Taking this one to new thread.
Now, I know that this isn't necessarily an Islam thing, America has its share of problems with gangs both domestic and imported. The thing is, they're nowhere close to "taking over" one of our cities. I know that several countries are represented on this board, and I hope that Sweden has someone here as well. I'd like to know what's really going on and if this is an Islamist thing, or just too many lawless immigrant youth (without religion entering into it).
If Islamic extremism is the root cause, does it not shoot a big hole in the "leave the terrorists alone and they'll leave us alone" argument? If it is just an anomalous concentration of misspent youth, how did it get so badly out of hand in Malm?
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Muslims rule major Swedish city - September 09, 2004
from http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
An exclusive series of translations from the Swedish press, made for Jihad Watch by Ali Dashti, who writes:
Sweden is one of the worst hit countries in Europe of Muslim immigration and Political Correctness. Now, the police themselves have publicly admitted that they no longer control one of Sweden's major cities. I have made some exclusive translations from Swedish media. They show the future of Eurabia unless Europeans wake up.
I've seen the future of Eurabia, and it's called 'Sweden.' Malm is Sweden's third largest city, after Stockholm and Gothenburg. Once-peaceful Sweden, home of ABBA, IKEA and the Nobel Prize, is increasingly looking like the Middle East on a bad day.
All following links to major Swedish newspapers, with a brief
translation:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/s ... 10,00.html
Malm , Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Roseng Rd, Malm , for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized. "Something drastic has to be done, or much more blood will be spilled" says one of the locals.
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10092861
The number of people emigrating from the city of Malm is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim "refugees" and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving.
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se/Article.jsp?article=10090830
ALL of the 600 windows at one of the schools in Malm have been broken during the summer holiday. Window smashing alone costs the city millions every year. City buses have been forced to avoid the immigrant ghetto, as they are met with youths throwing rocks or bottles at them if they enter. Earlier this year, a boy of Afghan origin had made plans to blow up his own school.
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10093267
People working at the emergency ward at the major hospital in Malm
receive threats every day, and are starting to get used to it. Patients with knives or guns are commonplace. They have discussed having metal detectors at the emergency entrance, but some fear this could be seen as a provocation.
http://w1.sydsvenskan.se//Article.jsp?article=10093495
Lisa Nilsson has lived in Manhatten, New York City, for 25 years. After moving back to Malm , Sweden, she now misses the safety of New York. She never walks anywhere in Malm after dark, but takes a taxi everywhere she goes.
http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=180423
Rapes in Sweden as a whole have increased by 17% just since the beginning of 2003, and have had a dramatic increase during the past decade. Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds brutally raped a 13-year-old Swedish girl.
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/s ... 63,00.html
22-year-old Swedish woman going out for fresh air gang raped by three strange men. The only said one word to her: "*****!"
(w h o r e)
Ali Dashti comments: "Stories like this are in Swedish newspapers every week. Swedish media usually take great care not to mention the ethnic background of the perpetrators, but you can usually read it between the lines."
One more: how have Swedish politicians reacted to the chaos caused in one of their major cities because of Muslims of whom even the police seem to be afraid? By making it easier for Muslims to enter Sweden:
http://www.cphpost.dk/get/81008.html
Sweden's politicians view arranged marriages as a positive tradition: a cultural pattern that immigrants should be allowed to preserve even in Sweden. The Swedish government feels that interfering in arranged marriages is an encroachment upon private life. In addition, immigrant couples can apply for family reunification in Sweden even if they've never seen each other before - as long as the marriage is entered in a culture with a tradition of parents arranging marriages on behalf of their children. A 2002 study by V xj University economics professor Jan Ekberg found that immigration cost Swedish taxpayers DKK 33 billion that year, compared to just DKK 10 billion in Denmark. And while one might assume that the rise in costs would result in knee-jerk opposition to immigration, just the opposite has happened in Sweden. A Swedish government commission has proposed abolishing the so-called "seriousness requirement."[/
The situation in Sweden
Moderators: Tunnelcat, Jeff250
A good arugment for strong and sane immigration policy.
