don't know how capital can own labor

Capital owns the means of production, which puts labor in a subservient position.

when times get tough

When times get tough, it's typically better to work together than against each other.

TheWhat wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:53 pm!

The problem is, how do you transition from our capitalistic system where people can risk their own equity and effort to start and build a business on their own in order to make a profit for themselves into a new Democratic Socialist system where business owners are told that their employees must be co-owners of that business and now all profits must be split among said employees when they didn't initially create that business in the first place? There's an economic system transition issue here. I just don't like the idea of forcing business owners who've built up their businesses on their dime and hard work to become cooperatives when they didn't start out that way.

Instead of singing kumbaya at your response I put an exclamation mark. I really think that most people are so busy sharpening their wit on the combative internet that they fail to see they agree on 80% of things.

I’m really sick of the wing nuts on all sides getting all the air time when the rest of us have to start out in defense mode just because we think that you can’t call yourself “prolife” and be for the death penalty - you’re “antiabortion”.