I had a dream…

[Will Robinson]

That someone did the math and said ‘ hey! We could spend billions and kill millions and be ready to repeat the cycle in a decade or two….you know….like we have been.
Or we could spend billions and not kill millions and not have to repeat it!!

So instead of palestinians trying to launch underwater drones with explosives on them from the beach in Gaza…they could launch a cruise ship from their new floating harbor and fishing boats and jet ski rentals and water taxis and…and…

It seems that Gaza is getting demo’ed so why not build it back with the next cycles budgeted billions for death as something that doesn’t cause death annd make it something that doesn’t invite outsiders to meddle with it.
Install a UN type commission to protect the Palestinians from any outside influence other than anonymous donations of cash and materials. Hamas? Go piss up a rope….Iran, U.S.A., Russia, Quater, etc etc piss off
After a couple of generations of free elected self representation they are in a much better place, millions of dead people didn’t die, hundreds of billions of dollars are saved.

Propose a sign up sheet to support the plan and see who is bold enough to say ‘ no, I want the perpetual death sentence so I can profit from it’
Then bomb them instead.

[Tunnelcat]

Sounds like a hell of a better plan than what's been going on over and over since WWII. Since Israel did the demo, they could help rebuild people's homes and businesses as a sign of goodwill, and perhaps make long term friends with these neighbors. But, someone needs to put their foot down and tell Israel to stop building Jewish settlements in the West Bank and displacing people from their homes or tensions will stay nasty.

[Will Robinson]

Sounds like a hell of a better plan than what's been going on over and over since WWII. Since Israel did the demo, they could help rebuild people's homes and businesses as a sign of goodwill, and perhaps make long term friends with these neighbors. But, someone needs to put their foot down and tell Israel to stop building Jewish settlements in the West Bank and displacing people from their homes or tensions will stay nasty.

There has never been a better time to get people to try a different approach than the next year or so because Gaza is done if the ceasefire idiocy doesn’t win out although I’m not hopeful in that.As the rooting out of Hamas progresses it’s going to be extremely horrific. The battle over the narrative started the day the attack happened and the videos showing what war looks like haven’t even begun.

But just imagine if a movement to take in the refugees and start planning the rebuilding was put underway right now. It could happen.
I’d love to see Gaza get the kind of priority we give ourselves. To see a real peace plan taking root.

[Spidey]

You had a pipe dream.

[Vander]

I can't help but notice that Israel is not mentioned in your dream.

[woodchip]

I can't help but notice that Israel is not mentioned in your dream.

Yeah, The Jews were given nothing but desert and swamp land and built a prosperous nation. Too bad the Palestinians are jealous and want to take what the Jews have. Always the pessimist eh Vander.

[vision]

I can't help but notice that Israel is not mentioned in your dream.

Or agency for Palestinians, you know, with the "UN type commission" installed by... who exactly?

[Neo]

Gotta have some kind of weapons now that man knows about weapons.

[Will Robinson]

I can't help but notice that Israel is not mentioned in your dream.

Sorry my haste is the only reason. They need to step up , take in anyone they displace who would choose it, and pay, and piss off all simultaneously. They would have some input on the make up of the commission but no authority once it was formed and empowered. As would Fatah party although in theory they could be the new government if the concept of promoting non-radical interpretation of Islam doesn't make them break apart and start killing each other....which is fine with me if they keep inside the West Bank

[Will Robinson]

I can't help but notice that Israel is not mentioned in your dream.

Or agency for Palestinians, you know, with the "UN type commission" installed by... who exactly?

The whole point is about agency *and* the opportunity. think fast track funding of a 'Marshall plan' autonomy and prosperity being the end result of the plan. You didn't really think I could detail the whole deliver peace to the Middle East, I know Im clever sometimes but I type with two thumbs and two fingers so I offer a premise instead of a how to handbook on the impossible. (This literally was a fragmented dream last night)

The last time required the death of hitler and Nazis so it's going to be messy creating a third party that can make them all Palestinians again (yes Jews and christians and someones god knows who else were all Palestinians at one time). stacking generations of breeding hatred to empower religious nutbags leaves a deeper stain you know. The commission will be tough but it's better than perpetual murder or fading away in glowing ash.

[vision]

The commission will be tough but it's better than perpetual murder or fading away in glowing ash.