If your nation is tradtionally a mono-culture, then you don't go just opening your doors to the world, a mass of a foreign culture would start feeling like second-class citizens, simply on appearances, then enclavism starts to set in, especially if the immigrants have no employment that lets them interact with the rest of society.
If your nation is tradtionally a mono-culture, then you don't go just opening your doors to the world, a mass of a foreign culture would start feeling like second-class citizens, simply on appearances, then enclavism starts to set in, especially if the immigrants have no employment that lets them interact with the rest of society.
In Dearborn MI, we have a large middle eastern population but I don't think I've heard anything quite like Swedens problem occuring here.
It is interesting that the trouble makers immigrated to escape what? Persecution? Sadistic govt.leaders? Perhaps those govt leaders knew something that Sweden doesn't.
It is interesting that the trouble makers immigrated to escape what? Persecution? Sadistic govt.leaders? Perhaps those govt leaders knew something that Sweden doesn't.
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Ford Prefect
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Huge numbers of immigrants here in Richmond B.C. Mostly wealthy asians who have arrived in the last 10 years. It is strange to have your community change. The library has a growing Mandrin/Cantonese section while the English title list shortens. There are huge brand new shopping centers where no English is posted and no English can be heard spoken. Events like the "night market" are huge successes. Young asian kids drive BMWs and Lexus living on their parents no limit credit card. The majority of my co-workers and many of my children's friends are asian. My blond haired-blue eyed children stick out like sore thumbs in their class room photos. Tea bars and karaoke rooms abound.
It is a bit of culture shock but the city is growing and still a very nice place to live.
It is a bit of culture shock but the city is growing and still a very nice place to live.
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Wolf on Air
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/me is Swedish. This is just a quick reply, I may look closer at the articles later...
First of all; of note is that two of the three cited newspapers - Aftonbladet ("the evening paper") and Expressen ("the Express") are tabloids. I trust you're familiar with the sort. Exaggeration of facts, or even fabrication, isn't exactly unknown from either one. They sell headlines. Sydsvenska Dagbladet ("the South-Swedish Daily") is a serious newspaper, on the other hand. The article from them mainly concern people carrying knives in public (prohibited by Swedish law except for f.ex. construction workers). Knife-wielding is most definitely a cross-ethnic problem here. I can't say whether Malmö is more violent now than it's been, either, but the "immigrants are the root of all evil" angle seems rather implausible. There's plenty of native nutcases too. A "ghetto" is never good, obviously. I live rather far from Malmö, so I can't tell you anything about the city from personal experience.
Second; the translations of the source articles seem rather selective and intended to incite even more sensation than even the source. If there's interest, I could try writing a complete translation of each article.
First of all; of note is that two of the three cited newspapers - Aftonbladet ("the evening paper") and Expressen ("the Express") are tabloids. I trust you're familiar with the sort. Exaggeration of facts, or even fabrication, isn't exactly unknown from either one. They sell headlines. Sydsvenska Dagbladet ("the South-Swedish Daily") is a serious newspaper, on the other hand. The article from them mainly concern people carrying knives in public (prohibited by Swedish law except for f.ex. construction workers). Knife-wielding is most definitely a cross-ethnic problem here. I can't say whether Malmö is more violent now than it's been, either, but the "immigrants are the root of all evil" angle seems rather implausible. There's plenty of native nutcases too. A "ghetto" is never good, obviously. I live rather far from Malmö, so I can't tell you anything about the city from personal experience.
Second; the translations of the source articles seem rather selective and intended to incite even more sensation than even the source. If there's interest, I could try writing a complete translation of each article.
Even though the events referred to in Pebkac's thread starter takes place in Sweden/Malmø, I do feel; as someone living in Denmark, only 30 km., from the city in question, able to bring some clarification to the problems mentioned.
