DescentBB

I'm not interested in starting a debate, matter of fact, I'd prefer that Christians refrain from responding. I just want to hear from the non-believers: What is it that you have against Christianity/Christians? I'd appreciate you being as specific as possible.

Thanks,

B-

At this point in my life I am pretty much walking the fence. Some days I would tell people I am catholic, other days I don't even think there is a god.

I think the hate completely stems from jealousy. Hear me out....

Everything is/was easier when I use to consider myself Catholic. Everything had an answer. Not in the sense of, â??why my dog diedâ?

I donâ??t think people choose to not be religious, I think some people are just not able to accept religion.

So that is where the anger comes in, they think religious people are taking the easy way out. Not really having to confront lifeâ??s toughest questions head on. Not really having to ever accept a terminal death: of yourself or a loved one. Not ever really having to accept that things may indeed not get better. So it seems unfair that you have to tackle all of this, and someone else doesnâ??t.

Great stuff, Goob.. thanks for that.

I noticed 21 people have viewed the thread, but only Goob responded. This thread isn't designed to convert anyone or spark a debate. It is simply something I've been curious about for awhile, but never asked due to fear of it turning into a disaster. heh.

B-

Fusion Pimp wrote:Why the anger and hatred toward Christianity/Christians?

You seem to allow for only two cases:
1) Christians.
2) Those who hate them.

What if somebody is neither of these?


- Sirian

I am non-christian, raised in a church going family, did my years in Sunday School but by the age of sixteen it was clear to me that I had never actually believed in the existence of god.
Anger? Hatred? Not from me anyway. I certainly lack patience with the hypocrites that seem to populate the fringes of most religions but I recognize the good people too. Religions have done enormous harm in the history of man but also seem to fill a basic need in the majority of the population and amid the harm have been responsible for much good.
I don't hate religion at all, I just don't have much use for it in my life, find it illogical and dislike it being used as an excuse for not thinking independently.
There are many people in the religious community I certainly don't like, Pat Robinson and Ossama Bin Laudin for example and orgainzations such as Focus on the Family and Islamic Jehad that the world would be better without.


Funny, I can't think of a single Buddhist I don't like. Mind you I haven't met them all.

I revised the question, Sirian. It's not much better, but it doesn't sound as caustic now. Still pretty limiting, though. Feel free to add in a second, third or nth option as you see fit.

B-

Richard Gere is a buddhist...

A large number of willing people + very vocal leaders that I don't agree with = recipe for disaster.

I don't care what faith people have, but I do care when people are trying to tell me I can't do something because they believe it to be wrong for whatever reason I can't agree with.

When my family moved down here to Arizona 18 years ago we went to church pretty regularly at the beginning. I was 6 at the time and sunday school bored the pants off me. Eventually my Mom settled into a job that required a lot of hours and my Dad as well. When the weekends came around we all wanted to spend time with eachother doing other things rather then going to Church on Sundays.

By the time I was a teenager we hadn't gone to church for roughly 6 years. It was in my teens that I made the decision that I didn't need a God to do good in life or to be a better person. Our family was close, we were and are good people. It was easy for me to feel that religion really wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

Then as I got older and went through school things started to change. Whenever I was asked what my religion was by kids at school and I told them I didn't have one the insults started. "You're going to hell you know" "You must worship satan, or are an athiest, you're going to hell". At the time I just settled for the athiest route and went on with my life. These mostly came by christian or catholic kids, none of which were close friends of course.

When the same thing started happening to my sister in middle school it started to unsettle me a bit. When you have various religions coming to your door trying to sell their religion by telling me that THEY know where I'll go when I die and would I like to hear the word of God etc...then you start getting a tad angry. As you look around history and see how badly people within religions have bastardized their own teachings to further their own purposes and to control people into doing their will it becomes painfully obvious to me anyways that it might be better off without them.

I'm a very straight forward guy. Common sense tells me that this is it and we have to make everything of it while we're here. I know all religious people aren't crazy, but sometimes it seems like it. It has always intrigued me how very, VERY, intelligent people can still believe in something that sounds so impossible. The truth of the matter is everyone needs something to keep them going in life. As long as it it doesn't include killing people who don't believe in your faith then it doesn't bother me one bit.

