DescentBB

I know it's old, but what the hay, I haven't seen it before.

The official God FAQ: http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html

dbl pst++

No.......

LOL. Their answer to the question makes me wonder who exactly they think is qualified to run an 'offical' God FAQ.

I'm trying to imagine this...

"Hello, my name is Joe Smith, I do customer support and maintain this FAQ for Multiversal Cosmetics, the manufacturers of this unverse. One of the most frequent questions we get from our customers in this universe is "Does God exist?" I can officially tell you that since this is a NATURALIST model universe, it does not come equipped with a God. You might want to consider upgrading to the DEIST or even THEIST models in your future universe purchases if the intended application requires a God."

This is more of a cafe joke, but if it creates an E&C discussion so be it.

Iceman wrote:

x2

i don't think it's within any man's ability to say whether there's a God or not.

I would believe the son of god, but, seeing as how his works have been in the hands of mankind for 2000 years, i don't know if I can believe those anymore, either.

kudos to those that can.

Vertigo 99 wrote:i don't think it's within any man's ability to say whether there's a God or not

I completely disagree. My faith is the evidence of things I have seen ...

______________________________________________________
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today Is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." - DCTalk

Iceman wrote:who acknowledge Jesus with their lips Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.

Ohhh, THATS what theyre saying. Makes a lot more sense now.

I think there may have been a creator, but he said 'here's a brain and free will. use them wisely'. then he took off.

Ferno wrote:I think there may have been a creator, but he said 'here's a brain and free will. use them wisely'. then he took off.

That is actually a theology Ferno, I just forget what it's called.


I've recently read a couple interesting articles on "Intellegent Design" and some recent descoveries in microbiology ...which I'll have to get into later.

Agnostic, but there are two things I know exist: ghosts, and the "watchers".

I kinda agree with the doubtful crowd. The lack of evidence does not dictate non-existence of a subject. A scientists would agree.

"'here's a brain and free will. use them wisely'. then he took off."

Brains have been around for a long time. I think it's been proven that the ability to process language has brought the human advantage over other animals.

Thanks Brian... u da man.

One thing I cannot understand is the people who believe in evolution. Evolution (and I'm talkin' macro-evolution, NOT micro-evolution, for those of you who are thinking about bashing me for not believing a scientific fact) is the most ludicrous theory I've seen in a very long time. If you want evidence, just PM me. I don't want to start having to formulate 9999999999 page long posts just to say that evolution is a giant heap of fly poo. For now I'll simply provide a link to a *VERY SHORT* article I wrote on the subject.

http://www.stryker2.com/microbiology_report.doc

Heh...

You can't understand "scientists" then

There is a school (theology) of thought that believes when Michael cast down the devil, it was not the devil but god...hence all the misery and evil evident in the world today.

Deism - the belief that there is a God, but he's left us.


I'm a deist as well, Ferno.

Iceman wrote:

Vertigo 99 wrote:i don't think it's within any man's ability to say whether there's a God or not

I completely disagree. My faith is the evidence of things I have seen ...

Vertigo 99 wrote:kudos to those that can.

If there's no God simply because we can't see him, then why do we accept that there are molecules and sub-atomic particles?
No one has seen one, no one CAN see Sub atomic particles because photons are bigger, and even Electron microscopes can't get through the electron cloud to get an image.
The only way we can tell either of these, God or Sub atomic particles are there is by the effects they have.
Side (a)
Prayer does work, among cancer patients, who had no clue this was going on, there was a greater chance of surviving if a group of people were praying for them.(I think it was an equal mix of most churches, to get the greatest effect) It was 30% if memory serves.
Sub-atomic particles do exist(obviously) or else fusion and fission would be non-events.

Heartless out

"Can you see it? I can't see it ... I can see the effects of the wind but I can't see the wind. Its a mystery to me." - Billy Graham

Darkside Heartless wrote:If there's no God simply because we can't see him

This is where things start going wrong. Now, if you take see to mean it literally, then yes you have a flawed argument. But if you take it to mean the more figurative sense, then there's nothing wrong with it. I don't see any diety or any result of any diety, so therefore I have no reason to think that said diety exists.

Although, my real answer to the question at hand is that "it doesn't matter".

If anyone ask's me what the world would be like without a God, I would say "pretty much like it is now". There is nothing here to tell me otherwise.
And, that "Free Will" baloney is a religious answer for everything.

if you believe in god that's cool.

just don't kill a bunch of people who don't agree with your version of the subject. i realize you have a really bad track record in this regard. but maybe you can change.

Every Abrahamic religion has its own phase of slaughter... the Jews had the Exodus (in which they murdered thousands who were residing in the "promised land"), the Christians had Christendom, and the Islamists have jihad.