Especially since almost all these headlines and events described therein, are but mirrors of ones appearing in Danish papers, because we too have the same problems, and the underlying causes are also the same.
To get a perspective on the problems facing both Sweden and Denmark, you must realize that both countries and most of the rest of Scandinavia were; until the mid-60â??s, not only in a large part mono-cultures but also mono-ethnic. Ethnic dissention until this time was almost totally unknown.
The most recent was during the late 30â??s early 40â??s when there was a certain amount of latent anti-Semitism in certain segments of society egged on by Nazi propaganda from our southern neighbour in Germany. Resulting in some Danes fighting on the side of the Germans in Russia. But that this latent anti- Semitism, was never such a problem can be seen in the fact that when the Nazi occupiers of Denmark decided to send the Danish Jews, to concentration/extermination camps, a concerted action by large segments of the population saw about 90% of the Danish Jews smuggled out of the country into then neutral Sweden, thereby saving them from almost certain death.
After that the only real ethnic conflict were on the soccer fields, and when fellow Scandinavians came down to Denmark to take advantage of our more liberal alcohol laws getting tight and having to be sent into one of Copenhagenâ??s scenic canals for a cooling off.
The root cause of the present ethnic/religious dissention is due partly to the influx of large numbers of what were then called guest-workers who were induced by high wages and employers in need of labour, to come to Scandinavia from the mid-60â??s to mid-70â??s. At that time the Scandinavian economy was booming, and there was a serious labour shortage. So an obvious solution to prospective labour starved employers, and short sighted public officials, was the bringing in of these non-skilled guest-workers from countries like Turkey and Pakistan and the then Yugoslavia. These workers were more then willing to do the menial non-skilled jobs. The reasoning behind this was that these guest-workers would remain here in Scandinavia on short-term contracts after which they would return to their countries of origin, and eventually be replaced as needed by other short term guest-workers. What was unforeseen was, that once they had received the equivalent of the green card and having experienced the benefits of living in a wealthy western style society, these guest-workers settled in to stay.
The problem was further exacerbated by a large influx of refugees fleeing conflicts in their native lands. The main groups of these refugees were from Ceylon, Palestine, Somalia and from the former Yugoslavia. While there was diverse ethnic origins, the main religion of these refugees were Islamic. This together with the original guest-workers; together with their descendants, have resulted in a large Islamic minority; aprox., 8 â?? 10%, now living in what was formerly relative mono-cultural and mono-ethnic countries. Countries totally unprepared for the problems such ethnic diversity would entail.
Problems further frustrated by the fact that these countries never having envisioned the need for proper emigration legislation, resulted in legislation having to play catch-up ever since. With the consequences of laws made on the fly; so to say, which are filled with loopholes, that again had/have to be modified.
In part the main problem preventing the integration of this large minority into mainstream society has to do with the laws dealing with Family Reunification. Once residence permits have been obtained, then the new resident can apply to have family members brought over as new residents. While the authorities attempt to implement stringent guide lines for Family Reunification, such a financial bonds have to be posted for the new resident, these are easily circumvented by use of loopholes in the legislation. One being that a bond is simply passed on from one new resident to another.
The latest action taken by Danish authorities is to prohibit arranged marriages for anyone under the age of 24. But by having the arranged spouse go to Sweden and being married there where there is no such legislation, easily circumvents the Danish legislation.
Another legislation was taken to prevent the abhorrent custom; practised by the mainly Somali Islamic refugees; of having their girls circumcised. Laws were passed that made both the parents and the person performing such a barbaric ritual criminally libel. But again itâ??s easily avoided by sending the girls out of the country to have it done.
When my family and I were immigrants living in Canada in the 50â??s and 60â??s, integration was mainly a 1st generation phenomenon. Schools, workplaces and neighbourhoods were such a mishmash of ethnic diversity that hardly anyone gave it the slightest heed. A situation that enabled the 2nd generation to simply join mainstream Canadian society without the onus of being of different ethnicity. Because in all essential ways we adopted the mores of our adopted country, in the same way emigrants to the USA adopted theirs. Not so, with a large part of our Islamic community!
