DescentBB

A new virology term I just learned. Does anyone realize that a U.S. non-profit company, EcoHealth Alliance, was in collaboration with both the Chinese Wuhan Institute of Virology AND the Wuhan University Center for Animal Experiment (sic) and that they were apparently engaged in "gain of function" research with bat coronaviruses pre-2019? Read through what The Intercept obtained through the Freedom of Information Act and form your own opinions. The grant money for this non-profit came from the NIH, which Dr. Fauci heads. Remember, Fauci has previously testified to Congress that NO gain of function research has ever been funded by the NIH, when it possibly WAS (depending on someone's definition) through this non-profit from according to this new information. But my question is, what in the hell was going on in China that was being backed by U.S funding at the behest of the NIH and why did it take a Freedom of Information lawsuit to bring it to light? Makes one wonder what other research dirt is hidden in the bowels of the NIH waiting to be dug up for all to see.

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/09/cov ... -research/

https://www.c-span.org/video/?511511-1/ ... t-covid-19

I'm not trying to smear Dr. Fauci, far from it since he's a respected doctor and virologist. However, Senator Rand Paul has gotten a bee up his butt and is trying his damnedest to do just that right now without any solid evidence. No emails or other damning information at all so far. In fact, Rand Paul is single highhandedly setting back important research we now NEED more than ever in the study of modifying viruses by attacking Dr. Fauci with lies of his own.

https://theintercept.com/2021/07/27/cov ... -research/

Glad to see you're digging up some facts on a a favored person in the Dems admin. And it is not smearing when a public figure is exposed. Lets add this in: PETA is not very happy with him ans want him to resign.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/peta-calls-on-dr-fauci-to-resign-over-puppy-experiments/ar-AAQqAYA

Do you even know what Gain of Function research is used for and how long it has been around before it became a Republican catchphrase?

If you look it up and filter out all the bull★■◆● conservative fear mongering it appears to be quite boring and ordinary research, except for when it involves research on pathogens that infect humans where it is internationally regulated pretty strictly which likely makes it even more boring. Although we have no idea how well China actually complies with said regulations or enforcement of them, perhaps they are too busy doing ordinary boring human rights violations authoritarian governments are so fond of to make sure they don't leak deadly viruses into the general population. My distrust of anything to do with the Chinese communist party/government runs pretty deep, but it isn't like all gain of function research is automatically evil.

It is entirely possible that Fauci really didn't know about any of it because it is completely boring and tedious ordinary research that easily blends in to "vaccine research" in bureaucratic documents, and or its existence was obscured with that method by the Chinese government because like all authoritarian governments they don't trust anyone including themselves so everyone tries to hide everything they do.

Please don't amplify this sort of conspiracy bull★■◆● TC. You're better than that.

Krom, politicians will take any catchphrase and weaponize it for gain if they see a benefit. The left can be guilty of doing that as well, just not in this case.

Conspiracies sometimes do have a basis in some small fact and it's the NIH's own fault for even getting into this research WITH the damn Chinese of all countries. THAT'S what pisses me off, not the research. The Intercept is no right wing junk pusher either. The fact is that we WERE working with those Chinese entities through a U.S. non-profit, using public money by the way, and ONE of those entities was sloppy with their containment procedures and now we have a years long world wide pandemic. What's worse is that the Chinese government is actively telling their people that Covid came from Fort Detrick and the U.S., not Wuhan. If someone could screw something up and not take responsibility for it, the Chinese would be at the head of the pack. I'm not connecting the 2 situations either because there is NO PROOF that they were related. However, WE are up to our eyeballs in it now since we WERE working with them. And those entities WERE doing gain of function research on coronaviruses, which smells to high heaven to conspiracy loving nutcases everywhere. And conservatives need to quit making up bull★■◆● about Dr. Fauci since Rand Paul has NO PROOF either in any form or fashion and is smearing a talented researcher for monetary gain on his stupid website, all based on this very hazy coincidence. In fact, I hope Fauci sues Paul for defamation. I certainly would. Rand Paul is abusing his power of office to make money during a time when people are dying from a pandemic and our economy is suffering. Maybe Rand Paul needs to focus his attention on THAT first, the bastard. Like Krom said, in the bureaucratic scheme of things, all this probably looked like boring mundane research that Fauci never really looked into, until NOW of course since it's currently VERY relevant.