I do have faith though. Faith in my family, in myself and some, granted very little, but some faith left in the rest of humanity to do the right things here on earth. I feel if people had more appreciation for the fact that this is it, this is the last stop and there is nothing afterwards, the world might be a better place because some of us might make better use of what time we have here.

These days I'm more inclined to be agnostic then an athiest. To me if there is a God, he'll respect my choices because he did create me and gave me that ability. If there is something beyond this life then I'll let him sort it out when I get there. Until then I'll do what I want. Lead a true and peaceful life and try my damnedest to respect the people and their opinions along the way.

Gooberman and Tyranny spoke for me also.

I was born Catholic but at age 15 I decided I didn't need religion in my life. The ten commandments are a good tool to follow for doing good but I don't see why I should spend a good portion of my life praying ro thanking someone I've never seen or will ever see in my lifetime.

I had a friend who was a "born again" and it drove me nuts. He was always saying he would pray for me etc and it got to the point that I told him to stop. Well, he didn't and I told him where to go. He was trying to convert me and THAT, I hate.

Why is it that religious people thnk they need to suffocate you with their way of life? No idea.

Anyways, like I said at top of my post, Goob and Tyr said what I wanted to say.

To me, religion is an external structure that helps people to live their lives. It may be important, even neccessary to some, but definitely not to me. I have a very established opinion about religion; I know what I'm talking about. Just like believing is a condition for sanity to some, not believing is a condition for sanity to me. I have expressed some of my views on the forum already -- for instance, being religious is a personal thing -- but the person here who knows most about my personal views on this matter is no doubt Drak

i wouldn't use the word hate. but christianity, like many other religions, is an exclusivity club. you are either "in" or you are "lost". like some poor orphan without a home... it's kind of insulting.

one of the things i find most attractive about buddhism is that you are invited, even encouraged to question everything about everything that is presented. you have to seek it.

if that makes any sense...

christianity i don't really have a problem with. but i often find christians to be not as open-minded as those of other faiths (even judgemental).
i don't see this as a problem with the religion, i see it as a widespread misteaching.
[spoiler](disclamer, i am christian (sorry fusion pimp). but i often feel distanced from other christians in this regard)[/spoiler]

some people may be using their christianity is an *excuse* to act out these domineering traits. excusing themselves from blame because they consider themselves the most enlightened. an assumption i find insulting.

cops put it well.

This is good stuff and I appreciate the responses. I'm really relieved that it hasn't turned nasty.

It's only been in the last few years, since I got on the internest that I've realized how many non-Christians there are. I had always assumed the majority of people are believers and/or adhere to some type of religious faith. In the years that I've been on the net I've seen some pretty nasty things toward Christianity, mostly non-provoked gross generalizations(I'm sure it goes the other way as well, but that's not my topic). It occured to me that a lot of people have pent up anger toward Christianity and I never quite understood it. Jealousy? Exclusion? fear? Confusion? Whatever the reason, people do not like Christianity. I couldn't quite figure it out...So I decided to turn the tables and started wondering if Christians(attitude, delivery, etc) were to blame. If Christianity forces people away rather than embracing them.
So here we are, but don't let it end here. I'd love to hear more.

Thanks,

B-

Fusion pimp wrote:So I decided to turn the tables and started wondering if Christians(attitude, delivery, etc) were to blame.

Typical Christian masochism.



I'm sure it's like most things in life. If you don't like the vocal minority in a group that you don't relate to, you grow to dislike the group in general. Be that group liberals, arabs, union workers...

Edit: As far as Christianity being embracing, only suggestion I can give is lead by example, not by preaching. Preaching turns peple away.

FusionPimp
I have nothing against Christians of present. Most in my school are Christians, my closest friend is a Christian and she thinks I'm one too. In the year and a half that I've known her, we talk about school, boys, teachers, boys, movies, and boys again, but never about religion. She wears a two inch cross and so do I as our normal wear but I view mine as an emblem.

