DescentBB

Posted: **Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:43 pm**

Remember how some idiotic bleeding heart types wanted the U.S. to put water out in the desert so the poor illegals wouldn't die from thirst? The following is un-corroborated so make your own assesment:

" On or about the early morning hours of June 13, 2004 Border patrol agents from the Wilcox station encountered a large group of suspected illegal border crossers, estimated to be around 100, just east of the Sanders Ranch near the foothills of the Chiricauha Mountains. 71 suspected illegal aliens were apprehended; among them were 53 males of middle-eastern decent. According to a Border Patrol field agent, the men were suspected to be Iranian or possibly Syrian nationals. "One thing's for sure, these guys didn't speak Spanish and after we questioned them harder we discovered they spoke poor English with a middle-eastern accent, then we caught them speaking to each other in Arabic...this is ridiculous that we don't take this more seriously, and we're told not to say a thing to the media, but I have to," said the agent, whose name will obviously remain anonymous.
The agent stated the men were wearing the traditional uniform of migrants - baseball caps, tennis shoes, some had work boots, denim jeans and many had t-shirts with patriotic American flags and slogans. The agent added the following description "A curious thing I noticed was that they all had brand new clothing and they looked as if they had just been to the barber shop, you know, new haircuts. They were clean cut and they all had almost the exact cut of mustaches."

Posted: **Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:52 pm**

Until these guys actually crash planes into the city and kill thousands we can't blame the Cheney/Haliburton connection for whatever they end up doing...so lets step back, take a breath and wait.

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:57 am**

Whered you find this? Id be interested in the full article.

As for my view on water stations in the desert...theyre entering illegally, they know what theyre getting into. Survival of the fittest. I sure as hell dont want them here, taking a job for a buck fifty an hour that an AMERICAN would be paid 6 to do.

But yeah. Post the full article so we can see what else THESE particular illegals were doing.

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:36 am**

Link:
http://tinyurl.com/6xkf7

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:53 am**

More reasons showing our troops are protecting the wrong borders

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:34 pm**

bleeding heart types wanted the U.S. to put water out in the desert so the poor illegals wouldn't die from thirst?

Woodchip, you have never made me prouder to consider myself a "bleeding heart liberal."

Need more comfort stations.

I'll give you $100 if you complete just an 8 mile hike with me in the superstitions without a canteen/water. Granted, I'll have some "comfort" water with me should you fail. Just because I'm a nice bleeding heart liberal that way.

As for my view on water stations in the desert...theyre entering illegally, they know what theyre getting into.

Many do not, when was the last time you have been hiking in Arizona? Just because you live in a hot area doesn't mean that you have the slightest clue about what it takes to trek across an entire desert. They are not comming here to rob our banks, they are comming here to mop the floors.

Survival of the fittest.

You would die.

I sure as hell dont want them here

and the Native Americans didn't want you here. Where is your point? They are doing the exact same thing your ancestors did and more then likely for the exact same reasons: wanting a better life. Hard to fault them for this...

taking a job for a buck fifty an hour that an AMERICAN would be paid 6 to do.

I see very few Americans picking lettice as it is. If an American was desperietely seeking such a job, we all know there would be a lawsuit instantly against the farms and he would win, and probably then some. That is the American way.

It is becomming more and more of a mute issue these days. Many homes that are located in the middle of the desert provide their own water stations. And thank god, there is nothing that the government can do about it!

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:28 pm**

What a primitive and barbaric perspective. So embarrassing.

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:29 pm**

Woody.. y'know, there wouldn't be a problem if most people down there actually worked instead of complaining.

also, who would you hire? someone who knows about minimum wage and demands it or someone who will do the same kind of work for less than minimum wage?

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:23 pm**

...wanted the U.S. to put water out in the desert so the poor illegals wouldn't die from thirst?

If you put a few on the American side of the border, you've got the flies-to-honey effect. Have INS hiding somewhere nearby, then send the buggers back. Of course, I suppose once you step into Congress, on your first day, you have to check common sense at the door...

Posted: **Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:57 pm**

Have INS hiding somewhere nearby, then send the buggers back.

Heh, you could have a 10 foot sign that said INS with water underneith and they would still come. When your too the point of drinking your own urine, as those who have died end up doing, you could care less about the INS.

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:07 am**

Notch it back, Goob, it's not the Sahara.

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:03 am**

Bash, read "Dead in their tracks," by John Annerino.

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:37 am**

"I'll give you $100 if you complete just an 8 mile hike with me in the superstitions without a canteen/water. Granted, I'll have some "comfort" water with me should you fail. Just because I'm a nice bleeding heart liberal that way." Goob.

