Comments on new build components?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:14 pm

https://pcpartpicker.co edit: ooh fer cryin' out loud ........

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:37 pm

What the context... just replacing a CPU?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:20 pm

oooff. sorry got interrupted mid-post construction and didn't think it landed. apparently it did.

Purpose of the system is pretty much what I have now, mostly Lightroom, Photoshop, etc, family history apps, and other stuff. Don't dabble much in gaming
This system build is to sort of match what I do now, with an ssd for OS and programs and a pair of disks for data storage and internal backup.
Just need to modernize from my 2012 build with Win7. It's a bit overkill but at my age I'm not sure i'll need to do this again anytime soon

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/dissent55 ... iew=8FY8ZL

CPU Intel Core i9-13900K 3 GHz 24-Core Processor
CPU Cooler Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler
Motherboard Gigabyte Z790 AORUS ELITE AX ATX LGA1700 Motherboard
Memory Corsair Vengeance 64 GB (4 x 16 GB) DDR5-6200 CL32 Memory
Storage Western Digital Blue 8 TB 3.5" 5640 RPM Internal Hard Drive
Storage Western Digital Blue 8 TB 3.5" 5640 RPM Internal Hard Drive
Storage Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 3.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive
Video Card Gigabyte EAGLE OC GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB Video Card
Case Corsair 4000D Airflow ATX Mid Tower Case
Power Supply SeaSonic FOCUS PLUS 850 Gold 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply
OS Microsoft Windows 11 Pro Retail - Download 64-bit

edit - any idea if this cooler will be up to the job, or will more beef be required?
And how does one go about making motherboard choices these days? as long as it's compatible with everything else, does the brand matter that much?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Jun 11, 2023 9:31 pm

and also, how does one determine if there's enough clearance between to RAM and installed CPU and cooler; or if the other components won't bump into something else in the case?
There is a warning about this when you list the chosen components at pcpartspicker but I can't make out if there's a way to check for component clearances from that web site.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 1:07 pm

I'm starting to get the idea that air cooling for the i9-13900k may be problematic, so i'm not married to the raptor lake cpu. I was looking at the Noctua NH-D15 also but some sites seem ok with it for the i9 and others not so much.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:59 pm

I did a quick scan and it appears the 13900k is the clear winner in productivity with lightroom and photoshop. Likely do to its 24 core 32 thread architecture giving it the most brute force compute just edging out AMDs 7950X.

There is nothing in a modern consumer socket that a NH-D15 cannot cool adequately at stock or even mildly overclocked settings. Although if you are worried about clearance consider a NH-D15S instead. The Noctua site should have a fairly comprehensive motherboard/case compatibility listing somewhere, possibly buried in a PDF on the product page. That being said, the 13900k is an extraordinarily hot processor, it has practically no power limit in stock configuration and will pull as much power as it possibly can for as long as it has the thermal headroom to do so. Basically the processor is designed to boost till it hits its thermal limit and then stay there forever, so regardless of liquid or air it is going to find its way to the thermal limit and park itself there under sustained loads. This is just how computing works now with modern boosting behavior.

Gigabyte motherboards have an ongoing critical security issue involving a UEFI setting that downloads and installs drivers and gigabyte apps on a windows install automatically, disabling it is all that is necessary to mitigate it. The setting is called "APP Center Download & Install", disable this in BIOS before installing your OS and it will be fine, beta BIOS updates have corrected the flaw (however it should remain disabled as one would never want said software anyway because like all motherboard vendor software it is complete garbage).

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Jun 17, 2023 10:48 pm

Thanks Krom. Looks like Noctua web site CPU compatibility is fine for the i9-13900K; the Corsair case should be just fine with 66mm of clearance for the 45mm high ram modules. The NH-D15S also lists compatibility with a 120 mm fan instead of the usual 140 mm; I suppose I could add a 120mm fan to the ram side (dual fan mode?) unless that would make things worse with the stock 140mm center fan. I guess I should try it without the extra fan first anyways.

(and Noctua's web site tabs for each of their coolers which answers my question in earlier post about how to figure ram and case clearance specs - check to cooler's web site for their compatibility info)

Thanks for the heads-up about the App Center on the motherboard

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:51 am

if your primary concern is photoshop and lightroom, have you considered a mac?

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:01 pm

fliptw wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:51 am if your primary concern is photoshop and lightroom, have you considered a mac?