Our school is thinking of banning these crosses and actually are asking students for input. When they do, I will fight it alongside Christians but for a different reason than hers. (I wonder if I'm becoming a Budhist)

Now, why do I dislike Christianity so much? Because it's a judgemental religion that like other religions have no facts to back up what is said or written. Something else too.....A few days ago I entered a level and there was a player named "heaven", after I said my usual "Hi cuties", he typed the following: "Do you believe in abortion?" I returned with "It depends if I've been raped" He then said "then have the child". I was getting annoyed now, so I asked him "Suppose my life is in danger if I go thru with it" and he replied "Is your life more important than his/hers".

I cut off the converstation and went gunning for just him. Geez....in a game now?
Bettina

Remarkable. I can certainly testify how often on the internet (or even in person) I'll mention that I'm a Christian--and people will respond with "OMG YOU ARE SO STUPED!!!! I HATE YOU! I HATE YOU!!!" Or something. Really frequently, people don't realize how insulting they're being--often enough, people will honestly ask, "How can someone as smart as you believe something as stupid as that?" Ah well. But it is a curious phenomenon. People do seem to have a lot of bitterness built up sometimes. In my experience, serious atheists are the worst of the bunch.

I've always wondered what the reason was. Spiritually speaking, I can put it down to Jesus' comment that the world will always hate Christians--that we who follow him should not expect to be treated any less harshly than he was. The darkness hates the light, and all that sort of thing.

Secularly speaking, there seem to be a lot of people who believe that religious superstition keeps us in the dark ages as a culture. Or that religion is responsible for the vast majority of the evil in history. Or that religion has had an evil influence on their personal lives, and messed them up. And I guess I can see why they might be bitter, if that's what they think.

But I've suspected for a while that it isn't the aforementioned spiritual phenomenon--there is certainly some of that, but by and large the church simply isn't more righteous than the culture around it, so that principle shouldn't come into play. I'm not even sure it's mostly the worldview of the people it's coming from, though there certainly is some of that. My best guess these days is that it's the failures of the church itself. If we'd just be the morally mature, spiritually serious, loving, tolerant, thoughtful people we're supposed to... most of the bitterness would disappear. At least, that's been my going theory--seems to have worked out pretty well, personally.

But I've always wondered... and it's good to read what people say.

Good thread.

I don't have anything against Christians/Christianity. At least, nothing more than any other group of people that my beliefs/non-beliefs clash with. So I guess the only thing I have against Christians is that they aren't exactly like me. And I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

To those who expressed distaste at being preached to, I'm in complete agreement with you. That type of behavior doesn't win converts; instead, it makes enemies. I mean, I myself am a Christian, and I look at some of the more radical evangelical movements and start laughing. (Ever see that one guy who always talks about the end of the world on TV at 3AM? ) I can easily see how that could come as a turnoff toward any religion, Christianity in particular. It also doesn't seem to mesh with some of Christ's teachings, particularly leading by example. In an ideal world, all Christians would try to spread their faith by living good and moral lives, not by trying to force it on other people or claiming that "if you don't convert, you're going to hell." That last statement is just wrong, both theologically and morally. For me personally, the only way I feel comfortable spreading information about my faith is if someone else is curious and has a genuine interest in it, or in the case of correcting someone who is making erroneous statements about it. That's the way it should be, at least to me; as far away from street-corner "hustlers" as possible.

to clarify i wasn't trying to imply that i dislike christians, i'd loose some of my closest friends if i felt that way. i don't blame the religion itself so much as some of the overzealous recruiters promoting it. i think the bible is a beautiful moral guide.

i do have hope that the human race will eventually learn to respect each other in this most personal arena.

and thank you guys for the free days off from work.

I don't believe in a supreme being the way christians do. I don't have anything against religious people -- as long they leave me alone and won't try to win me over or do stupid things that affect me. What I don't like about most religions is the "my way or the highway" mentality and the way changes in society and science are blanked out of their world view. Now combine that w/ lobbyism and I get pissed.