The only trouble is, Judaism and Christianity have long since moved past such practices, but the Muslim world is still struggling with them today.

Darkside Heartless wrote:If there's no God simply because we can't see him, then why do we accept that there are molecules and sub-atomic particles?
No one has seen one, no one CAN see Sub atomic particles because photons are bigger, and even Electron microscopes can't get through the electron cloud to get an image.
The only way we can tell either of these, God or Sub atomic particles are there is by the effects they have.
Side (a)
Prayer does work, among cancer patients, who had no clue this was going on, there was a greater chance of surviving if a group of people were praying for them.(I think it was an equal mix of most churches, to get the greatest effect) It was 30% if memory serves.
Sub-atomic particles do exist(obviously) or else fusion and fission would be non-events.

Heartless out

I have no problem with believing things I can
t see.

However, the main problem I come accross is that I don't see any evidence that there is a God (although I do believe he exists), and that if there was a God, why any specific religion right now has it "right."

DCrazy wrote:Every Abrahamic religion has its own phase of slaughter... the Jews had the Exodus (in which they murdered thousands who were residing in the "promised land"), the Christians had Christendom, and the Islamists have jihad.

...the Natzi's had the haulocaust...


"Christendom" is a bit general. What are you thinking of specifically?

btw.. the Hebrews (not jews ..there is cronological difference.) were under direction from God. Rather directly i might add. Unless 2 million people hallusinated at the same time. ...yes. Approxamatly two million crossed the Jordan River.

Where do the Nazis and the Holocaust come into play with Abrahamic religion?

By "Christendom" I primarily refer to the Inquisition, the Crusades, but also to the domination of Christianity in politics throughout Europe.

In a debate about the existence of God you can not cite God's existence as proof that God exists.

I assume that you are actually referring to the Red Sea, which is probably really *not* the body of water they crossed. Even so, what documentation can you cite other than Exodus? There is a scientific explanation as to how the Red Sea could have parted.

bet51987 wrote:And, that "Free Will" baloney is a religious answer for everything.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say Bet, but "free will" is a pretty widely accepted concept.

Top Gun wrote:The only trouble is, Judaism and Christianity have long since moved past such practices

LOL!

This thread got hijacked in a bad way, but then again, it was asking for it.

A better question than "is there a god?", IMO, is "can we determine if there's a god?", and secondly, "what do we do if the answer's no?" (and thirdly and most usefully, "what makes people decide one way or another").

My own personal theory: human psychology runs deeper than humans can deal with. We're wired biologically to want mommy and daddy REAL BAD because it's what keeps us alive. Take an ape, give him/her the mental capacity to form abstract thoughts, and the concept of god condenses fairly naturally from that.

One frequent thing I keep coming across that backs up this idea is the fact that people are so unwilling to look inward to find their source of motivations. So much easier to externalize things. And yet, the power of the unconscious mind is remarkable. Take dreams, for example. Take the habit of commuting to work, choosing lanes, shifting gears, scoffing at other drivers, wondering when the construction's going to be done - all complex, dynamic, and unconscious.

So when someone says "my faith proves it to me", I have to take that with a large grain of salt. You have a personal stake in believing what you believe. It does something for you. People also had faith that the world was flat, and that dragons swallowed those who ventured past the end of it. And people don't change.

---------------

On a separate topic, check out the Nova series called "Dogs and More Dogs", or something like that. There's a startling revelation about how quickly evolution can be sped up under the right circumstances (i.e. all these species of dog evolving in 10,000 years).

Microevolution is amazing. On the other hand, all dogs are still dogs. I don't see any catdogs out there, do you? or horsedogs? or fishdogs?

snoopy wrote:

bet51987 wrote:And, that "Free Will" baloney is a religious answer for everything.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say Bet, but "free will" is a pretty widely accepted concept.

Im just saying that the term "free will" is used by all religions to explain away the things they can't explain.
Like why did God take away my Mother...or why does God allow a little girl to get stolen, dragged into the woods, raped, tortured, and murdered.
Free will answers all those questions, so the priests don't have to explain why, but I already know why.....
And, if someone proves to me that God exists and lets all this happen, then I hate him...or it.
I hate this subject, and sorry to offend anyone but I feel better saying this finally. (If my Dad found out I wrote this..he'd chain me to death..Not kidding.
Bettina

(If my Dad found out I wrote this..he'd chain me to death..Not kidding.

That's just wrong. :\

Skyalmian wrote:

(If my Dad found out I wrote this..he'd chain me to death..Not kidding.