Yes, I know that this statement will risk being branded racist and bigoted. But in this context it true.
I have mentioned that in the past decade we have here in Scandinavia taken in people from a large portion of the globe. These have beside the Islamic elements included people from Vietnam, Chinese, Ceylonese and Slavs, and these people have in the main become intergraded into Scandinavian society, whereas large number of the Islamic community hasnâ??t.
It is no longer a question of the 1st generation having trouble adapting to a new society, we are now in the 3rd generation, and many still retain the same social patterns of the previous generations. A problem that isnâ??t lessened by their habit of bringing new spouses over from the old country, or by having children who show signs of acquiring western values, being sent back to the old country for a few months of de-programming.
All in all it can come as no surprise that integration is one of the main topics in both private and in the media here in Scandinavia.
Especially since almost all these headlines and events described therein, are but mirrors of ones appearing in Danish papers, because we too have the same problems, and the underlying causes are also the same.
To get a perspective on the problems facing both Sweden and Denmark, you must realize that both countries and most of the rest of Scandinavia were; until the mid-60â??s, not only in a large part mono-cultures but also mono-ethnic. Ethnic dissention until this time was almost totally unknown.
The most recent was during the late 30â??s early 40â??s when there was a certain amount of latent anti-Semitism in certain segments of society egged on by Nazi propaganda from our southern neighbour in Germany. Resulting in some Danes fighting on the side of the Germans in Russia. But that this latent anti- Semitism, was never such a problem can be seen in the fact that when the Nazi occupiers of Denmark decided to send the Danish Jews, to concentration/extermination camps, a concerted action by large segments of the population saw about 90% of the Danish Jews smuggled out of the country into then neutral Sweden, thereby saving them from almost certain death.
After that the only real ethnic conflict were on the soccer fields, and when fellow Scandinavians came down to Denmark to take advantage of our more liberal alcohol laws getting tight and having to be sent into one of Copenhagenâ??s scenic canals for a cooling off.
The root cause of the present ethnic/religious dissention is due partly to the influx of large numbers of what were then called guest-workers who were induced by high wages and employers in need of labour, to come to Scandinavia from the mid-60â??s to mid-70â??s. At that time the Scandinavian economy was booming, and there was a serious labour shortage. So an obvious solution to prospective labour starved employers, and short sighted public officials, was the bringing in of these non-skilled guest-workers from countries like Turkey and Pakistan and the then Yugoslavia. These workers were more then willing to do the menial non-skilled jobs. The reasoning behind this was that these guest-workers would remain here in Scandinavia on short-term contracts after which they would return to their countries of origin, and eventually be replaced as needed by other short term guest-workers. What was unforeseen was, that once they had received the equivalent of the green card and having experienced the benefits of living in a wealthy western style society, these guest-workers settled in to stay.
The problem was further exacerbated by a large influx of refugees fleeing conflicts in their native lands. The main groups of these refugees were from Ceylon, Palestine, Somalia and from the former Yugoslavia. While there was diverse ethnic origins, the main religion of these refugees were Islamic. This together with the original guest-workers; together with their descendants, have resulted in a large Islamic minority; aprox., 8 â?? 10%, now living in what was formerly relative mono-cultural and mono-ethnic countries. Countries totally unprepared for the problems such ethnic diversity would entail.
Problems further frustrated by the fact that these countries never having envisioned the need for proper emigration legislation, resulted in legislation having to play catch-up ever since. With the consequences of laws made on the fly; so to say, which are filled with loopholes, that again had/have to be modified.
In part the main problem preventing the integration of this large minority into mainstream society has to do with the laws dealing with Family Reunification. Once residence permits have been obtained, then the new resident can apply to have family members brought over as new residents. While the authorities attempt to implement stringent guide lines for Family Reunification, such a financial bonds have to be posted for the new resident, these are easily circumvented by use of loopholes in the legislation. One being that a bond is simply passed on from one new resident to another.