Just the tossing of rational thought in favor of the archaic thoughts of people who believed that the sun orbited the earth, the earth was flat, and The Flood actually encompassed the earth. (Remember folks, 'the earth' back then was only a few hundred square miles of land, a river, and some water to the north.)

"and thank you guys for the free days off from work."

Hahahahaha.

Wonderful post Drakona. It is people like you that need to be more vocal within your religion. Some of the teachings are good, but a lot seem to lag behind the rest of the world that is moving forward. That is how I see it.

One of the events in my life that was a factor in strengthening my beliefs was a conversation I had with my Mom about this time period in history. We got to talking about world events and then she became a little distant. I knew why immediately for some reason and asked her point blank if she thought that these were the end times. All these years she has remained religious even though she hasn't attended church for what now is most of my lifetime. She told me that yes, she believed that these were the end times because everything 'seems' so bad these days.

This kind of thinking does not add up for me. Most people fail to realize that this is the greatest time in human history. It just so happens that we have the nastiest weapons mankind has ever seen as well. You look through history though and the world was full of chaos. There have been darker times then that in which we live today. There is no mistaking that for me. There isn't anytime in history that I'd rather live in then right here and now.

Things have to boil to a head before they can get better. There are always going to be huge conflicts and wide world events that shape the landscape of human history. Will we make the right decisions? Only time will tell. We're still here though and thats the important part. We have the opportunities to make the right decisions.

The whole Y2K fiasco was another thing that hardened my stance. It astounded me how many people were running around buying goods like chickens with their heads cut off. Like if it really was the end of the world they'd actually survive it.

I knew it wouldn't be the end. The days roll on and each day is what you make of it. Judgement day has always been an issue in christian beliefs that has alienated me. We shape our own destiny. We as a species will decide if judgement day comes.

To me what christians believe to be the end of the world sounds absolutely horrible. My Mom told me stories when I was little about how when the world ends those of use who are good and innocent will recieve perfect bodies and have no memory of our struggles and pains endured on earth. Sure, if you are a true believer you will enter the kingdom of heaven and all will be forgiven etc...etc...Sounds great, if you believe in fairy tails. This type of stuff used to scare the pants off of me. I don't mean to be insulting here, this is just how it all sounded.

It has definitely been a wedge between me and Christianity. I just don't see it. I would like there to be a heaven and everything. I would like to be able to know that all the people I've known in my life that leave us will all be reunited in the end. It just sounds too good to be true.

Fusion pimp wrote:I'm not interested in starting a debate, matter of fact, I'd prefer that Christians refrain from responding. I just want to hear from the non-believers: What is it that you have against Christianity/Christians? I'd appreciate you being as specific as possible.

Thanks,

B-

What is it that Christians have against reality?

Fusion pimp wrote:I'm not interested in starting a debate, matter of fact, I'd prefer that Christians refrain from responding. I just want to hear from the non-believers: What is it that you have against Christianity/Christians? I'd appreciate you being as specific as possible.

In some circumstances, it's similar to people who resent their parents. There were these trusted figures of authority who ultimately failed them.

Secondly, it's not hard to see how being judged is annoying. You've got people telling you you're a sinner (guilt), and you've got to avoid hell (fear), and you've got to remove yourself from the world (alienation), and it's not hard to pin some bad feelings on the whole subject. I'm not saying that it's necessarily all about fear, guilt, and manipulation, I don't think that's true - but that's how if often comes across.

Religin to most people is a tool they use to manipulate others, they use the bible as a weapon meant to keep you in line with their way interpertation. But salvation on the other hand (not to be confused with religin) is a personal relationship with One we don't see, touch,or hear; but by faith believe He is in charge of us.Most people claim to be christians, I for one don't claim any form of religin.Christian means CHRIST LIKE,I for one don,t see any of that. People use this term for acceptence, personal satifaction ,and to attempt to control others.
Allow me to tell about the charactor of God,He is freedom,we can choose to follow his presepts and recieve our reward.At the same time we can follow our own hearts and live a pleasent life for ourselfs.The trouble is christians can't see anyone wanting that choice. They think it is there job to make you see things there way. they want to take away what God gave each one of us.
I don't attend any church nor do I profess any form of christiany.(possible if been burned by professed Christ like people.)