Careful what you wish for. Since I'm probably 30 years older than you it wouldn't be much of a match...I'd take your C note and buy you a beer later. In the marines we used to go on 10 mile runs in the desert out at 29 Palms CA and we certainly didn't stop for a drink until we got back. 'Course that was 35 years ago so I'd have to stop and walk every now and then to catch my breath

I think the point here is anyone going into the desert should be smart enough to take water with them. When I hiked in the Bullion Mts and up around Inyokern I don't recall any comfort stations.

"also, who would you hire? someone who knows about minimum wage and demands it or someone who will do the same kind of work for less than minimum wage?"Ferno

First I would look at work ethic. I'd pay more for someone wanting to work and learn over someone with more experience that is only there to collect a pay check. Just so you know I have always paid more than minimum wage.

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:53 am**

I spent most of my youth playing in the desert, one of our favorite hangouts was border marker #1. It's a cement pillar that marks the points where Texas, New Mexico and Mexico come together. You can piss in two countries and three states by walking around the marker while you pee. We killed many kegs there

I've probably cossed between Mexico and Texas at least a thousand times and over 99.9% of those were illegal crossings and only ONCE have I been spotted by border patrol! It was midnight on christmas eve, me and a buddy taking my Volkswagon Dasher out for some dirt road hellraising and beer drinking. He took one look at our gringo blue eyes and waived us on....

With a daily water supply the desert is an easy enviroment to manage. Without water you won't last long so you better have the ability to get some fast...make a solar still...find the right kind of cactus...find the border patrol (a rare sight)...

If we did somehow succesfully close the border I bet within 2 years we would change our minds and open it on purpose to fulfill the void in the labor market.
We would do better to treat the problem realistically by having them cross where they can be screened so the islamikazi's can't hide among the latino's.

Better yet, we should work a deal to annex Mexico!

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:17 am**

"First I would look at work ethic. I'd pay more for someone wanting to work and learn over someone with more experience that is only there to collect a pay check."

You just made my point dude.

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:28 am**

This thread reminded me immediately of a line from an Indigo Girls tune:

He said, we're lookin for illegal immigrants, can we check your car?
I said, funny I think we were on the same boat back in 1694.

The song's appropriately named Shame on You.

Many Americans would rather not work and live on welfare than take a job for minimum wage. The fact is, our country's commercial/industrial infrastructure is driven by these so-called illegal aliens and we could not, would not, function without them.

Get used to it, boys, the government is already taking steps that will make it easier for a Mexican to come here, get a job, buy a home, drive a car and be taxed.

My family on both sides were poor European peasants who came here to make a new life for themselves. How could I possibly deny someone else the same opportunity?

Oh, and by the way, most of these "illegal aliens" do not work for 2 bucks an hour. As someone who works in a neighborhood with a healthy, growing hispanic community, I know first hand that a 90% of these people are making at least minimum wage.

Mexicans are hard working, Christian people with a strong work ethic and a lifestyle that revolves around respect for elders and love for their children. Most of them do not drink or do drugs. They are kind hearted, honest, people. It's those lazy dope smokin' Canadians we have to worry about

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:59 am**

Wood, the point was even if you made the 8 miles, which would still be commendable, it is still nothing compared to the distance they travel. Many of them don't even know the way, and there are several stories of Coyotes (whom they paid a small fortun, for them, to be helped accross) getting lost and abandoning them.

If any of you are interested in more detail of what they go through, read the book that I recommended to Bash. While it focuses on what they go through just to make it, it also spends a good deal of time, and even photographs, of those who don't. There is one story of a man who hung himself with his own belt to avoid dieing of thirst, his two empty water jugs were found under him.

Posted: **Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:37 pm**

Advice: stop trying to make wood not what he is. It ain't worth the effort.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:32 am**

and what's that Mayhem, a human being worth more than two cents?

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:21 am**

punisher wrote:Mexicans are hard working, Christian people with a strong work ethic and a lifestyle that revolves around respect for elders and love for their children.

Thanks. That needed to be said. Just because one tries to cross into the US illegally to find work and a better life, doesn't make one worthless. The Mexicans and South Americans that come here looking for work are some of the hardest working folks I have ever seen.

At some point in the mid eighties, I forget the exact year; the INS came into Avalon (a town on Catalina Island) and rounded up the illegals. The next day, the hotels, stores, restaurants, and such didn't open. The city of Avalon complained to the INS that their little round up hurt the city financially. The INS didn't come back.

My point is these people perform a vital service to the communities in which they work. Without them, a lot of the products and services we take for granted would either disappear or would cost us much more. Before you say we should get rid of them, think through the consequences and implication of that.

Now to address the relevant topic. I have always been in favor of a migrant worker program administered on the National level. This would allow cheap labor into the country in a controlled manner. If done right, not only would it serve as a good screening mechanism to catch undesirables such as the alleged Iranian/Syrian terrorists but it would also give our government a way to track and TAX those non citizens working in this country.