That's just wrong. :\

same here

I believe there is much more to the universe than what we see with our own eyes. You do not. Its not a crutch, its a ladder. I do enjoy the realities of the world, just have a different explanation for what I see. You look around you and what do you see? You see a beautiful random event in science. I see the amazing creation of God. Its breathtaking either way. You belief in the random event is no more a crutch than my belief in creation.

So, what do you say about the internal desire in all cultures to woship a diety? You think it was just coincidence that different cultures from all over the world made up religion simultaniously for control? To me that seems more far fetched than any arguument thus far. I believe we have that desire because we were created that way.

If Im wrong, then I still lived a complete and happy life, and when I die nothing will happen. Same will happen for you. I will have tried to live a right and moral life because I think its right and it is what I thought my God was asking of me. But what if Im right? What if all the things you pass as judgement or concience is really God trying to guide you or show himself, but you were too prideful to notice? I cannot imagine looking into the eyes of my own child and thinking, "wow, what a neat occurance in science! I performed a task and achieved the desired result!". How can you not see the miracle and occurance that is much bigger than the sum of you and your spouse? Its undescribable, but rather than acknowledge the experience of something bigger than a scientific occurance, you just chalk it up to emotion, hormones, instinct, etc.

Ultimately, it comes down to things in life that we cannot explain. You dont know why some things are the way they are, and neither do I. I place my faith in God which I cant prove or disprove, and you place your faith in scientific theories which you cannot prove or disprove. Does this mean we are both on a crutch because we cannot handle the unknowable?

B-

Fusion pimp wrote:Ultimately, it comes down to things in life that we cannot explain. You dont know why some things are the way they are, and neither do I. I place my faith in God which I cant prove or disprove, and you place your faith in scientific theories which you cannot prove or disprove. Does this mean we are both on a crutch because we cannot handle the unknowable?

Yep, it really burns down to interpretation of the evidence around us. One could take it to mean an infinite number of things, some more corret than others. If you wash it down too much, you will never discount any options. (some quite obviously wrong) If you don't wash it down enough, you will end up thinking that every one in the world besides yourself is completely wrong about everything. The world seems to go through a cycle- people seem to go from being too concrete and close-minded about things, to being too abstract and inconclusive about things and back. I'd venture to say that we are on the abstract end of things right now- the tendancy is to say that no one really knows or will ever know what the "right" answer to "is there a God?" (or any other philosophical question) (I think that alot of things in this world are very cyclical in nature)

(Bet: just a thought: sometimes "why" doesn't have an answer)

Okay, a more serious response...

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a God. No doubt that it is the God of the Bible, the father of (and same as) Jesus Christ. Who else am I hearing when I pray--myself? Not likely! Who else heals me, who else teaches me, who else continues to inspire and purify me--myself? I don't think so. That's an explanation that only works for those who have "wishful thinking" in a god who's out there somewhere, not daily faith in a very present God.

I've heard naturalistic explanations of the universe, I've seen rationalistic reconstructions of the Bible, and for all I can acknowledge their logical self-consistency, they just don't match up with the fire of the objects. The deep beauty of the world is a fact I cannot get away from; the firey inspiration of the Bible is forever in my face.

Can I know there is a God? No, not surely--not any more surely than I can know you people who type blue words on the screen are other people, than I can know my husband loves me, than I can know anything is real. Perhaps less surely than some of those things--a lot less surely if you insist on objective evidence. Just the same, he lurks around every corner. I have spent a few days of my life as an atheist, but never for long--I cannot escape from God.

Did man evolve? I have been a skeptic about that, but I could well believe it; I study it, and have been humbled a few times, so I don't claim to know. The world suffers? I know, and it always has--bitter as it may be, it will be sweeter for it in the end. The world can be explained through natural laws? Perhaps someday it may, if it can't right now. It hardly matters--natural laws (with the exception of logically necessary ones) are never a satisfactory ultimate explanation; they are always pregnant with a 'why?'.

I have occasionally argued the existence of God, but I don't claim to be able to prove it. I can try to give evidence, but how much 'counts' for you depends very much on your philosophical presumptions. For me, though, the question is academic: it isn't on such arguments that my faith rests, but on the person of Jesus Christ and the presence of God. I cannot sanely conceive of the world without him.

I am a rationalist and a humanist. There is no doubt in my mind there is no such thing as a higher entity or being we could refer to as God.

Everyone sees the world though his own eyes, and our human nature yields in an inevitable bias. While I acknowledge for others the need to believe in God, I think (1) that need is purely human and (2) it can be filled with something else as well.
(1) implies the concept of God will dissapear with humanity. (2) implies some people do not need an external structure to lead and guide their lives.

Personally, I'm not sure if there is a God. What we see as God (in the creation sense) may only be our interpretation of the natural order of the universe, and God's intervention our were way of rationalizing the world.