DescentBB

I've heard a number of stories of the animal nature of Hamas terrorist's, But this takes the cake: Hamas killers had grabbed a kid and used him to tell Jews it was safe to come out as the terrorists had gone (if he didn't they said they would kill him). When they did. the cowards would shoot the Jews (I use coward as the Jews were unarmed). When they were done, Hamas took the kid back to Gaza and killed him anyway. Normally I might think this was a propaganda tale except it was Anderson Cooper telling another lib reporter, Mitch Albom, and he related it to another commentator.
Now if you can tell a story by a well known reporter that the Israeli's did something similar I'd be interested in hearing it. Not that the Jews bombed a school or hospital because Hamas was storing munitions there or Hamas screwed up and dropped a rocket on themselves bur a real atrocity of like kind.

Thousands of dead women and children don't count? Let me guess, they were all terrorists, right? Or declaring safe times and corridors for civilians to evacuate and then bombing them? I bet even if Israel dropped a nuke on Gaza (which someone in their government recently suggested as a possibility) you would still try to justify it.

I don't doubt that Hamas would do such a thing as described in your OP, because they are awful. But so is the Israeli government. Neither side has the moral high ground here.

woodchip wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:59 amNormally I might think this was a propaganda tale...

It is propaganda. CNN is basically state-sponsored media and will never deviate from the state's message, which is pro-Zionism.

Two short videos, shared by the terrorists themselves, quickly emerged showing groups of cheering Palestinian men, some armed, in the streets of Gaza crowding around half-naked and bloodied young Israeli women.

In one clip, a woman later identified as German-Israeli citizen Shani Louk, 22, can be seen barely clothed lying unconscious in an unnatural position on the flatbed of a pickup as men spit and abuse her body while screaming "Allahu Akhbar."

In another video, 19-year-old Israeli soldier Na’ama Levy is pulled from the back of a jeep by an armed gunman, her hands bound behind her back and thick blood stains between her legs, as Palestinian men jeer at her.

"This is not an isolated event in history where crimes against women can be ignored. What we’ve seen in Israel were rape and gender-based crimes under clear orders and under full control."

"It was rape unto death, rape as massacre, rape and crimes made to kill and torture women, using them and their bodies as an instrument to force exile of those communities in Israel. It was rape to be seen and heard by others, women’s and girls’ bodies used as spectacles of victory, trophies of war."
And you are more worried about the Palestinians

There are rapists and murderers in America too. Does that justify some other country indiscriminately bombing our cities?

You know who you sound a lot like right now? Osama Bin Laden.

https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/ ... c215995308

Following an established pattern, Bin Laden acknowledged his support for the hijackers and repeated his claim that strikes on American targets should be viewed by Muslims and Americans as a defensively motivated response to perceived American aggression in the Islamic world. Statements attributed to Bin Laden and Al Zawahiri since 2001 have promised further attacks and sought to justify Al Qaeda's targeting of American and British civilians by arguing that Western societies are morally corrupt, recent democratic reform and human rights initiatives are insincere or bankrupt, and American and British civilians should be held accountable for the policies of their democratically elected governments in the Middle East that Al Qaeda finds objectionable or unjust.

Anecdotes about Americans doing evil things, or arguments about Americans deserving death because of who they voted for are never going to convince me that 9/11 was justified. I think you would probably agree with me on that.

Israel has killed nearly 4 times as many Palestinians as the amount of Americans who died on 9/11, and that number is going up every day. But somehow that's different and they all deserve it, according to you.

Don't forget, nearly half of Gaza is children. Imagine if the World Trade center was full of only children when the attacks happened, and that's still not close to the number of kids Israel has killed.

Darth, Israel dcelared war on the enemy that murdered its citizens, Just like we killed more Japanese and Germans than killed our citizens. Sadly it is one of the side effects of war. While there are rapist's and murderers here, we have police and laws to deal with them. The only laws for Hamas are what the Jews military are meting out.

You're seriously claiming that there are no laws or law enforcement whatsoever in Gaza, and the only way to punish criminals there is for another country to bomb them, wantonly slaughtering random civilians?

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Israel is guilty of war crimes? That doesn't mean Palestine is innocent of them, it's not a binary.