I donâ??t hold out much hope for such a system though. There are still too many Americans who view those that come into this country looking for work as common criminals trying to take jobs away from law abiding Americans. Law breakers they are (they are here illegally), common criminals they are not.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:37 am**

My point is these people perform a vital service to the communities in which they work. Without them, a lot of the products and services we take for granted would either disappear or would cost us much more. Before you say we should get rid of them, think through the consequences and implication of that.

Word to ya mutha!
I live in the central valley and it's flooding with illegals working in the fields. These people work for change and do jobs that you couldn't pay Americans enough to do. Still, many of them come here and take advantage of our social system and do nothing but produce children for money..Our problem isn't the people who come here to work and "make a better life in America" (that's such B.S, they send their money back to Mexico... avoiding taxes) our problem is the leaches.

B-

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:21 pm**

Exactly! That's why we should screen them coming in with a smile and a welcome and tax them too.
Then we can spot some of those islamikazi's trying to impersonate latino's and ship their sorry butts back to Ossamaland.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:25 pm**

This is a tricky subject- and a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of thing, if you ask me. I wouldn't provide any help for illegal aliens, but then maybe I'm heartless. One thing that I think alot of people are wrong about: Illegal workers in the U.S. hurt the economy, no matter what services they provide or whatever they do- they are still decreasing the gross worth thats flowing into the country. The money payed to them is mostly money going straight out of our economy. Short-term it makes our life easier and it makes things cheaper. Long term it makes the country poorer.

[edit] maybe a good solution would be to crack down hard on those who illegally employ aliens. The only problem with that is it would just cause them to set up shop in Mexico (or China) instead of here in the U.S.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:29 pm**

To get back to the original point:

Making it easier to sneak into the country is not the right solution. Making it so current illegals can instead come work legally is.

Among other things, if there isn't much of a demand for people to be smuggled in to the US (because it's easier for workers to get in legally), it'll be harder for a group of Islamikazes to sneak in. The border patrol can actually focus on threats to the country, instead of honest hard-working people who just want a job and have to cross a border to get one.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:53 pm**

heh, your making it so they don't die, not so that its "easier" too sneak across.

The money payed to them is mostly money going straight out of our economy. Short-term it makes our life easier and it makes things cheaper. Long term it makes the country poorer.

I don't believe this. If you look back to some of the arguments that those made for slavery, the main one was that the "pie was only so big." I'm not equating this to slavery at all, just using this as an example to show that the pie grows. It can be a positive sum game for us, and mexico.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:02 pm**

Moderator note: one trolling post has been deleted.

Goob: pay attention to my counter-solution: making it so that they can get across easily without any risk of losing their life. That makes it so they don't even have to *risk* dying. (And, by the way, reducing the risk of death *does* make it "easier". So much for your semantic argument.)

Comfort stations make it so fewer people die when sneaking across the border -- but a *better solution* is to make it so that people don't have to sneak across the border at all. This reduces the risk of death by a lot more, and also increases the security of the country. What's not to like?

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:03 pm**

Edit: Post I was first responding too was deleted...

Lothar, your solution ignores the here and now, and you are changing the topic. I would be in favor of your solution, if it gets passed, and if it is effective at stopping people from trying to sneak in. Lets just say I'm not at all optimistic of such a solution being passed. Trust me, if it got passed and was as effective as it would need to be, you would be hard pressed to find a stronger supporter.

But here and now I could care less, the water stations need to be there why the politicians are out to lunch. You should support this. If you saw these people you would support this. (which is basically what I was going to say to Z...)

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:45 pm**

Water stations are better than nothing, sure. In the "here and now", water stations would probably make a difference, while a law like what I proposed would take some time to get passed. But then, I don't know how immediately either one could go into effect. And I'm not going to bother arguing about timelines with anyone -- because none of us has the expertise to really have any clue.

Here's all I'm saying: long-term, adding comfort stations doesn't solve the problem (and it doesn't help national security.) Creating a sensible immigration / temporary worker system solves the problem (and helps national security). I support the long-term solution, and I'd like to see it passed as soon as possible.

What do I think about the short-term solution? I think it's just that -- a short-term solution. If it's necessary now, do it now, but don't pretend it fixes anything long-term.

I don't share woodchip's perspective, so you and Zuruck can quit trying to argue with me as if I do.

Posted: **Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:01 pm**

I don't share woodchip's perspective, so you and Zuruck can quit trying to argue with me as if I do.

I'm not. I think if woodchip saw these people he would immediately call INS and still be against it.

But then, I don't know how immediately either one could go into effect.

I'm not sure if you skimmed or what, but as I said above, many are already in effect privately. One of the "hot topics" for our local talk radio programs isn't for more, but it is if the private ones should be forced to take them down! There needs to be more, but it's a start.