Yes, but ...
... in spite of my iPhone and iPad I'm not sure if I'd like to go full Mac-iverse. Everything else I have is Windows and, as for learning new tricks, I'm a pretty old dog.
Windows still gets me where I need to go, in spite of itself.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Jun 22, 2023 12:11 pm

Krom wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:59 pm IGigabyte motherboards have an ongoing critical security issue involving a UEFI setting that downloads and installs drivers and gigabyte apps on a windows install automatically, disabling it is all that is necessary to mitigate it. The setting is called "APP Center Download & Install", disable this in BIOS before installing your OS and it will be fine, beta BIOS updates have corrected the flaw (however it should remain disabled as one would never want said software anyway because like all motherboard vendor software it is complete garbage).

Hey Krom,
Is this App Center the Gigabyte 'backdoor' that's running around the tech press lately?

Well I thought I almost had a shopping list ready to go and then I poked around a bit more and heard about QVL's for the memory to go on the motherboard.
And man, what a rabbit hole this has sent me down.

Trying to compare the memory options that show up in pcpartspicker with the "tools" that show tested memory from different vendors is, frankly a pain. I uess I can just look at the mobo manufaturer's crazy long list of options and just pick one of those and then take the search for that item off of pcpartpicker. Are there any other recommendations on best ways to do this?
Also looking to maybe switch to an MSI board instead of the Gigabyte. Am I overthinking this?

I had planned to get 64GB of memory as 4x16GB to fill up all four slots, but there seem to be many more options in 2X32 configs. Should the 2 stick option be preferred? Again, am I overthinking this?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu Jun 22, 2023 3:12 pm

Yeah, that app center is probably it.

The thing about memory and motherboards with 4 memory slots that they don't tell you is that populating all 4 slots pretty much universally requires running it significantly slower than the memory would otherwise be rated for. The memory controller has to work much harder to drive 4 sticks than it does to drive 2 even if they add up to the same capacity. (And that is all before we start talking about single rank or dual rank.) It is no coincidence that the boards that always hit the fastest and most reliable memory overclocks are always the smaller microATX or similar boards that only have 2 DIMM slots.

So the TLDR is 2x32 is superior to 4x16.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Jun 22, 2023 5:00 pm

Thanks man. I had no idea.

Eff it then. I’ll just stick with the Gigabyte mobo and find a 2x32 that matches with it and turn off the app center

Time to get this done.

EDIT : I think I may back the CPU down to an i7-13700K instead of the i9-13900K.

EDIT : OK, looks like i'll go with the i7-13700k and pair it with Corsair CMK64GX5M2B5600C40 (2x32GB). Now just have to come to a conclusion on the motherboard decision.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Tue Jun 27, 2023 9:04 pm

... and, ay, caramba!

Choosing a graphics card, I had settled initially on this card: Gigabyte EAGLE OC GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB. Then ...
I also took a look at this one : Zotac Twin Edge OC GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8 GB Video Card

The Gigabyte Eagle OC GeForce RTX 3060Ti is $365 and has three fans and a 1665 MHz core clock
The Zotac is $520 has 2 fans and a 1410 MHz core clock
But then there's another Gigabyte Eagle OC that's $475 and has two fans and a 1410 MHz core clock

So ... is one of these a slam dunk better than the others? Are three fans better than two for the graphics card? I'm thinking mostly of low noise performance here, as I've been spoiled for the longest time with my very quite Win7 machine that just uses onboard graphics; but it's time to move on. RGB is of little concern as I won't use much of it, if any.

Is it just me or does Gigabyte use the same p/n for both of these cards? edit - um no, one is GV-N306TXEAGLE OC-8GD (3 fans) and the other is GV-N306TEAGLE OC-8GD (2 fans). My eyes is tired.

EDIT - 8July; taking the plunge. All parts ordered except for the OS and the video card - still thinking ...

Also, any suggestions on speakers? I've got a wired setup now with my truly ancient Altec-Lansing speakers w/subwoofer trio that came with my even more ancient Gateway computer (way, WAY back ...)
So time for an upgrade. Wired is fine; I'm an old dog.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:51 pm

I went with the Gigabyte graphics card.
Waiting for the spinning drives to show up.
God, I hope it posts.

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:30 pm

Good luck with your system build. I got a gigabyte graphics card too.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:03 am

Neo wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 2:30 pm Good luck with your system build. I got a gigabyte graphics card too.

Thanks. I hope so.

A little annoying that the 4000D case front panel header plugs don't have a simple plus and minus stamped on the leads (edit: except for the power one). Have an arrow that apparently indicates the + lead, but wtf.
And also, why are there 2 different power led connection points on the Z790 AORUS Elite AX.; it's well shown in the manual, but is there a difference if you use the two pin pair on the top left of the front panel header or just use two of the three pins (one + and two -) on the bottom right of the front panel header or is that 3 pin position for something else?

Also, my eyes are definitely not what they used to be; reading the text on the motherboard is a chore.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Fri Jul 21, 2023 9:02 pm

Great Jumpin' Jehosephat!