What you propose is something that is somewhat along the lines of what I thought would be the best solution, which unfortunately would be a tremendous ask of Israel. Basically, Israel is guilty of being the worst neighbor possible. Rather than subjecting people to misery they should be lifted up. This means things like reparations and changing Israeli law to not only give Palestinians equal rights, but codify diversity laws to help reverse the cultural damage done over decades. Israel would likely have to give up land and part of Jerusalem, and if not, they would have to make life so good for Palestinians that they stop caring about the land. If you make Palestinians fat and lazy then they won't have much fight left in them, just like the Jan 6 morons that stormed the capitol (which could have been a lot worse if it wasn't a bunch of out of shape retirees with vague ideas about "liberty"). Israel has all the power to change the situation, alone even, but they don't want to and no amount of International support or pressure will change that.

[Tunnelcat]

There has never been a better time to get people to try a different approach than the next year or so because Gaza is done if the ceasefire idiocy doesn’t win out although I’m not hopeful in that.As the rooting out of Hamas progresses it’s going to be extremely horrific. The battle over the narrative started the day the attack happened and the videos showing what war looks like haven’t even begun.

But just imagine if a movement to take in the refugees and start planning the rebuilding was put underway right now. It could happen.
I’d love to see Gaza get the kind of priority we give ourselves. To see a real peace plan taking root.

Unfortunately, it will never happen. There's too much animosity and regional hate. The better solutions are always harder and less appealing it seems. Killing and war tend to be easier reactionary "solutions". Some of the responses here and from what I've heard from a couple of my conservative friends (yes, I have several), THEY sincerely feel that the Jews paid for their new nation with the blood and genocide they suffered during WWII. They believe Israel has the right to be a country and as such, the right to self protection and to remove any threat from it's land by any means possible. Never mind they will be complicit in a genocide.

[Tunnelcat]

That's not my position and I don't agree with it. I'm telling you that this is what I'm hearing from mostly right wing people, being used to justify their support for Israel's current military actions. Woodchip's posts also clearly indicate that's the conservative mindset right now. Why they support Israel, but not Ukraine, also shows the inconsistencies in their political stances. Are they for war in one case but not the other? That's not the Republican Party of old. They're now a bunch of unprincipled idiots.

[woodchip]

There has never been a better time to get people to try a different approach than the next year or so because Gaza is done if the ceasefire idiocy doesn’t win out although I’m not hopeful in that.As the rooting out of Hamas progresses it’s going to be extremely horrific. The battle over the narrative started the day the attack happened and the videos showing what war looks like haven’t even begun.

But just imagine if a movement to take in the refugees and start planning the rebuilding was put underway right now. It could happen.
I’d love to see Gaza get the kind of priority we give ourselves. To see a real peace plan taking root.

Unfortunately, it will never happen. There's too much animosity and regional hate. The better solutions are always harder and less appealing it seems. Killing and war tend to be easier reactionary "solutions". Some of the responses here and from what I've heard from a couple of my conservative friends (yes, I have several), THEY sincerely feel that the Jews paid for their new nation with the blood and genocide they suffered during WWII. They believe Israel has the right to be a country and as such, the right to self protection and to remove any threat from it's land by any means possible. Never mind they will be complicit in a genocide.

So because they suffered, that gives them the right to make others suffer. That just leads to an unending cycle of suffering. If Israel launches a genocide against the Palestinians, and sometime after that the Palestinians gain more power and influence and start using it to bully another group of people, will they say they're justified too because they suffered under Israel? It would never end.

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

[Darth Wang]

There has never been a better time to get people to try a different approach than the next year or so because Gaza is done if the ceasefire idiocy doesn’t win out although I’m not hopeful in that.As the rooting out of Hamas progresses it’s going to be extremely horrific. The battle over the narrative started the day the attack happened and the videos showing what war looks like haven’t even begun.

But just imagine if a movement to take in the refugees and start planning the rebuilding was put underway right now. It could happen.
I’d love to see Gaza get the kind of priority we give ourselves. To see a real peace plan taking root.

Unfortunately, it will never happen. There's too much animosity and regional hate. The better solutions are always harder and less appealing it seems. Killing and war tend to be easier reactionary "solutions". Some of the responses here and from what I've heard from a couple of my conservative friends (yes, I have several), THEY sincerely feel that the Jews paid for their new nation with the blood and genocide they suffered during WWII. They believe Israel has the right to be a country and as such, the right to self protection and to remove any threat from it's land by any means possible. Never mind they will be complicit in a genocide.

So because they suffered, that gives them the right to make others suffer. That just leads to an unending cycle of suffering. If Israel launches a genocide against the Palestinians, and sometime after that the Palestinians gain more power and influence and start using it to bully another group of people, will they say they're justified too because they suffered under Israel? It would never end.

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

We didn't try to commit genocide in response to either of those incidents. Although in the latter case, we attacked a country that was mostly uninvolved, started a war that lasted over a decade, got hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed, and created a power vacuum that eventually led to the rise of ISIS and even more wars and atrocities. So that kind of proves my point.