The latest action taken by Danish authorities is to prohibit arranged marriages for anyone under the age of 24. But by having the arranged spouse go to Sweden and being married there where there is no such legislation, easily circumvents the Danish legislation.
Another legislation was taken to prevent the abhorrent custom; practised by the mainly Somali Islamic refugees; of having their girls circumcised. Laws were passed that made both the parents and the person performing such a barbaric ritual criminally libel. But again itâ??s easily avoided by sending the girls out of the country to have it done.
When my family and I were immigrants living in Canada in the 50â??s and 60â??s, integration was mainly a 1st generation phenomenon. Schools, workplaces and neighbourhoods were such a mishmash of ethnic diversity that hardly anyone gave it the slightest heed. A situation that enabled the 2nd generation to simply join mainstream Canadian society without the onus of being of different ethnicity. Because in all essential ways we adopted the mores of our adopted country, in the same way emigrants to the USA adopted theirs. Not so, with a large part of our Islamic community!
Yes, I know that this statement will risk being branded racist and bigoted. But in this context it true.
I have mentioned that in the past decade we have here in Scandinavia taken in people from a large portion of the globe. These have beside the Islamic elements included people from Vietnam, Chinese, Ceylonese and Slavs, and these people have in the main become intergraded into Scandinavian society, whereas large number of the Islamic community hasnâ??t.
It is no longer a question of the 1st generation having trouble adapting to a new society, we are now in the 3rd generation, and many still retain the same social patterns of the previous generations. A problem that isnâ??t lessened by their habit of bringing new spouses over from the old country, or by having children who show signs of acquiring western values, being sent back to the old country for a few months of de-programming.
All in all it can come as no surprise that integration is one of the main topics in both private and in the media here in Scandinavia.
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Ford Prefect
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I guess Sweden has a version of "The World Weekly News" 
Arol: Thank you for taking the time to write such a well thought out post. Conflict between cultures is going to be an ongoing problem over the next decades as the world population grows and many segments relocate for economic and political reasons. I wish it was possible to force all children into public school systems and outlaw religeous based private schools. Nothing breaks down barriers like loading several hundred kids of the same age group in one place. Yes yes I know, conflicts and power struggles ensue and schoolground divisions are created. But at least each side is exposed to the reality of each other instead of a propagandized version. I am willing to bet that the third gereration ethnics that have integrated the least were educated in church sponsored schools.
Arol: Thank you for taking the time to write such a well thought out post. Conflict between cultures is going to be an ongoing problem over the next decades as the world population grows and many segments relocate for economic and political reasons. I wish it was possible to force all children into public school systems and outlaw religeous based private schools. Nothing breaks down barriers like loading several hundred kids of the same age group in one place. Yes yes I know, conflicts and power struggles ensue and schoolground divisions are created. But at least each side is exposed to the reality of each other instead of a propagandized version. I am willing to bet that the third gereration ethnics that have integrated the least were educated in church sponsored schools.
Wow! Thanks for the info WoA and Arol. It's good to get some background info.
I found them while looking to refute the common assertion, "If we stop bothering Islamic terrorists, they will stop bothering us." I was also skeptical about it for the same reason you are, I would have expected to hear more about it. Trouble is, I live in America, so the possibility of this being true and not making it into our news cycles is not far-fetched.
I got them from here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/I for one would not believe a word of the articles Pebkac posted for at least two reasons: I do not know the source of the translation, and I cannot verify those stories by secondary sources. If it really is as bad as he says it is, I would have heard about it by other news agencies by now.
I found them while looking to refute the common assertion, "If we stop bothering Islamic terrorists, they will stop bothering us." I was also skeptical about it for the same reason you are, I would have expected to hear more about it. Trouble is, I live in America, so the possibility of this being true and not making it into our news cycles is not far-fetched.