But my main question is, aside from even performing gain of function research on coronaviruses in the first place, should the U.S. even be working with what is essentially a hostile communist nation-state on virus modification research and sneaking around trying to keep it private like they're doing something bad? It's this kind of crap that feeds the crazies who love government conspiracies, so the NIH only has itself to blame. This is the only reason I posted it after seeing Rand Paul and a couple of his Republican cronies be absolute asswipes towards Fauci while grilling him on the news and so I looked into it.

And woodchip, the same goes with Fauci on puppy experiments. I doubt he even knew the details of that research given the mountains of research the NIH does all the time. PETA needs to be careful as well. One man cannot possibly oversee everything that such a huge entity works on every day and maybe that's the real problem. A government agency that's grown so large it has no accountability to Congress or even by it's leader. That's where people's ire should be directed. Plus your link is parsed weird and is FUBAR.

Yes, we damn well should be working with China on virus research, because we've seen multiple respiratory viruses arise from that region in the past, and we know all too damn well that a small regional issue can swiftly become a multi-year global one. I am not educated enough on the subject to know if the potential rewards of gain-of-function research outweigh the risk, as even experts in the field appear to be divided on the issue, but I do know that we need to better understand these sorts of viruses and how to combat them, because it's inevitable that there will be another pandemic of some kind in the future.

Also that ★■◆●ing chode Rand Paul isn't worth giving the time of day.

A virus doesn't give a ★■◆● about political affiliation. China will perform research if they want to, they have the right just like we do, cooperating and having some control over the process to try and make sure it is safe and ethical and also sharing in results is better than strict tribal behavior.

Oh, I agree with both of you. But you're thinking in an altruistic world where intentions are always good. Yes, most of the nasty viruses come from that region because of the climate and the fact that people and animals intermingle daily and yes, that area is where the research should be done. But altruism towards the U.S. isn't in China's best interests right now with the U.S. complaining about the repression of Hong Kong and Tibet and the other religious groups on the mainland. Then you have Taiwan which is a real thorn in their side and their military expansion into the South China Sea. The Chinese government is repressive and looking out for itself, not the world. I'm guessing military desires for this research in China is far more important in their grand scheme of things. We're making a deal with the devil by working with them. But I guess it's better than if they were off on their own in secret (which they're probably doing anyway). We just have to hope they share everything during that research, which I'm guessing is slim to nil.

It's possible the virus escaped from a Chinese lab, but I don't think that it was artificially engineered or modified.

I hate to jump into this, but Tunnelcat seem to get suckered into right-wing conspiracy ★■◆● once in a while. While I'm not a fan of China, we absolutely must work closely with them in every scientific endeavor. The reason should be obvious, but if not, it's because China is objectively one of the greatest countries in the world (even thought their human rights policies are abysmal). I've worked in research for years (generally chemistry and biology). Science is an international endeavor, and while a lot of my co-workers are European, a significant number are East Asian, and of those many are Chinese. They are just as brilliant as their PhD holding peers.

News flash about bats and cornonavirus: bats are a great place to look for viruses that could infect humans, and they are studied everywhere around the world. When someone says "they studied bat coronaviruses in Wuhan" I think "So? we study bat coronaviruses in dozens of countries." Given that SARS 1 originated in China, and China is a huge place with laboratories everywhere, it really just looks like coincidence to me rather than a lab leak. And besides, if it was a lab leak nothing changes.

Finally, if you want to feel super smart about gain of function research, I have a podcast for you! Last April, Sam Harris rebroadcast a series by author and really smart guy Rob Reid titled "Engineering the Apocalypse". The podcast is a hefty 3h:41m, but it's broken up into four segments. I listened to it over four days and let me tell you it is equally frightening and uplifting (and will make you feel super smart). Here is a direct link to the audio for you to download. I recommend everyone on this board listen to it to have your mind blown.

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:56 pm It's possible the virus escaped from a Chinese lab, but I don't think that it was artificially engineered or modified.