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 10:46 pm You're seriously claiming that there are no laws or law enforcement whatsoever in Gaza, and the only way to punish criminals there is for another country to bomb them, wantonly slaughtering random civilians?

Why is it so hard for you to admit that Israel is guilty of war crimes? That doesn't mean Palestine is innocent of them, it's not a binary.

The laws in Gaza are dictated by and enforced by the war criminals Hamas. Hamas who is trying to kill all the Jews.
The laws in Israel include protection for all citizens and legal immigrants including Palestinians.
So in comparing the two there are major differences in the laws and the people who dictate them. And yes innocents get killed in war. But the way the two sides executes their war is also different. Hamas purposely targeted children, infants. Israel didn't seek out innocents for targets and has made efforts to minimize them.

The fact that Israel has killed more than Hamas doesn't mean anything. It doesn't even mean they will win if they don't reduce Hamas to a an extreme minimum and reshape the dynamic of who dictates the law in Gaza and enforces it.
And that only describes the Gaza component. You still have Irans other chess pieces to eliminate, more dangerous pieces...Hezbollah for example.

The world leaders created this problem when they created Israel. Then they stood by and let nature take its course. Now the world is getting what it wanted. Not what it talks about wanting but what they truly wanted. 'Let the troublesome people go elsewhere and be a problem for each .' That's was the rationale for it. Now one faction emerges as dominant. You can't complain it away.

Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:41 amIsrael didn't seek out innocents for targets and has made efforts to minimize them.

If that's the case, they certainly aren't very competent at it.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-in-gaza/

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:06 am

Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:41 amIsrael didn't seek out innocents for targets and has made efforts to minimize them.

If that's the case, they certainly aren't very competent at it.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-in-gaza/

Darth I read your link and nowhere is any mention of the war crimes committed by the Palestinians against the Israeli's. If war crimes were committed by either side I suggest you wait until a war crime tribunal is set up and see what shakes out.

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:06 am

Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:41 amIsrael didn't seek out innocents for targets and has made efforts to minimize them.

If that's the case, they certainly aren't very competent at it.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-in-gaza/

That depends entirely on what the "it" is in your article.
If the big powerful country that was just attacked by your 'Gaza leadership', Hamas...the same Hamas that stores ammunition and bombs in your local schools and hospitals... sends you notice that you better move out to the south before the bombs and artillary kill you then take some responsibility for your own fate.

I didn't see the schools and hospitals in Israel receiving any warning before the Hamas baby killers came to take heads.

woodchip wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:31 am

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 7:06 am

Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:41 amIsrael didn't seek out innocents for targets and has made efforts to minimize them.

If that's the case, they certainly aren't very competent at it.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-in-gaza/

Darth I read your link and nowhere is any mention of the war crimes committed by the Palestinians against the Israeli's. If war crimes were committed by either side I suggest you wait until a war crime tribunal is set up and see what shakes out.

Then apparently you didn't read very far.

From the sixth paragraph:

In Israel, more than 1,400 people, most of them civilians, have been killed and some 3,300 others were injured, according to the Israeli Ministry of Health after armed groups from the Gaza Strip launched an unprecedented attack against Israel on 7 October. They fired indiscriminate rockets and sent fighters into southern Israel who committed war crimes including deliberately killing civilians and hostage-taking. The Israeli military says that fighters also took more than 200 civilian hostages and military captives back to the Gaza Strip.

The point is that war crimes are documented on both sides.

And as for WR, the link documents many incidents where Israel gave no warning whatsoever, and there are also incidents where they said certain corridors would be safe and then bombed them anyway. Whether you want to attribute that to incompetence or malice is up to you.

I wonder if the attacks on the safe passage corridors was reported like the errant hamas rocket that landed by the hospital and hamas tried to blame the IDF. Like I said, wait until a war crimes tribunal sets up and starts their investigation. Remember, the first thing lost in war is the truth

So when Palestine commits war crimes, you instantly believe everything you hear about them and demand that Gaza be "wiped clean". But when Israel commits war crimes, suddenly you change your tune to 'We don't really know what's going on, there's lots of false information out there in wars like this, let's not make any judgements until it's all over'.

