DescentBB

Just dropped by to see how all the Descenters would take the news of Outrage being closed down. It's a sad story indeed :/

I never liked Descent myself to be honest, but I was a great fan of the Pyropimps show back in the day. Still listen to all the eps every now and then.

JZA

I guess outrage dying was a sad day for Descent fans. Volition dying would be a happy day for us.

If Volition died, then Paralax would be the only thing standing in the way of Descent 4. Oh, that and the $4.70 Interplay has left...

Nope, Outrage dying didn't have a huge impact on the community - except that it "freed up" Kevin Bentley to work on the *cough* *cough* D3 1.5 patch - which is expected any time [sarcasm]real soon[/sarcasm].

Pxo is dead - and KQuery doesn't seem to list any servers for me. So I'm stuck with one opponent on my LAN...

The *NEW* D3 is out in two weeks, and my Half Life 2 voucher awaits usage.

Pretty much resigned to never have the rush that is Descent online again.

Mobi, use kali, what I use to find D3 games.

What does Volition have to do with Descent 4? They did have plans to develop it, yes, but were they in any way tied up with the legal rights?

As far as I recall, during the ODS Descent 4 project, it was Parallax that turned out to be the stumbling block.

Sirius wrote:As far as I recall, during the ODS Descent 4 project, it was Parallax that turned out to be the stumbling block.

correct.

[post "hello and welcome to last week" picture here]

Yes, Parallax was indeed the legal block to ODS' development of D4. The Descent 3 contract between Inteprlay and Parallax stipulated that Parallax reserved the right to create Descent 4. After Parallax split up into Outrage and Volition, they (Mike Kulas and Matt Toschlog) transferred rights for D3 over to Toschlog's Outrage, with the intent of giving Kulas's Volition the rights to D4 after D3's release. D3 missed its deadline and did not sell well, and there was a general falling-out between Interplay and Parallax/Outrage/Volition (as well as other companies, the most notable of which is BioWare). Volition was bought up by THQ and therefore Kulas/Toschlog's Parallax held the exclusive rights to Descent 4, which Toschlog's Outrage didn't want to take on just yet, given the commercial failure of Descent 3, not to mention it was a famous franchise title that could serve as a nice bargaining chip for Outrage/Parallax. About this time ODS started getting real serious about grabbing the legal rights to D4, but nobody at Parallax would speak to anyone at Interplay (or even me, Deathwinger, or Valin Halcyon) so the project died.

Mwahahaha.... Descent 4....

I don't visit the DBB often. In truth I go many months between visits but I did stop by today and this thread caught my eye. I thought I would make a few comments about it.

First of all, I worked at Outrage for 3 years, until they were closed by THQ. That happened (within a few weeks) a year ago from now. So, I lived through it not as a spectator but as someone whose life was forever changed.

Secondly, it was/is unlikely that Volition or Outrage would Develop D4 since both were acquired by THQ and Interplay owns the franchise. Outrage doesn't exist anymore anyway. Parallax is essentially Matt Toschlog now I believe but I am not aware of him doing anything game related at the moment. (I haven't spoken to him in a while though.)

Personally, I don't think Descent 4, no matter who made it, would sell (in the numbers needed to be profitable) today. The days of PC gamers purchasing a game en masse that requires an accessory (joystick) are more or less over. If Descent 4 is ever developed, it will very likely be less like D1/D2 than D3 was. I mean, people who are hoping for a D1/D2 reincarnate will probably be disappointed even if a new sequel ever sees the light of day. I'm not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but I just think people in this community are so die-hard and have a very precise vision of what they want, that nothing will make them happy.

Lastly, while I agree that Outrage closing down was sad, and while I do not have much love for THQ since they were the ones who did it, I do take a bit of exception to any comments that any game company closing would be a good thing. I lived through it and I am still being affected by it over a year later. It was the single worst thing that ever happened to me in my life. No, I haven't had the worst life, but it was still horrible for me. I had just purchased a brand new house not two months earlier and I am still making payments on this house at this time even though I have not lived in it for 75% of the time I have owned it. I also had to live apart from my wife of one year for several months while we made the transition to Texas and now we are living (still) in an apartment with no furniture until the house sells and we can buy a new one here. In short, it's been a huge pain in the ass I'd rather forget.

I know people don't really mean ill will (or I hope at least) towards the developers when they make comments like that, but if you could for a moment imagine that all you wanted to do in life was be a teacher, then suddenly your school has closed down and the only other schools where you can get a job are 1000 miles away from everything you know, then you know what I (and most of my friends at Outrage) went through.