Oh god, are we going to have to deal with this nonsense now?

vision wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:09 pmNews flash about bats and cornonavirus: bats are a great place to look for viruses that could infect humans, and they are studied everywhere around the world. When someone says "they studied bat coronaviruses in Wuhan" I think "So? we study bat coronaviruses in dozens of countries." Given that SARS 1 originated in China, and China is a huge place with laboratories everywhere, it really just looks like coincidence to me rather than a lab leak. And besides, if it was a lab leak nothing changes.

Yeah, it's one of those cases where the causality is likely mixed up. In other words, did the COVID-19 virus originate in Wuhan because there's a coronavirus lab there? Or do people just build coronavirus labs where there is a high risk of coronavirus? It's like blaming earthquakes on seismometers or something.

With that said, I don't think anyone can completely eliminate the lab leak theory, but it being merely possible isn't enough for me, and I would want to see some evidence before seriously considering it. I realize that's not going to stop a conspiracy theorist though.

Jeff250 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:58 am...I don't think anyone can completely eliminate the lab leak theory, but it being merely possible isn't enough for me...

Precisely. My stance is: Lab leak? Possible, accident's happen and nothing changes if this is true. SARS-COV-2 as a product of intentional gain of function research? Probably not, but there is a little gray area when it comes to gain of function and sometimes dangerous mutations happen on accident in normal, benign research. SARS-COV-2 as a Chinese engineered bio-weapon? Absolutely not. There is nothing about covid-19 that makes it a good weapon. Maybe an incredibly bad and useless weapon maybe, but I give China more credit than that.

vision wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 4:09 pm I hate to jump into this, but Tunnelcat seem to get suckered into right-wing conspiracy ★■◆● once in a while. While I'm not a fan of China, we absolutely must work closely with them in every scientific endeavor. The reason should be obvious, but if not, it's because China is objectively one of the greatest countries in the world (even thought their human rights policies are abysmal). I've worked in research for years (generally chemistry and biology). Science is an international endeavor, and while a lot of my co-workers are European, a significant number are East Asian, and of those many are Chinese. They are just as brilliant as their PhD holding peers.

News flash about bats and cornonavirus: bats are a great place to look for viruses that could infect humans, and they are studied everywhere around the world. When someone says "they studied bat coronaviruses in Wuhan" I think "So? we study bat coronaviruses in dozens of countries." Given that SARS 1 originated in China, and China is a huge place with laboratories everywhere, it really just looks like coincidence to me rather than a lab leak. And besides, if it was a lab leak nothing changes.

Finally, if you want to feel super smart about gain of function research, I have a podcast for you! Last April, Sam Harris rebroadcast a series by author and really smart guy Rob Reid titled "Engineering the Apocalypse". The podcast is a hefty 3h:41m, but it's broken up into four segments. I listened to it over four days and let me tell you it is equally frightening and uplifting (and will make you feel super smart). Here is a direct link to the audio for you to download. I recommend everyone on this board listen to it to have your mind blown.

I'm not trying to propagate a right wing conspiracy theory. There's no proof that U.S. backed research led to Covid 19 and no proof Dr. Fauci even knew about that particular research. I'm not even against gain of function research, since it's obviously needed for the continued health of the human race. There ARE indications that Covid 19 came from that same lab where we were in partnership research with the Chinese studying novel coronaviruses in bats. All I posted about was the not so public connection between a U.S. research non-profit, the NIH and the Chinese Wuhan Lab who were conducting gain of function research with coronaviruses. It's theorized that same lab had an employee who accidentally became infected, either through carelessness or accident and brought out a mutated coronavirus into the general Chinese population which resulted to it's spread around the world. By the way, the U.S. can't even verify this since the Chinese are covering up any investigations and hiding any results, which is another red flag to never trust them with anything. I also never said this little "lab accident" was something done on purpose or that Covid 19 was engineered either. However, when it takes a Freedom of Information lawsuit to bring to light that we were working with the Chinese this type of research, then something smells no matter which way you parse it. Not all people or governments are so altruistic, even our own. There are those in this world who'd just as soon turn something beneficial to man into a deadly weapon instead.