Do you see maybe a hint of hypocrisy there?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

If incidents like this weren't deliberate, then at the very least they show that Israel is doing an incredibly poor job of trying to minimize civilian casualties.

Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:41 am The laws in Israel include protection for all citizens and legal immigrants including Palestinians.

Ahahahaha--oh wait you're serious.

woodchip wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:31 am Darth I read your link and nowhere is any mention of the war crimes committed by the Palestinians against the Israeli's. If war crimes were committed by either side I suggest you wait until a war crime tribunal is set up and see what shakes out.

"I'm mad because this article about one thing and not another thing doesn't talk about the other thing."

Will Robinson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:56 pm That depends entirely on what the "it" is in your article.
If the big powerful country that was just attacked by your 'Gaza leadership', Hamas...the same Hamas that stores ammunition and bombs in your local schools and hospitals... sends you notice that you better move out to the south before the bombs and artillary kill you then take some responsibility for your own fate.

I didn't see the schools and hospitals in Israel receiving any warning before the Hamas baby killers came to take heads.

"War crimes are just fine so long as you warn some people before you do them."

Top Gun wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:11 pm "I'm mad because this article about one thing and not another thing doesn't talk about the other thing."

Except it actually does, he just missed it.

"War crimes are just fine so long as you warn some people before you do them."

And even if you don't, apparently it's not your fault as long as there's no official tribunal... but such a standard doesn't apply to the other side.

Some history for woodchip in case he forgets who were the original inhabitants of that land before the Jews moved in. They haven't been very good neighbors ever since either, outright taking land for themselves. If someone took my home and land and shoved me out saying go somewhere else, I'd be a little ticked off. Israeli citizens were and are the instruments that created the continual violence we still see today. If woody thinks wiping Gaza clean of Palestinians is a "solution", no it's not. All they've done is create even more people who hate them. Future terrorists in other words.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/ ... nian-lands

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 11:26 pm Except it actually does, he just missed it.

Heh, exactly. Not a shock that he didn't even read his own source properly.

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:28 pm Some history for woodchip in case he forgets who were the original inhabitants of that land before the Jews moved in. They haven't been very good neighbors ever since either, outright taking land for themselves. If someone took my home and land and shoved me out saying go somewhere else, I'd be a little ticked off. Israeli citizens were and are the instruments that created the continual violence we still see today. If woody thinks wiping Gaza clean of Palestinians is a "solution", no it's not. All they've done is create even more people who hate them. Future terrorists in other words.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/ ... nian-lands

I guess you missed my wikipedia link when Jordan took them in. Here's more:
" Most of its targets were Arab politicians, rivals, and activists they felt were soft on the Israeli issue, but Jews, as well as political representatives of Western nations were also targets, especially those involved in the peace process in the Middle East. Notably, ANO enacted a drastically violent policy towards its own members – executing some 600 members and their families in 1987"
Another Wiki link regarding Abu Nidal undoubtably as much adored as Biden and Obama. Keep telling me how we should feel sorry for the children as their parents keep supporting Hamas.

A lot of the media has placed the initial attack on Israel in as a side note...I can see how someone can miss it.

The great and trusted PBS News Hour does it every night.

Look at all the dead children...oh. by the way.....

Woodchip, I gotta ask. Are you a bot or a human being?

A political party won an election 16 years ago, therefore all the children deserve to die.

Seriously?

Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 9:10 pm Woodchip, I gotta ask. Are you a bot or a human being?

More human than you think you are.

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:51 pm A political party won an election 16 years ago, therefore all the children deserve to die.

Seriously?

Wow you really are a leftist.

"political party"

woodchip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:20 am

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:51 pm A political party won an election 16 years ago, therefore all the children deserve to die.

Seriously?

Wow you really are a leftist.

If being a "leftist" means not making excuses for butchering children and civilians, then every decent person is one.

Spidey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:12 am "political party"

They are. Or, at least, they were back in 2007, the last time they actually allowed an election, which is apparently justification for why the Palestinians should be genocided.