Cops,
you're welcome! haha

Keep 'em coming, I'm listening.

forrest i think "christian" means: one who believes that the christ exists/existed on earth (for approx 30 or so years after 0 BCE).
it doesn't directly mean "christ-like". christians do attempt to follow the christ's teachings/example, but the term "christian" moreso means "hey i'm trying", rather than "i AM christlike".

Fusion Pimp wrote:I revised the question, Sirian. It's not much better, but it doesn't sound as caustic now.

Fair enough. Clarity of intent will suffice. I will try to answer.

In my experience, there are two types of Christians. I think of them as "Matthew" Christians and "Mark" Christians. There is a verse in the gospel according to St. Matthew where Jesus is quoted as saying that those who are not with us are against us. In the gospel according to St. Mark, there is a nearly opposite quote, where Jesus is quoted as saying that those who are not against us are with us.

This disconnect both embodies and symbolizes my view of the religion as a whole, and of the people as a whole who practice its faith. Christianity has both members and active enemies, yet there is a vast sea of folks who are neither. Some Christians give them benefit of the doubt, some do not. Some say that those who are not against us are with us. Some say that those who are not with us are against us.

Christianity actively teaches that it and it alone holds a lock on truth, on salvation, on goodness, on valid spirituality. This creates a disconnect between the "saved" and the "unsaved". It is a very easy leap from there to some very bad logic, thus history is replete with criminals who wrought unspeakable evils in the name of this religion.


I find it telling that principles of human equality, as practiced by the founding fathers of the United States, have led to a vast improvement in knowledge, in standard of living, in brotherly love one citizen to the next, with an end to slavery, an end to women as property, and a lessening of evils across the board, in a mere two centuries, while Christianity without these principles oversaw, more or less, a solid seventeen hundred years of unending barbarism from one end of Christendom to the other.

Christ may have had it right, but something got lost in translation. Unfortunately, there can be no dialogue with Christians, in the end, because their entire frame of reference is contained within their scriptures. They don't speak any other language, and they cannot abide disagreement with their beliefs.

I have been able to get along with Christians just fine, chiefly by not focusing on my differences with them. By not trying to persuade them of anything, I pose no threat to their beliefs. Those who get too militant about trying to persuade me will find themselves moved out of my space one way or another, but I can tolerably agree to disagree with all the rest, even when I do so by holding my tongue.

I often hold more values and beliefs in common with Christians than with secularists. It's just that this is more by coincidence than by design. Many who are not religious are more open minded. Christians here may or may not like to hear that, but that has been my experience, and I have had a very wide exposure in terms of numbers of religions, belief systems, and points of view. So whatever degree of shared values I have with Christians, it remains static. There is little or no chance for connection, for them to learn more about me. Frankly, I trust them less, because by definition, if my beliefs differ from theirs, then I am wrong and mistaken and unrepentant, etc etc. With secularists, I may start farther away, but with SOME of them, there is a bona fide chance of forging a stronger bond of understanding.

That kind of bond can exist only with peers, and most Christians see only other Christians as their peers.

The "Mark" Christians, I can call friend, because they can call me friend so long as I am not against them. The "Matthew" Christians define me as enemy, because I am not with them. There is nothing I can do to remedy that, so I give them as wide a berth as I can manage, and when they insist, I am willing to give them a fight. Many get more than they bargained for. If I see them coming, though, and I can hold my tongue to avoid conflict, I usually do.


- Sirian

The problem I have with christianity is all the varied iderations. Protestants,Baptists,Luterans,Catholics...well you get the picture. I get kinda tired when I hear each one claim they are "The One True Faith" and a little confused. If I were to join one does that mean I am not of the "True" faith by the others. So instead of making a bad choice I refrain from becoming any of them.
I was raised Catholic but ultimately got tired of the priests sermons exhorting the parisheners to give more money to pay for the new addition to the church.