Personally, I disagree with you vision on being in a research partnership with the Chinese. Their government would just as soon use the world to build themselves into a global economic powerhouse and then bend everyone to their will. I've got a Chinese National friend who's now a U.S citizen who would vehemently disagree with you about that as well. We can just as easily do that research on our own in our own country, Europe, South Africa or even other Asian countries without having to worry about some repressive government's ulterior motives. Bats are native to most countries worldwide and they all pretty much carry coronaviruses and other nasty viruses without ill effect to themselves. We have a large pool of bats to choose from and can obtain them worldwide and keep them for study. Besides, studying the viruses in bats is important, but it's the research into what makes their immune systems so "super" and it's ability to keep most of the viruses they contract in the wild from causing a runaway inflammatory response in their bodies and making them sick that's REALLY vital. That's necessary because bats are little flying mobile reservoirs for most of the deadly viruses on the planet.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7025585/

By the way, it makes no difference where we do the research on these viruses (other than the hostility of any participating government towards the U.S. which I think is very important to consider) because researchers in the U.S. can make similar mistakes that the Wuhan Lab made. Since our modern world is so interconnected, any accidental release of any airborne virus anywhere will get itself spread around the world in a matter of weeks with modern air travel. Here's an example of one of our own screw ups. It's a good thing this form of this particular virus wasn't lethal to humans. Plus, I was actually in Reston, Virginia at just about that time too.

http://virus.stanford.edu/filo/ebor.html

Tunnelcat wrote:I'm not even against gain of function research, since it's obviously needed for the continued health of the human race.

What? No. I don't know what you've been reading but this is 100% false. Please listen to the podcast I linked above to change your mind.

Tunnelcat wrote:...the Chinese are covering up any investigations and hiding any results, which is another red flag to never trust them with anything...Their government would just as soon use the world to build themselves into a global economic powerhouse and then bend everyone to their will.

I don't want to be mean but you seem to be not using your brain here. First, there is no country in the world that would allow the type of investigation you are looking for so I don't know why you'd single out China. Second, China already is an economic powerhouse, and by some metrics has already surpassed the United States.

Also, please don't try to educate me with links to papers on the NIH website. It's you that haven't done their homework.

I was referring to the stymied or outright blocking of investigations by the WHO on the possible origins of Covid-19. Cases of it first appeared in Wuhan, so it probably originated from there. Don't you think it's in the world's best interest to find out if the origins of this virus were due to either an animal to human contact jump, or more troubling, a lab escape of a virus they were studying? Since a U.S. entity was in a working relationship with the Chinese on coronavirus research in the same suspected lab in Wuhan, why are they being so secretive towards the WHO if the world has suspicions that this virus may have come from that very lab, whether or not it was a manipulated or natural mutation? If the Chinese are being supposedly open with international co-research, they're sure being secretive about THIS particular coronavirus out of all the coronaviruses we were both supposedly studying.

https://apnews.com/article/united-natio ... f7a14d2955

And the U.S. isn't the only one dabbling in Covid conspiracy theories. On the heels of this stymied WHO investigation, THIS is what is going around in China, a little government and nationalist sponsored propaganda to stain U.S standing in the eyes of the Chinese people. So the Chinese government is happy to shovel out truckloads of blame on the U.S. while at the same time blocking any attempts to find the true source of Covid, even if it eventually turns out it was just a little zoonosis at work. Why work to cover this up AND release loads of propaganda if that was the real case? Does this sound like a cooperative and open partner in research when at the same time they're trying to cover something up? Not to me by a long shot. No mea culpa on their part at all. This is fact. Covid first showed up in humans in Wuhan, China, not the U.S., so it started there for reasons unknown at this point, period. And this is why I don't trust their government any farther than I can throw them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58273322


As to the podcast, I will take the time to watch it when I get done with some projects I'm trying to finish. It's been hectic. This kind of science does fascinate me. I'm obviously a little uniformed as to the type and importance of this research.