And I'm not going to bother arguing about timelines with anyone -- because none of us has the expertise to really have any clue.

I'm not arguing time-line. I said realistically I don't think your solution, one that would end illegal immigration, would ever get passed. I'm all in favor of it if it does! But I would be shocked to see any bill that allowed more Mexicans into Arizona being passed by our conservative majority.

So I guess in my view, the short-term solution seems to be the only realistic solution.

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:33 am**

Advice: stop trying to make wood not what he is. It ain't worth the effort. MehYam

and what's that Mayhem, a human being worth more than two cents? Herr Zuruck

As Sickone would say, "Feel the love".

The operative word here is "illegal". If I'm not mistaken (and I usually ain't

) people who want to work here can get a temporary work permit, cross the boarder legally and not have to promote "water stations" in the desert. I get pretty tired of "bleeding hearts" promoting illegal activities over perfectly legal ways of doing things. Better than water stations, why don't we just give mexicans free money so they don't have to cross our borders and risk becoming brown parchment.
If Mexicans want to live here permanently, all they have to do is go thru the immigration process.

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:01 am**

Follow the law, and it will be your friend. One things that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that these people are getting taken advantage of alot of times here, because employers know they are illegal, therefore they know that they can get away with murder. If said people where here legally, they would be able to rely on the laws here, such as minimum wage, and would probably end up better off from it.

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:14 am**

snoopy wrote:maybe a good solution would be to crack down hard on those who illegally employ aliens. The only problem with that is it would just cause them to set up shop in Mexico (or China) instead of here in the U.S.

See my original post.

Dedman wrote:I have always been in favor of a migrant worker program administered on the National level. This would allow cheap labor into the country in a controlled manner. If done right, not only would it serve as a good screening mechanism to catch undesirables such as the alleged Iranian/Syrian terrorists but it would also give our government a way to track and TAX those non citizens working in this country.

Lothar wrote:Among other things, if there isn't much of a demand for people to be smuggled in to the US (because it's easier for workers to get in legally), it'll be harder for a group of Islamikazes to sneak in. The border patrol can actually focus on threats to the country, instead of honest hard-working people who just want a job and have to cross a border to get one.

You mean once again Lothar and I actually agree? Either I am getting more conservative as I age, or he is getting more enlightened

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:57 am**

Dedman wrote:See my original post.

I saw it. I know what your point was, but I think it misses the mark. Those places that couldn't open ended up having to hire Americans- helping the national economy by reducing unemployment and reducing the amount of money going out of the country. It may have temporarily hurt the town financially, but I'm arguing that it helped the country (probably even the city) financially in the long run.

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 11:21 am**

snoopy wrote:
Dedman wrote:See my original post.
I saw it. I know what your point was, but I think it misses the mark. Those places that couldn't open ended up having to hire Americans- helping the national economy by reducing unemployment and reducing the amount of money going out of the country. It may have temporarily hurt the town financially, but I'm arguing that it helped the country (probably even the city) financially in the long run.

Nope. Those places that didn't open either ended up staying closed for two or so days or making due with what they could scrape together until more illegals could make their way to the island

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:09 pm**

I'm starting to wonder why the harbormaster back in the 1800s didnt turn the boat that carried your heritage woody back to sea...

Posted: **Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:20 pm**

Zuruck wrote:I'm starting to wonder why the harbormaster back in the 1800s didnt turn the boat that carried your heritage woody back to sea...

Because America needed my heritage so your heritage had someplace to escape to in the ninteenth century.

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 12:29 am**

Maddox, the ruler of the universe wrote:"Because saying that an illegal immigrant doesn't deserve to be paid the same wages as an American because he doesn't belong here in the first place is like saying that a person trapped in a well shouldn't be saved because he shouldn't have been playing around the well in the first place."

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:17 am**

Link: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

"There's an American, let's take his job!!!"

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 1:28 am**

I figured everyone knew the addy.. so i didn't put it on.

Posted: **Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:46 pm**

Back onto topic:

Eddie Flores of the U.S. Border Patrol office in McAllen, Texas tells FederalNewsRadio.com that a review of her papers raised some concerns.

"In looking at her documents, they did not find any entry documents in her passport where she was legally admitted into the United States," says Flores.

Ahmed produced a South African passport to the agents with four pages torn out, and with no U.S. entry stamps. Ahmed reportedly later confessed to investigators that she entered the country illegally by crossing the Rio Grande River. Ahmed was carrying travel itineraries showing a July 8 flight from Johannesburg, South Africa to London. Six days later, Ahmed traveled from London to Mexico City before attempting to travel from McAllen to New York.

Government sources tell FederalNewsRadio.com that capturing this woman could be comparable to the arrest of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of 9/11. It was revealed in court Tuesday that she was on a watch list and had entered the U.S. possibly as many as 250 times.

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=236719