Oh and Cops, it is refreshing when you post in a lucid moment

Interesting and well written post Sirian. I enjoyed reading it and it puts some of my own feelings in words much better that I could.

What I find most offensive is that people equate Christian fundamentalists with Islamic fundamentalists. Yes, there are arrogant and preachy hypocritical figures on the 'Christian Right', but they don't go around blowing people up, taking hostages or 'honor killing' women. 'Christian terrorists' that bomb abortion clinics are openly denounced by all corners of the church(es) and by Christian denominations. The Christian faith has become a kind of punching bag for the secular left when there are many more 'horrible' religious movements out there. I suppose it's because if you pee on a church, you won't get you and your entire family murdered the next day.

I wish the left took a more balanced and critical look at all religion in general IF they're going to be critical at all. Sure...call Pat Robertson a Nazi...but are you as brave as Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh to bash islam as he illustrated by his film exposing the treatment of women under islam?

What make Christian values any more illegitimate than the next religion?

I say leave Christians alone for once and go after the real rabid dog on the block.

- an atheist

Yeah, that was a good post , Sirian.

I didn't put this post up with the intention of defending Christianity against those who are not Christians. Don't think because I'm not posting that I'm also not reading. I'm still listening...
Anyone else?

B-

Also, I appreciate those who have contributed- I also appreciate those who haven't.

Drakona wrote:If we'd just be the morally mature, spiritually serious, loving, tolerant, thoughtful people we're supposed to... most of the bitterness would disappear. At least, that's been my going theory--seems to have worked out pretty well, personally.

One of my favorite all time quotes, was when Ghandi said to Mother Theresa:

"If all Christians were like you, I too would be Christian."

Ghandi was a man who understand what it was really all about.

Both of those individuals believed in making the world a better place for PEOPLE. It wasn't so much about their religious beliefs as it was about helping other people. Those are lessons a lot could learn from regardless of their personal religious beliefs.

Thats why I say that the religions aren't so much at fault for the harm that has been done in said religions name as some of the people inside of them are.

Nail on the head Sirian. Outstanding post.

Some other observations of Christianity:

They really don't want to share the world with anyone else. Since they have the "One true Religion" anyone who believes anything else is nothing but a savage in their eyes.

Many of them feel that everything has been put here by god for them to use, and when it runs out, he will provide more.

I also think many of them don't grasp the meaning of the stories in the bible. Too many of them concentrate on black and white literal translations of a book that was meant as a guide to life, not a legal document.

I work with a "Matthew" christian. He sends me gobs of email every day about all the great things christians are doing in the world. All the horrors that those "savages" are commiting. How massive conversions of these savages are saving the continent of Africa, and will soon save Europe from itself. The sad thing is that when he sends me this stuff, a simple google search on the matter will usually show it as blatent christian propaganda. Because he is so hardcore, I make it a point to respond to each one he sends with what's actually happening. I also respond to the occasional time he is right with information supporting his claims.


As Sirian said, "Mark" christians are great. I'm not perfect, and I don't believe anyone is. "Matthews" do.

llClutchll wrote:Some other observations of Christianity:

They really don't want to share the world with anyone else. Since they have the "One true Religion" anyone who believes anything else is nothing but a savage in their eyes.

Many of them feel that everything has been put here by god for them to use, and when it runs out, he will provide more.

I also think many of them don't grasp the meaning of the stories in the bible. Too many of them concentrate on black and white literal translations of a book that was meant as a guide to life, not a legal document.

You're definitely over-generalizing here. This may be your experience of Christianity, but there are many Christians, probably even the majority, who do not feel this way. I am one of them.

Honest opinion. I've been very lucky to meet people in their own countries all over the world. I've lived in Ohio, Michigan, Florida, Georgia, California, Illinois, Virginia, and even a year in Japan so far. (Maybe they all live in Iowa, haven't been there yet.)

As of now the "Matthews" outnumber the "Marks" in my experiences. I hope that it changes. It's really giving Mark a bad name!

Fusion pimp wrote:What is it that you have against Christianity/Christians?
...
B-

Unless you count thinking you're wrong in a totally insular, non-hostile fashion, nothing.