Are the investigations being blocked, or is there literally nothing there to find? Can you tell the difference? If you can't, then you are engaging in exactly the same type of conspiracy theory bull★■◆● that the Chinese are in claiming it started in a military base in the US.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:12 pmDon't you think it's in the world's best interest to find out if the origins of this virus were due to either an animal to human contact jump, or more troubling, a lab escape of a virus they were studying?

It literally makes no difference if the virus jumped from animals or was a lab accident. I don't care at all. What if it was an accident? What then? What does that change? What does the world look like if the accident happened in China or in the US or Israel or Nigeria? I don't understand why anyone who isn't a virologist would care about this.

vision wrote:I don't understand why anyone who isn't a virologist would care about this.

Probably just a longing for a direction in which to aim the negative emotions the last couple years have produced.

Aim it at the people who let this thing run rampant.

Krom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 6:33 am Are the investigations being blocked, or is there literally nothing there to find? Can you tell the difference? If you can't, then you are engaging in exactly the same type of conspiracy theory bull★■◆● that the Chinese are in claiming it started in a military base in the US.

They're being blocked. Once any whiff about the WHO investigating a "hypothetical" lab leak of the virus from a Chinese lab came to the forefront, the Chinese authorities stopped all pretense at cooperation and then started in on their propaganda campaign against the U.S. like a bunch of petulant 2-year olds. The WHO can't even look at the lab or what it does as research. When someone hides something, there's usually something to hide and that's what fuels conspiracy theories everywhere. Hell, most of the searches on this topic result in right wing websites with grandiose BS of doom in their headlines. But there's just enough validation that the shadows can't hide everything. Even with that in mind, the truth will probably never be discovered and the potential for this happening again is at 100%. Before you snark about this topic, just remind yourself of the millions of people who have needlessly died worldwide and the severe disruption of the world's economy and our daily lives, all due to this one single virus that came from who knows where and we can't even find out the why and where. Even if it's origin was zoonosis or an accident, we as a species need to learn from our mistakes and be better prepared the next time a deadly virus like this ends up in just one human being who doesn't know he or she has it and travels somewhere. We didn't learn our lesson in 1918 and we still haven't learned it NOW and we're supposedly smarter. Just think about what's going to happen if a deadly virus is ever released by someone on purpose.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... eak-theory

Ferno wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 9:37 pm Aim it at the people who let this thing run rampant.

To be fair Ferno, even if we'd had a president who acted like an adult back in 2019 and took quicker action, we'd STILL have a problem. With modern air travel, there's just no way to stop a virus like this from getting loose unless we lock everything down tight for at least a month and test everyone like crazy. It ain't ever going to happen in reality. No one was willing to go that far to mitigate this thing and no one had the testing capacity either (we still don't) and besides, with Trump, his actions as president made things far worse. Sure he started the major vaccine program, but then hobbled it with his incessant ranting about how the vaccine was bad at his boner rallies, poisoning the minds of his zealots, even when he himself received it. What an idiot. He takes credit for it, then tears it down like a kid having fun knocking down a fort he just built out of blocks. I mean, just look at the crazy reactions when we try to mandate mask wearing in schools. Vaccine mandates garner an even more severe reaction. Geez.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:57 pmOnce any whiff about the WHO investigating a "hypothetical" lab leak of the virus from a Chinese lab came to the forefront, the Chinese authorities stopped all pretense at cooperation and then started in on their propaganda campaign against the U.S. like a bunch of petulant 2-year olds.

This isn't what the article you linked to says. Why are you using this article to back up a statement that isn't true? Did you even read it, or do you just type what you believe in a search engine then post a link with a headline you like?

I don't accept that TC.

The richest country in the world not being able to do a full on lockdown? I call bull★■◆●. It's not that America couldn't. It's that America wouldn't. Almost a million dead, no one bats an eye. A slight disturbance to the economy? Everyone loses their ★■◆●.

Australia not only had travel restrictions into their country, they had travel restrictions between states. They just booted out the number one tennis player in the world on the eve of the Australian Open for refusing to play by the rules, and the vast majority of their population supported it. It's entirely possible to have done a more stringent lockdown, as indeed many European nations have done and are doing. It's just that our teeming masses of drooling rednecks ★■◆● about MUH FREEDUMBS and would probably start shooting at random over it.