-LordDeath

LordDeath, by my math you joined Outrage after D3's release?

Yep. Early 2000.

hey LD!

hope everything gets well soon!

<3

Well, as someone who does work for THQ, I also take offense at Mobi's calling for Volition's death. Volition continues to push the bounds of gaming, creating Red Faction (the PS2's premier FPS), Summoner (one of the first RPGs for the PS2), and now the upcoming Punisher.

I know you whine about those inferior console games, but have a little business sense. The console market is a $10 billion industry. PCs are just $1 billion of that. Contrary to popular belief, game developers don't exist to create a game twenty die-hard gamers will buy. Such a developer would go out of business real fast. Today, a good game will sell well over one million copies. Some more than five million. Do you see Descent getting that kind of mass penetration? I don't. Not then, not now.

LordDeath wrote:I'm not saying it wouldn't ever happen, but I just think people in this community are so die-hard and have a very precise vision of what they want, that nothing will make them happy.

I couldn't have said it better. You know these High Octane blokes who are claiming they are building a Descent clone? I wish the community would just shut up and let High Octane make a good game, their way. Frankly, I'm tired of the elite preaching, dictating, and demanding their precise, biased visions.

LordDeath wrote:I lived through it and I am still being affected by it over a year later.

I think you do have to live through the game development process to really understand the problems we have to face when we build games. You know them, I'm sure LordDeath. People who merely play them just don't understand. There isn't a magic bullet like UnrealEd or D3Edit to build levels. In fact, the whole concept of a "level designer" is a somewhat archaic term, since it is often distributed between art and design. And stability is often a blessing. It can cost a company tens of millions to create a video game that can compete in the modern marketplace. If that company plans to stay in business, they had better plan to recoup that development cost.

Great Post Kyo!

And welcome back for the hello DL! Best of luck to you.

You know these High Octane blokes who are claiming they are building a Descent clone? I wish the community would just shut up and let High Octane make a good game, their way. Frankly, I'm tired of the elite preaching, dictating, and demanding their precise, biased visions.

Concur.

I believe it's called building, and not solely innovating that makes great games...

It is true that you cannot alienate a fanbase and expect to sell a game.

all our "elitist preaching" is letting someone who doesn't care to listen, (be it market sales,etc) know what we have come to know and love. It's about a basic sense of gameplay and a compromise of beauty vs speed.

Just about any major successful company out there can make another FPS... but since D2, nobody has been able to do it with class. Outrage failed in trying to overimprove the graphics of an already good game. It just happened during a bad time when hardware was in its initial mainstream transistion, and in doing so became over demanding on current systems of the time.

get over yourselves... I'm sure a lot of us go through these similarities while building levels/mods for these games. the masses are intollerant of repetition there.

You know what? I like to fart when I'm poopin.

Yeh I really hope someones makes a Descent 5. I really love the Descent series so much that I could poop, and my pooping could probably make you guys poop too. I'd like it to be more like the "classic" Descents though. I dint really like the weapons in D3 as much as D2 wepins.

Lord D,

as much as the lack of D4 is a crying a$$ shame, it's nothing by comparison to what you endured. thanks for sharing your perspective with everyone here.

btw, where in Texas do you live?

sometimes we forget the humanity involved when we speak or think. We all want jobs and we all want D4 as well err oh well. without the lows it is hard to appreciate the highes.

In the Dallas area now working at Ensemble Studios. So, I'm in a better position now, but of course it has been difficult to enjoy but is getting better every month.

Gammaray wrote:Just about any major successful company out there can make another FPS... but since D2, nobody has been able to do it with class.

In your opinion. Lest we not forget that after Descent 2, there was Half-Life, Unreal Tournament, Battlefield 1942, Far Cry, and all relevant sequels therein. In your Descent-laden mind, you might think that Descent was the One True Game. But there are millions of customers who would think differently. Get over myself? First, understand the vast majority of the gaming world doesn't believe in Descent like you do. Then, we'll talk.

And Kyouryuu has layeth the smack down.

and Kyouryuu is speaking from game design experience. He is creating a game (a commercial one, where he actually gets paid for when its finished!) with a profit-making company and knows and understands the ins and outs of what goes into making a game that a mere game player who hasn't created a commercial game himself can never understand. So it'd be wise to listen to what he has to say, because its coming from someone who is on the inside and 'in-the-know' about game designing and the business.

and he completely ignored what I had to say...