Don't get me wrong, Hamas sucks. They promised improvements to Palestine's way of life via social programs (which is why people voted for them... not because, as woodchip seems to think, they ran on a platform of 'we're evil, vote for us if you're evil too'). In real life, things aren't so cartoonishly simple. Groups like Hamas promise good things, which is how they get votes. Of course they then fail to deliver, and instead seize power and make everything worse.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario where George W. Bush (who you probably voted for, I'm guessing) declared martial law and refused to leave office, then turned the USA into a dictatorship and started a war with the EU. Then someone said that all American civilians and children deserved to die because they and their parents voted for him.

I voted for Bush once. JFTR

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:06 am

Spidey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:12 am "political party"

They are. Or, at least, they were back in 2007, the last time they actually allowed an election, which is apparently justification for why the Palestinians should be genocided.

Don't get me wrong, Hamas sucks. They promised improvements to Palestine's way of life via social programs (which is why people voted for them... not because, as woodchip seems to think, they ran on a platform of 'we're evil, vote for us if you're evil too'). In real life, things aren't so cartoonishly simple. Groups like Hamas promise good things, which is how they get votes. Of course they then fail to deliver, and instead seize power and make everything worse.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario where George W. Bush (who you probably voted for, I'm guessing) declared martial law and refused to leave office, then turned the USA into a dictatorship and started a war with the EU. Then someone said that all American civilians and children deserved to die because they and their parents voted for him.

You keeping mentioning genocide, I don't. Hypothetical? Imagine Biden is so inept that 2 wars break out...oh wait!

woodchip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:03 am

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:06 am

Spidey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:12 am "political party"

They are. Or, at least, they were back in 2007, the last time they actually allowed an election, which is apparently justification for why the Palestinians should be genocided.

Don't get me wrong, Hamas sucks. They promised improvements to Palestine's way of life via social programs (which is why people voted for them... not because, as woodchip seems to think, they ran on a platform of 'we're evil, vote for us if you're evil too'). In real life, things aren't so cartoonishly simple. Groups like Hamas promise good things, which is how they get votes. Of course they then fail to deliver, and instead seize power and make everything worse.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario where George W. Bush (who you probably voted for, I'm guessing) declared martial law and refused to leave office, then turned the USA into a dictatorship and started a war with the EU. Then someone said that all American civilians and children deserved to die because they and their parents voted for him.

You keeping mentioning genocide, I don't. Hypothetical? Imagine Biden is so inept that 2 wars break out...oh wait!

You're the one who said that Israel should wipe Gaza clean. How else is that supposed to be interpreted?

And yes, it was Biden with his sinister mind control powers who caused Putin to invade Ukraine, and Hamas to attack Israel.

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:08 am

woodchip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:03 am

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:06 am

Spidey wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 8:12 am "political party"

They are. Or, at least, they were back in 2007, the last time they actually allowed an election, which is apparently justification for why the Palestinians should be genocided.

Don't get me wrong, Hamas sucks. They promised improvements to Palestine's way of life via social programs (which is why people voted for them... not because, as woodchip seems to think, they ran on a platform of 'we're evil, vote for us if you're evil too'). In real life, things aren't so cartoonishly simple. Groups like Hamas promise good things, which is how they get votes. Of course they then fail to deliver, and instead seize power and make everything worse.

Imagine a hypothetical scenario where George W. Bush (who you probably voted for, I'm guessing) declared martial law and refused to leave office, then turned the USA into a dictatorship and started a war with the EU. Then someone said that all American civilians and children deserved to die because they and their parents voted for him.

You keeping mentioning genocide, I don't. Hypothetical? Imagine Biden is so inept that 2 wars break out...oh wait!

You're the one who said that Israel should wipe Gaza clean. How else is that supposed to be interpreted?

And yes, it was Biden with his sinister mind control powers who caused Putin to invade Ukraine, and Hamas to attack Israel.

You'll have to point out where I said "wipe Gaza clean". Maybe I was posting about Hamas
As to Biden, You are really naive. Wars start when somebody thinks another country is too weak or won't do anything. Kinda like
Hitler's mindset in the late 30's. You'd be the Neville Chamberlain of your time .

And now we have a explosion at a bridge. Not saying it is this or that but other agencies closing other bridges and the FBI Terrorism Task force is also investigating. Of course we'll never hear the truth especially if it was a real terrorist attack and the perps came across our porous southern border.