Ferno wrote:The richest country in the world not being able to do a full on lockdown? I call bull★■◆●. It's not that America couldn't. It's that America wouldn't.

Hmm, you make it sound like electing a vindictive reality show host who doesn't give a ★■◆● about anyone to be President wasn't a great idea.

Also a country run by corporations is going to have a really hard time convincing corporations to lock down. They can't make money if people are staying home, but they can still make plenty of money even if some non-trivial portion of the workforce dies from a virus (and almost all of them get severely ill from it).

Vander wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:34 pm

Ferno wrote:The richest country in the world not being able to do a full on lockdown? I call bull★■◆●. It's not that America couldn't. It's that America wouldn't.

Hmm, you make it sound like electing a vindictive reality show host who doesn't give a ★■◆● about anyone to be President wasn't a great idea.

hmmmm... did I do that?

vision wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:55 am

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:57 pmOnce any whiff about the WHO investigating a "hypothetical" lab leak of the virus from a Chinese lab came to the forefront, the Chinese authorities stopped all pretense at cooperation and then started in on their propaganda campaign against the U.S. like a bunch of petulant 2-year olds.

This isn't what the article you linked to says. Why are you using this article to back up a statement that isn't true? Did you even read it, or do you just type what you believe in a search engine then post a link with a headline you like?

The second phase of the WHO study indicated they were looking into the lab leak theory. The Chinese don't like that at all and said "no". So that's where we stand right now. From that link:

China cannot accept the World Health Organization's plan for the second phase of a study into the origins of COVID-19, a senior Chinese health official said Thursday.
Zeng Yixin, the vice minister of the National Health Commission, said he was "rather taken aback" that the plan includes further investigation of the theory that the virus might have leaked from a Chinese lab.

Ferno wrote: ↑Sun Jan 23, 2022 5:55 pm I don't accept that TC.

The richest country in the world not being able to do a full on lockdown? I call bull★■◆●. It's not that America couldn't. It's that America wouldn't. Almost a million dead, no one bats an eye. A slight disturbance to the economy? Everyone loses their ★■◆●.

No, we COULDN'T. You don't understand the outlandish mindset some Americans have on personal liberty. Half this country thinks their freedom is more important than keeping everyone else in this country from getting sick and dying. Our nation's population consists of about 50% self-centered, self-important heathens, mostly conservatives too, who'd rather believe a moronic ex-president and conspiracy theories that support their point of view that it's their body, their freedom to do what they want. To them, ★■◆● everyone else, my body is my temple. They want their freedom to spread a deadly virus no matter what and everyone else can just stay home if they're afraid of Covid. What a load of crap! You want to know how many of these very same people change their minds when it gets personal and one of THEIR relatives gets sick and dies? Quite a few actually, but not enough. Vaccines? Oh boy, another can of worms from the very same stupid people. They're even out there all around the country right now vociferously and sometimes armed, protesting against free vaccines at local free clinics. I'd like to strangle every ★■◆● who walks into some store without a mask because they think it's their freedom to do what they want.

How long has this pandemic been going on? Couple of years? If we'd locked down for at least a month and stopped ALL world travel during that time, fewer people would've died and it would've been far less painful to the economy than the inflationary spiral we currently have right now. Some of that inflation was created by the very government handouts to bolster the economy too. We've created the economic disaster we're living in right now and it's going to take years more for it to settle it down. Biden's even out there on audio calling a Fox News reporter names for asking him about it. Must be getting under his skin poor old baby. That isn't going to help the Dems one little bit either.

You almost never hear that most Republicans are vaccinated, only that most of the unvaccinated are Republicans. What's weird to me is that "both sides" seem to push the latter talking point while treating the former like a dirty secret.

Tunnelcat wrote:We've created the economic disaster we're living in right now and it's going to take years more for it to settle it down.

This isn't something that has happened recently, but Covid certainly exposed a few things. The money cannon that massively (but temporarily) reduced poverty and provided some worker power in the job market doesn't tell all of the story. It certainly doesn't say anything about the brittle supply chains we've created or the corporate consolidation we've refused to stand in the way of. Is it inflation when prices go up at a time when profits are also going up?