I've done enough design/production work for the CS/HL/Q2 community to know that it's not easy... don't compare my experience being non-paid to his. some of us do this for fun, and it's just as hard no matter how you view it. (hell just look at the D3 community and its overly picky audience... it's no wonder I won't touch D3 levels with a 100 foot stick)

Kyo, go back and actually read my post... you'll see I wasn't bashing on anyone. I simply pointed out that things have become rather standard and expectations are high for the same old same old run of the mill FPS.

before you go asking me to prove anything, remember I am here to debate why a company failed, not brag about or advertise any works.

DarkFlameWolf wrote:understands the ins and outs of what goes into making a game that a mere game player who hasn't created a commercial game himself can never understand

so you yourself have already affirmed what I have said... companies alienate their fanbase by saying they know all, and we know jack. sorry, but if I don't like the way a game presents itself I don't bother even trying it. (demo or not)

Games are not designed by committees. Nor should they be. And demands by armchair game designers are usually very superficial, and more often than not said with much disdain towards whoever happens to be a representative of the company in question.

Gammaray wrote:all our "elitist preaching" is letting someone who doesn't care to listen, (be it market sales,etc) know what we have come to know and love. It's about a basic sense of gameplay and a compromise of beauty vs speed.

Well that's what it may sound like to you, and there are a few people who actually say things which are worth listening to, but can you really blame us when we roll our collective eyes when people from the community say things like "I won't play it if it doesn't have the fusion cannon"?

And yes, I'm also a professional game developer.

Gammaray wrote:Kyo, go back and actually read my post...

Fine. Let's pick it apart, so you know I'm paying attention.

Gammaray wrote:It is true that you cannot alienate a fanbase and expect to sell a game.

There are few game companies that set out on a mission to alienate a fanbase. At the time, sometimes said fanbase needs to understand that it's just a tiny pixel compared to a much larger image. Descent 3 didn't sell. You could blame it on lousy marketing. You could blame it on being a lousy game. Personally, I blame it on a game mechanic that is too foreign to everyone except that devoted fanbase. Space sim games have unfortunately succumbed to the same fate.

A devoted fanbase of 30 or so people does not make for a successful game. You could probably find 30 devout fans of any game. But that's not going to sell a million copies because the masses simply won't be interested in buying it. The primary objective of any company is to make a profit to finance future games. If that fundamental goal is not satisfied, they won't be in business for long.

My point? The Descent fanbase is so small that it probably wouldn't make or break a game to ignore its loudest members.

Gammaray wrote:I've done enough design/production work for the CS/HL/Q2 community to know that it's not easy... don't compare my experience being non-paid to his. some of us do this for fun, and it's just as hard no matter how you view it.

Actually, I find the professional side is quite different from the hobbyist side where I started. So much of designing a video game from scratch is unreliable. You work with unreliable tools. Your levels very frequently crash and you have to deduce why. So often, you feel you take one step forward only to take two steps back. D3Edit and UnrealEd are luxuries!

And there are deadlines and milestones and demands from overhead that simply have to be met. You think the Descent community is picky? Heh.

Also, your paycheck doesn't depend on making your mod appeal to a massive audience. Writing a mod allows you to specify a much narrower target audience. Making a level for a mod is even less challenging in this respect.

Kyouryuu wrote:

Gammaray wrote:Kyo, go back and actually read my post...

Fine. Let's pick it apart, so you know I'm paying attention.

Gammaray wrote:It is true that you cannot alienate a fanbase and expect to sell a game.

There are few game companies that set out on a mission to alienate a fanbase. At the time, sometimes said fanbase needs to understand that it's just a tiny pixel compared to a much larger image. Descent 3 didn't sell. You could blame it on lousy marketing. You could blame it on being a lousy game. Personally, I blame it on a game mechanic that is too foreign to everyone except that devoted fanbase. Space sim games have unfortunately succumbed to the same fate.

A devoted fanbase of 30 or so people does not make for a successful game. You could probably find 30 devout fans of any game. But that's not going to sell a million copies because the masses simply won't be interested in buying it. The primary objective of any company is to make a profit to finance future games. If that fundamental goal is not satisfied, they won't be in business for long.

My point? The Descent fanbase is so small that it probably wouldn't make or break a game to ignore its loudest members.

Gammaray wrote:I've done enough design/production work for the CS/HL/Q2 community to know that it's not easy... don't compare my experience being non-paid to his. some of us do this for fun, and it's just as hard no matter how you view it.

Actually, I find the professional side is quite different from the hobbyist side where I started. So much of designing a video game from scratch is unreliable. You work with unreliable tools. Your levels very frequently crash and you have to deduce why. So often, you feel you take one step forward only to take two steps back. D3Edit and UnrealEd are luxuries!

And there are deadlines and milestones and demands from overhead that simply have to be met. You think the Descent community is picky? Heh.