[Top Gun]

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

Ah yes, the US military's post-9/11 adventures, when we *checks notes* got mired in a country for two decades yet accomplished essentially nothing after the first few months, unless you count getting tens of thousands of civilians killed and winding up with the Taliban inevitably back in power. Or how about that other adventure, when we *checks notes again* illegally invaded a country over false pretenses, got mired in it for over a decade, got over a hundred thousand civilians killed, and directly caused the rise of an incredibly dangerous terrorist group. Truly those were our nation's finest hours. U-S-A! U-S-A!

[Will Robinson]

The commission will be tough but it's better than perpetual murder or fading away in glowing ash.

What you propose is something that is somewhat along the lines of what I thought would be the best solution, which unfortunately would be a tremendous ask of Israel. Basically, Israel is guilty of being the worst neighbor possible. Rather than subjecting people to misery they should be lifted up. This means things like reparations and changing Israeli law to not only give Palestinians equal rights, but codify diversity laws to help reverse the cultural damage done over decades. Israel would likely have to give up land and part of Jerusalem, and if not, they would have to make life so good for Palestinians that they stop caring about the land. If you make Palestinians fat and lazy then they won't have much fight left in them, just like the Jan 6 morons that stormed the capitol (which could have been a lot worse if it wasn't a bunch of out of shape retirees with vague ideas about "liberty"). Israel has all the power to change the situation, alone even, but they don't want to and no amount of International support or pressure will change that.

Yea it's definitely a lot to ask but there are a lot of Israeli jews who have been willing to give back territory and try lots of things to find a real solution. At least there were before this latest attack. There are lots of logical reasons to do it that would benefit all concerned. But people have a way of not really seeking to serve their own best interest if it starts with them giving something first.

[woodchip]

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

Ah yes, the US military's post-9/11 adventures, when we *checks notes* got mired in a country for two decades yet accomplished essentially nothing after the first few months, unless you count getting tens of thousands of civilians killed and winding up with the Taliban inevitably back in power. Or how about that other adventure, when we *checks notes again* illegally invaded a country over false pretenses, got mired in it for over a decade, got over a hundred thousand civilians killed, and directly caused the rise of an incredibly dangerous terrorist group. Truly those were our nation's finest hours. U-S-A! U-S-A!

Hmm, checks note, yes it was Biden who put the Taliban back in power and gave them 9 billion in military equipment. And checks notes again, The wars lasted decades because Republican and Democratic administrations tried to treat them politically to appease people like you who never served and would be waving the invaders flag when they stepped on our shore in greeting.

[Darth Wang]

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

Ah yes, the US military's post-9/11 adventures, when we *checks notes* got mired in a country for two decades yet accomplished essentially nothing after the first few months, unless you count getting tens of thousands of civilians killed and winding up with the Taliban inevitably back in power. Or how about that other adventure, when we *checks notes again* illegally invaded a country over false pretenses, got mired in it for over a decade, got over a hundred thousand civilians killed, and directly caused the rise of an incredibly dangerous terrorist group. Truly those were our nation's finest hours. U-S-A! U-S-A!

Hmm, checks note, yes it was Biden who put the Taliban back in power and gave them 9 billion in military equipment. And checks notes again, The wars lasted decades because Republican and Democratic administrations tried to treat them politically to appease people like you who never served and would be waving the invaders flag when they stepped on our shore in greeting.

They should have just carpet nuked the entire Middle East, that would solve everything, right?

[Top Gun]

Hmm, checks note, yes it was Biden who put the Taliban back in power and gave them 9 billion in military equipment. And checks notes again, The wars lasted decades because Republican and Democratic administrations tried to treat them politically to appease people like you who never served and would be waving the invaders flag when they stepped on our shore in greeting.

If the sun failed to rise for some reason tomorrow, your pathetic ass would pin that on Biden too. The final result in Afghanistan was inevitable for the past decade and was merely prolonged for no good reason. Those wars lasted decades because multiple administrations insisted on compounding the horrific mistakes of getting involved there in the first place and didn't get out while the getting was good.

And please, spare me your dick-waving. You may have a hardon for getting thousands of American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed, but those of us who aren't complete pieces of ★■◆● do not. I think it's a fantastic thing that so many young people are completely disinterested in joining the military, because it means they're smart enough to realize that they want no part of getting sent halfway around the world to mindlessly follow insane orders. Unlike you, who would probably be fine with mowing down an entire unarmed village if your superiors told you to.