TC: You just told us exactly why america would not do the right thing.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:02 pmSome of that inflation was created by the very government handouts to bolster the economy too.

Stop. This is another right wing lie to promote austerity. There is no evidence the measly $2000 Americans got in 2020 has anything to do with Inflation in 2021. If anything more handouts would have reduced inflation. Almost all the inflation we see today has to do with supply chain and labor issues.

Wow.

How did I miss that?

TC, saying the government handouts caused inflation is insane.

First, it's not a handout - that implies the lazy welfare queen stereotype. It's a stipend designed to help people. People like you. Like me. So you don't starve or lose your home. You gotta drop calling it a handout.

Second, those don't cause inflation. What causes inflation is the sudden spike in prices corporations put in place during the pandemic. Also, calling it inflation is a lame-duck attempt to mask price gouging. It's not inflation when corporate profits hit the moon. That's market manipulation.

The current inflation is a result of supply constraints, it is like elementary school economics (if you had been paying attention). Low supply + high demand = high prices.

That's a lot like saying your burger will now cost 30 bucks because wages went up a bit.

It doesn't track given the recent trends in pricing. If upper management and higher position salaries were close to workers' wages, the supply/demand argument would make sense. However, their salaries, bonuses and packages have been skyrocketing for the past ten years, moreso than they were twenty years prior. The stuff we buy has become more and more expensive because it's going to their bank accounts instead of paying for resources and labour.

When the lack of supply resolves itself and prices increase further, that will be the evidence you need that the supply/demand theory is completely full of holes.

Also, US citizens don't get "handouts." That's our money being returned to us, our return on investment. Anytime you hear someone describe money going back to taxpayers as some kind of freebie or bonus you know immediately they don't know what they are talking about (or they are lying).

I'm reminded of the recent study that showed that making a school lunch program universal increased the participation and subsequently the health of those already eligible for the program because it reduces the stigma of taking a "handout."

Krom wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:57 pm The current inflation is a result of supply constraints, it is like elementary school economics (if you had been paying attention). Low supply + high demand = high prices.

Is that kinda like shutting down the Keystone Pipeline and then seeing the price of gas jump? And then having a totally stupid president call on OPEC to increase production in hopes of getting the price to come down. How well did that work Mr Senile Idiot? Gee, try opening our pipelines instead

woodchip wrote:Is that kinda like shutting down the Keystone Pipeline and then seeing the price of gas jump?

I challenge you to produce anything that would show a correlation between a pipeline upgrade that hasn't been brought online yet and the transitory price of refined fuel.

OK guys, uncle.

https://api.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... -spending/

Unfortunately, just like the inflation that plagued Jimmy Carter in the 1980's, this round of inflation will plague Biden whether it's his fault or not since it's happening on his watch. We got hit with 14% mortgage interest rates back then when we were buying our first home, which took a large chunk out of both our paychecks and like a lot of people, we blamed Carter for it.

I have to admit, that money was sorely needed for struggling households when a lot of businesses closed or went under. The loss of restaurants alone is staggering. However, it still may have added to the current inflationary spiral we've got now in some a small proportion, but supply chain disruptions from manufacturers in foreign countries, job market issues and high consumer spending are the driving forces right now. In fact, those payments probably kept the economy from going down the toilet.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/effect-s ... 06517.html

And woodchip, we were getting along just fine without that damn pipeline BEFORE Covid, so it wouldn't have made a difference because people quit driving when Covid first hit which caused demand to collapse. Oil producers furloughed or cut staff and production as a result. They were too slow to ramp production back up when people got back into their cars, due to either a lack of workers and/or transport drivers, so prices have skyrocketed. There was also the Russian hacker ransomware attack that shut down the East Coast pipeline, which I'm sure an operational Keystone pipeline would've been just as vulnerable to as well. I'm beginning to wonder if these greedy bastards are raising prices on purpose just to take advantage of us consumers at this point. They usually just rotate price hikes around the country so the whole nation doesn't notice, but we're all getting gouged right now and we're noticing.

Every time I drive my electric car past a gas station while prices are increasing I laugh "Hahaha! Yes! Higher!".