It posted on the initial power up!

On to system checks ...

Hey Krom -

It does not appear to be called "App Center" in my BIOS screen. Where I see the App Center item on several other videos, mine is just called Gigabyte Utilities Downloader.
I suppose that is the item I need to disable then, correct?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:36 am

Always nice when it POSTs on the first attempt (though POSTing when XMP is not enabled yet almost doesn't count).

I wouldn't put it past them to have renamed it after the exploit in order to avoid people looking it up on the internet, but that name is actually more descriptive and helpful for explaining what it does. Disable it anyway!

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:26 am

Krom wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:36 am Always nice when it POSTs on the first attempt (though POSTing when XMP is not enabled yet almost doesn't count).

I wouldn't put it past them to have renamed it after the exploit in order to avoid people looking it up on the internet, but that name is actually more descriptive and helpful for explaining what it does. Disable it anyway!

Yeah I disabled it.

Yes I need to enable XMP ... I suppose. Do I need to do this if I don't plan on overclocking?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 10:43 am

XMP is usually a safe goal to aim for to get the most out of a CPU/memory combo. It can produce a pretty significant performance uplift in some cases, just need to watch out for the BIOS doing stupid stuff mostly around voltages. Lots of them like to boost the voltage to the memory controller/system agent parts of the CPU to beyond reasonable numbers just because it makes XMP easier to do. Those voltages can be raised safely if a little more is needed, but I've seen a BIOS that took one that ran at .95v and boosted it to 1.3v when just 1.0v was sufficient to get it stable.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:47 pm

Gah! I think I'll hold off on XMP for the time being and see how things go.

I had eschewed rgb in this build because I didn't want anything too garish. However, now that it's up and running the large dark black box looks a little forlorn. Methinks it might be nice to have at least one strip of rgb light on the inside of the case, probably along the vertical length of the cable passthrough on the Corsair case. Any suggestions on what brands to look at? I'm thinking just a solid strip rather than a series of dots if that's possible. Probably just leave it one color or maybe alternate among 2-3 color values at most. Should I get Gigabyte's RGB Fusion to run it (seems that want me to download some kind of "Control Center" to get it) or are there some generic third party options?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 5:37 am

https://openrgb.org/

Do not install motherboard vendor software, its all awful and usually has security holes big enough to fit the whole planet through.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 9:39 am

yeah, I was looking at the open rgb too. This is gonna take a little figuring ...
As long as I can control the intensity of the led strip illumination, which it looks like openrgb does, then it might work as I'm planning it

edit - XMP enabled. didn't realize this would not only allow voltage tweaking (which I probably won't do) but is also how the manufacturer's design profile for the advertised ram speeds gets implemented.
So far, so good

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:07 am

So, as I understand it, all I need to get to add 1-2 led light strips is to get the openrgb software and then find the 1-2 short light strips that will plug into the 5V addressable led strip headers on the motherboard.

Is that correct?

Finding the correct piece of led strip kit seems to be the rate determining step. There are apparently about 527 quintillion sources trying to sell rgb strips.

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Thu Jul 27, 2023 3:03 pm

I like how the Gigabyte cards have a metal cover over the back of the PCB. I did something stupid when upgrading my computer. The CPU power cable wasn't plugged in and I tried to get it to POST. Good thing nowadays nothing happens when one does that. lol :/

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:28 am

So I get one of the newer Raptor Lake cpus for the latest build and Intel promptly (LOL!) rolls out a notice that that some Windows Updates are causing BSODs due to their (Intel's) crappy microcode.
Yeah,my CPUID is among the affected. I'm pausing Windows Updates for a week to see what happens. So far no issues.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:30 pm

Just ran into an apparent snag of some sort. Finally getting into the weeds to bulk transfer my files and folder structure to the new machine.
However, it seems that under Device Manager Other devices I have a bunch of PCI devices and and SM Bus Controller with bad drivers that need updating.

Win 11, latest version. Several forums sites I've read just say go to the mobo manufacturer's site to get the latest PCI drivers, but it is not at all clear from Gigabyte's web site what precisely it is I need to download and install.
So can anyone tell me what the magic code is to get drivers for my Z790 AORUS Elite AX rev 1.1 mobo? Or any help to interpret the groovy jargon at Gigabyte's site?

Do I need to do something in the BIOS? Or through the BIOS? EDIT - oh? So this is where one can use Gigabyte App Center to get current drivers. Except, per Krom's advice, I disabled it in BIOS.
So how can I get around using App Center to get the board drivers?

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:15 am

You're looking for the chipset drivers, you can get the latest ones directly from Intel.