[Tunnelcat]

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

Ah yes, the US military's post-9/11 adventures, when we *checks notes* got mired in a country for two decades yet accomplished essentially nothing after the first few months, unless you count getting tens of thousands of civilians killed and winding up with the Taliban inevitably back in power. Or how about that other adventure, when we *checks notes again* illegally invaded a country over false pretenses, got mired in it for over a decade, got over a hundred thousand civilians killed, and directly caused the rise of an incredibly dangerous terrorist group. Truly those were our nation's finest hours. U-S-A! U-S-A!

Hmm, checks note, yes it was Biden who put the Taliban back in power and gave them 9 billion in military equipment. And checks notes again, The wars lasted decades because Republican and Democratic administrations tried to treat them politically to appease people like you who never served and would be waving the invaders flag when they stepped on our shore in greeting.

Keep sitting in that claustrophobic insipid hate bubble of yours and believing that your guy was/is the best damn leader since George Washington and apple pie.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/09/trump ... dvice-too/

[woodchip]

And you would of preferred after Pearl Harbor we would of just waved our hankies and tried to coexist? Or when 9/11 happened we would of said it was our fault. How bleeding liberal.

Ah yes, the US military's post-9/11 adventures, when we *checks notes* got mired in a country for two decades yet accomplished essentially nothing after the first few months, unless you count getting tens of thousands of civilians killed and winding up with the Taliban inevitably back in power. Or how about that other adventure, when we *checks notes again* illegally invaded a country over false pretenses, got mired in it for over a decade, got over a hundred thousand civilians killed, and directly caused the rise of an incredibly dangerous terrorist group. Truly those were our nation's finest hours. U-S-A! U-S-A!

Hmm, checks note, yes it was Biden who put the Taliban back in power and gave them 9 billion in military equipment. And checks notes again, The wars lasted decades because Republican and Democratic administrations tried to treat them politically to appease people like you who never served and would be waving the invaders flag when they stepped on our shore in greeting.

They should have just carpet nuked the entire Middle East, that would solve everything, right?

Wrong, a phased withdrawal would of worked and a small force like we left in S.Korea and Germany would of been better.

[Tunnelcat]

I see South Korea has worked out just great. All we have left over from that conflict is a very hot border and an aggressor nation with a demented leader running things north of that border that's now a nuclear power and wants to nuke us. And if you think that the U.S. leaving a small occupying force in a country rife with warlords and Islamic religious fanatics who absolutely hate our guts would be a long term solution, you're smoking something so strong that's giving you delusions of grandeur.

[woodchip]

I see South Korea has worked out just great. All we have left over from that conflict is a very hot border and an aggressor nation with a demented leader running things north of that border that's now a nuclear power and wants to nuke us. And if you think that the U.S. leaving a small occupying force in a country rife with warlords and Islamic religious fanatics who absolutely hate our guts would be a long term solution, you're smoking something so strong that's giving you delusions of grandeur.

So you're saying the way to go was Biden's hurried and rushed withdrawal giving the Taliban 9 billion in military equipment was the prudent way to do so, leaving behind 100's of Americans and friendly Afghans. Yeah, you'd make a great adviser to Biden.

[vision]

So you're saying the way to go was Biden's hurried and rushed withdrawal...

Educate yourself:
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timel ... ghanistan/

[Tunnelcat]

So you're saying the way to go was Biden's hurried and rushed withdrawal giving the Taliban 9 billion in military equipment was the prudent way to do so, leaving behind 100's of Americans and friendly Afghans. Yeah, you'd make a great adviser to Biden.

Most of the vehicles and weapons left over there and still functional were already in the hands of the Afghan Military and being used. Everything we abandoned on our own bases was removed, demilitarized or destroyed. What functioning equipment and weapons we left there was for the use by the Afghan Military, whom we spent billions training to defend their country, so that stuff was IN THEIR HANDS. You COULD fault our government for "assuming" that the Afghan military wouldn't cut and run like a bunch of chickens once we left, which is exactly what happened, but that's spilled milk. Some of those weapons are even making their way to Kashmir now too. We would've had to take away all those weapons and vehicles from that country's military in order to keep them out of the hands of the Taliban just to make you happy I guess. So the moral of the story is, if we go into some country for some insipid war, we'd better keep our weapons and hardware to ourselves and not dole it out in local soldier "training". Once we give that stuff to any country's military, we have no control or say about it's use.

This is kind of why we should stay the hell out of other conflicts that don't involve U.S. National Security directly. We should've seen how mired down the Russians got in that country and how they were trashed. We should've taken heed of the Russian's fiasco and stayed the hell out of that place, period.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/us-ta ... equipment/