Yeah, Ford, get rid of all religiously affiliated schools. Great solution, there 
. How about instead, we bring back literacy/language requirements for permanent immigration? At least in the United States, I'd like to see at least some level of English proficiency required for entering this country for an extended period of time. If I moved to another country, I'd do my best to learn at least some of the local language and culture. Why should citizens of third-world countries be given special treatment? If knowledge of the native language was required, at the very least, you'd see fewer instances of ethnic disturbances.
. How about instead, we bring back literacy/language requirements for permanent immigration? At least in the United States, I'd like to see at least some level of English proficiency required for entering this country for an extended period of time. If I moved to another country, I'd do my best to learn at least some of the local language and culture. Why should citizens of third-world countries be given special treatment? If knowledge of the native language was required, at the very least, you'd see fewer instances of ethnic disturbances.I don't trust that site as it is a propaganda news media.Pebkac wrote:I got them from here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
Just the general aura or feeling I get when I read it. It makes me want to side with them. It makes me want to chose sides. It's not necessarily what they wrote, but how they write it. It isn't written objectively, but designed to cause the reader to come to a certain conclusion the writer is supporting by giving half truths and unsupported observations.
Lobber wrote:I don't trust that site as it is a propaganda news media.Pebkac wrote:I got them from here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/
heheh.. Most news sites are; both on the net and real world. There is plenty of "interest money" out there that is slanting facts to taste. The AP is especailly bad at this. Here, the Oregonian, is horribly slanted. About the only part worth reading is the comics. And now that Calvin and Hobbs is out (and has been for years) I don't even bother with that.
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Ford Prefect
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The problem with limiting your requirements to literacy/language Top Gun is that you can produce students perfecly literate in the local language that still have not been exposed to anything but the doctrine of their particular ethnic group. Raised in a Sikh household, educated in a Sikh school, batptized in a Sikh temple, surrounded by only Sikh peer groups and at the end of adolesence guess what? You might as well grow up in the Indian state of Punjab instead of Surrey B.C.
Same applies for Muslims from Somalia and Mormons from Utah.
Same applies for Muslims from Somalia and Mormons from Utah.
Sorry for being a little short with you; I just was involved in an argument in another forum (Hard Light, if you're interested) about religiously affiliated schools that degraded into religion bashing and got the thread locked 
. While what you say may be true in a few instances, it's definitely not always the case. I went to Catholic schools for all of elementary and high school, and never once did I feel isolated from people of other faiths. Granted, it's a heckuva lot different for someone from a different ethnic group, but I'm willing to bet that not every group is like that. In general, the ones that are are the ones that end up causing problems.
. While what you say may be true in a few instances, it's definitely not always the case. I went to Catholic schools for all of elementary and high school, and never once did I feel isolated from people of other faiths. Granted, it's a heckuva lot different for someone from a different ethnic group, but I'm willing to bet that not every group is like that. In general, the ones that are are the ones that end up causing problems.You know FP, in most cases I would be in perfect agreement with you. But in a strange way the situation over here makes the opposite true.Ford Prefect wrote:
I wish it was possible to force all children into public school systems and outlaw religeous based private schools.
That is because our Islamic emmigrants tend to form ghettos/enclaves.
Which again means that the pupils in the public schools in these enclaves tend to be mainly of non-danish ethnic origin. We just this year had the first incidence of a danish public school where all the pupils are of non-danish origin.
Now my grandson and his family live in an area where there is a high proportion of emmigrants, so his parents decided to put him in a christian based private day-care center. At a recent "grandparents- day" at the centre which i attended I was surprised to see a number of children that obviously were of either Turkish or Pakistani origin.
I had the opportunity of talking to their grandparets who told me that the reason was, that their parents had decided; quite logicaly, that the children had a better chance to become intergrated in the Danish mainstream society, if they attended institutions where they had a chance to interact with Danish children their own age.
While such insight is promising, it is depressing that it isn't obvious to the majority.