No I think the Descent3 community is spoiled rotten.

You still think I am only talking about D3... I merely used one obvious reason why D3 didn't sell (remember the part in my first post about hardware acceleration requirements when it was still too fresh for the mainstream (also my biggest point that you totally ignored)) to make an example of why these things happen. (game designers going under)

And yes, some studios completely ignore user input and wonder why their games don't sell... Although I will agree that if they tried too hard to listen, we'd end up with more games like forsaken which to me is still not a pretty picture.

It's a risky trade, some have a knack for it, some don't... still others just plain loose it and screw up.

Give em hell LD and Kyo

Mobius, it's amazing how little you know and how much you pretend to know.

Mobius wrote:I guess outrage dying was a sad day for Descent fans. Volition dying would be a happy day for us.

Why would Volition dying be a happy day?

Mobius wrote:If Volition died, then Paralax would be the only thing standing in the way of Descent 4. Oh, that and the $4.70 Interplay has left...

How is Parallax standing in the way of Descent 4, and what does Volition have to do with it?

Mobius wrote:Nope, Outrage dying didn't have a huge impact on the community - except that it "freed up" Kevin Bentley to work on the *cough* *cough* D3 1.5 patch - which is expected any time [sarcasm]real soon[/sarcasm].

Ok, now that's just flat out wrong. Most of the work that's been done on the 1.5 patch was done while Outrage still existed.

Mobius wrote:Pxo is dead - and KQuery doesn't seem to list any servers for me. So I'm stuck with one opponent on my LAN...

Of course you are. That's what you get when you don't ask anyone for help with your software.

Mobius wrote:The *NEW* D3 is out in two weeks, and my Half Life 2 voucher awaits usage.

That's pathetic.

Mobius wrote:Pretty much resigned to never have the rush that is Descent online again.

That's even more pathetic.

edit: I just read this thread. Hi Marc!

Parallax was the major impediment to Descent 4 (read my post above). But the death of Volition wouldn't affect matters.

Parallax was the major impediment to Descent 4 (read my post above).

Your post above:

DCrazy wrote:Yes, Parallax was indeed the legal block to ODS' development of D4.

I don't know the whole story with ODS and Parallax. What exactly happened?

You happen to have quoted the sentence that begins the paragraph explaining why Parallax was blocking D4.

DCrazy wrote:You happen to have quoted the sentence that begins the paragraph explaining why Parallax was blocking D4.

DCrazy wrote: About this time ODS started getting real serious about grabbing the legal rights to D4, but nobody at Parallax would speak to anyone at Interplay (or even me, Deathwinger, or Valin Halcyon) so the project died.

Is this what you're talking about or are you refering to something else? I wanted you to be more specific. Did ODS have a working relationship with Interplay?

I'm not sure about the details, but Valin was in dialogue with someone towards the top of the food chain at Interplay. Interplay was willing to let ODS develop the game and they would take care of marketing. Basically Interplay would have walked away with a free game.

From what I could gather this was more of an informal agreement than a formal contract; both parties were waiting for Parallax to relinquish the development rights before getting into the legal business. As far as I know, Valin's still talking with Herve Caen, but I don't know on what scale.

Ferno wrote:

You know these High Octane blokes who are claiming they are building a Descent clone? I wish the community would just shut up and let High Octane make a good game, their way. Frankly, I'm tired of the elite preaching, dictating, and demanding their precise, biased visions.

Concur.

Well, I would hope that the people over there (at least some of them) know a little bit about economics. And, the truth is the descent community doesn't make decisions in High Octane. So, they are making a descent clone. So, they are taking suggestions from the descent community... do you think that they are really going to treat them as anything more then suggestions? I wouldn't. They want us to get hyped about their game, but at the same time they know how many we are- they know that they can't make a profit off of just us. Just because they are throwing us a bone and letting us voice our opinions doesn't mean that they are letting us run the show. Let people talk all they want- HO is wise to try to pull us in, but I also think they are wise enough to know that pulling the rest of the world in is even more important. Descenters can dictate, demand and preach all they want, I'm sure the people at HO won't get pushed around by a loud minority.

Having contact with the community is the best thing that a developer/publisher can do. Most of them shun the community away and just plain ignore them. Then next day they are faced with lower than expected earnings and wonder what went wrong...

Mobius wrote:Pretty much resigned to never have the rush that is Descent online again.

But who will feed the fairies?

Kyouryuu wrote:

Mobius wrote:Pretty much resigned to never have the rush that is Descent online again.

But who will feed the fairies?

Thats a good one K!

^_^