Options include using their automatic utility: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... etect.html

Or the inf utility: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... ility.html (might not support Z790... try the automated utility first)

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 7:38 am

Yeah thanks. I had seen these pages which I was searching around but the descriptions are not written for simpletons such as myself, so I held off using them.

OK, so I ran the DSA and got the Intel ARC Controller

Then I went ahead and ran the INF Utility and rebooted. This seems to have resolved most of my PCI Other Device issues in Device Manager. However,I still have a couple of "Unknown device" entries under Other devices.
How do I determine what an "unknown device" is so I can try to find a driver for it? Manufacturer?

edit - I see at another forum site that someone resolved a similar issue but getting and installing the Intel IO Serial Driver for their board.
It would be really lovely if it was much easier and more direct to find these drivers. One might think this would be a priority for device and board manufacturers.

In Device Manager if I look at properties for the "Unknown device" is has a value of "ACPI\INTC1085\2&DABA3FF&0".

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:11 am

yeah, guess so

I went here -
https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard ... er-chipset

and ran the driver install for the Intel Serial IO driver and HID event Filter. That cleared both of the unknown checkmarks in Device Manager.

Still feel like I'm fumbling around in the dark with clown gloves on trying to do brain surgery. Sheesh.

edit - when I restarted the system I had a boot failure but I selected the "Load optimized defaults abd reboot" option and the system came back fine. I think. No issues show up in Device Manager.

Neo · Post by **Neo** » Mon Nov 27, 2023 10:44 pm

Why did you waste money on an extreme edition processor? :/

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:25 pm

That's how I roll ...

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:26 pm

yeah, the boot failure thing ....

it's still happens, whenever I reboot the system. doesn't appear to be a major problem since I can just have it "Load optimized defaults and reboot" and it seems to reboot just fine.
But it's annoying.
Is there a systematic way to go about diagnosing what is the problem so I can fix it? Please keep in mind that I am a computer dumdum and don't have a great knowledge of what's involved in rooting around in the BIOS and messing with XMP and memory timings. Grateful for any suggestions.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:55 pm

Check for updated BIOS, make sure your RAM is getting the correct voltage/frequency/timings. There are also a couple CPU voltages for like system agent and the memory controller (I think they may show up as VCCSA and VCCIO IIRC) on Intel CPUs that can sometimes improve POST reliability with a 0.05v increase or so but don't go over like 1.25v unless you really know what you are doing.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Wed Feb 07, 2024 5:54 pm

I did a search on "vccsa gigabyte z790 aorus elite ax" and the first item is a reddit where people are complaining about this board running DDR5 (Corsair?) and XMP. I think this started when I turned on XMP so maybe I'll turn that off and see what happens. Next timeI get into the BIOS I'll make a note of the the voltages and timings. Maybe one can work. Maybe none can work.

This all seems very ... cryptic.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:03 pm

"Load optimized defaults" pretty much universally kicks you back down to JEDEC memory timings/voltage/etc, which in some cases can be a pretty significant slowdown from XMP. However, as you have DDR5-6200, you might be pushing a bit harder than the CPU or some other component can handle. So one way of getting it more reliable and more stable is to toggle XMP on to pull all the timings/voltages, and then manually set only the frequency down to 6000 and see if that helps.

I haven't checked with Intel chips, but the sweet spot for AMD is DDR5-6000/CL30, with little to no benefit or even in some cases penalties for going faster. But in either case, backing off to 6000 will not make the slightest difference in performance but could easily shore up your stability. Or alternatively, backing off to CL34 instead, relaxing either the frequency or the CL is a very reliable way of shoring up memory stability.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:32 pm

ftr, the memory kit I ended up with wasn't the DDR5-6200 initially spec'd, but a 2x32GB DDR5-5600 CL-40 kit

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:22 pm

curiously, I just had to do a restart due to Windows Update. When I had the usual boot failure I went into the BIOS menu and saw that XMP was turned off! I turned it back on (XMP1) and restarted and voila - no boot failure.

So I had to turn XMP on, not off, to clear the issue. Go figure.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Sat Apr 13, 2024 8:27 am

yeah, so it turns out the issue isn't ACTUALLY cleared. Even with XMP on I am still getting the same boot failure when rebooting. And "load optimized defaults" gets the system back up and running fine.
Annoying. But since i'm not rebooting that often,I'll try to live with it.
Lightroom and Photoshop run great on the new system.

Nosferatu · Post by **Nosferatu** » Sun Apr 14, 2024 9:05 am

FWIW, from what I have been told, XMP memory issues tend to be resolved from BIOS upgrades. I know its a PITA waiting on one.

I am pretty sure you already did this. I might have missed it in this thread. Your gigabyte mobo has a relatively recent BIOS "F11d" from their web page.

If you already tried that, ignore me.