No terrorism indicated so far, so don't jump to conclusions. The only people dead are the 2 occupants. If it was terrorism, they weren't very good at making a large bomb. All it threw was a lot of small shrapnel. And you would think is was some sort of nefarious terrorist attack Mr. Scared of his own shadow. And if it was, we will soon find out if it was domestic terrorists, or foreign, since they now claim they know the identities of the 2 occupants. I'm willing to bet domestic.

If you think you're a human, better start looking in the mirror at your twisted visage. Humanity is defined as: "The quality of being humane; benevolence", which you clearly lack. Anyone who thinks kids and babies should die for the sins of the adults, is a monster.

woodchip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:06 pm

You'll have to point out where I said "wipe Gaza clean". Maybe I was posting about Hamas[/quote]

That would be right here: viewtopic.php?p=397457#p397457 Where you also talk about a "proper cleansing" (of the ethnic variety, it's implied)

As to Biden, You are really naive. Wars start when somebody thinks another country is too weak or won't do anything. Kinda like
Hitler's mindset in the late 30's. You'd be the Neville Chamberlain of your time .

LMAO. You know Trump was planning to have the US leave NATO in his second term, if he got one, right? That would be exactly what Putin wanted. Not to mention the right-wing narrative on the Ukraine war is so self-contradictory.

'Putin attacked Ukraine because he knew Biden was too weak to do anything about it!', and simultaneously 'Biden is sending too much military aid to Ukraine, we shouldn't be wasting our money and equipment on this war, we shouldn't even be involved!'

Make up your minds...

Didn't you hear? Republicans now like Putin, since their God, His Excellency Trump, likes him for being a "strong leader" and they follow whatever Trump likes since most of them now don't have a mind of their own. Never mind that it was their previous God, Ronald Reagan, who called Russians the "Evil Empire". Talk about almost setting off WWIII with one comment.

Oh, and Trump likes China and NK now too. That "strong leader" bull★■◆● all over again. He must get a boner when thinking about these autocrats.

Trump wrote:"President Xi is like central casting, there is nobody in Hollywood who could play the role of President Xi -- the look, the strength, the voice."

"It's good to have a relationship with Putin, and Xi, and all these other people that have lots of nuclear weapons, and Kim Jong Un I have a good relationship with. He's a tough, smart guy."

woodchip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:17 pm And now we have a explosion at a bridge. Not saying it is this or that but other agencies closing other bridges and the FBI Terrorism Task force is also investigating. Of course we'll never hear the truth especially if it was a real terrorist attack and the perps came across our porous southern border.

A tragic accident. Probably a medical issue. An older local couple who owned a large Bentley somehow got going over a 100 mph, hit a curb, go airborne and crash, almost into the Customs booths and their car explodes into a million pieces of shrapnel because the gas tank was full and was ripped to shreds and goes "boom". There's nothing left big enough to identify except the engine block. You would think terrorism as your first thought.

Darth Wang wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:49 pm

woodchip wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 4:06 pm

You'll have to point out where I said "wipe Gaza clean". Maybe I was posting about Hamas

That would be right here: viewtopic.php?p=397457#p397457 Where you also talk about a "proper cleansing" (of the ethnic variety, it's implied)


[/quote]
"First I asked the question, "how did the Israeli's miss this and the US". Of course you missed that. Then you should read a history of Gaza:
https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip/Blockade
Woodchip quote

And then consider why Egypt and Jordan don't want the Palestinian's . After all the attacks by Hamas, can you blame the Israeli's for wanting to wipe the strip clean? And by not doing a proper cleansing, Netanyahu is certainly not enhancing his career. Posturing that you will do some cleansing and then don't , won't get you re-elected"

Perhaps "proper Cleansing" confused you with genocide as you wanted desperately to accuse me of something. Proper cleansing means ridding gaza of hamas and other terrorists. Learn to read and comprehend.

There's no way to do "proper cleansing" of Gaza. Sure, the Israelis can kill every Hamas fighter in the area, but that won't stop the creation of future terrorists from all the ticked off people in Gaza who's homes and belongings were destroyed by bombing who were then unceremoniously forced to walk south into Southern Gaza. I bet if you were in those same circumstances, you'd become a terrorist just to retaliate. It's human nature and so predictable.