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RAM Q

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:30 pm
by Sarge
I having a box built for me (yea, I'm lazy these dayz) and after reading a few Anandtech article, I came up with a list of stuff.

On this list was the OCZ RAM. Here's what my 'builder' came back to me with from one of his suppliers:
Raoul -

I checked with a company that I buy RAM from about the OCZ memory, and I'm
not hearing anything very positive about it as a memory manufacturer. Would
you consider a different manufacturer, such as Kingston, or are you dead
set on OCZ?

Here's what my memory guy had to say:

---------------------------------------
I did check current vendors and no one is stocking the OCZ

Ask about Kingston / the OCZ over clocks chips and uses refurb's & re-marks
and they have to use a heat shield from over clocking and causing the chips
to over heat.

PS OCZ & Corsair always seem to have compatibility issues from timing due to
using OEM type chips.
Is this a line of BS or what? As near as I can tell, OCZ is what's most often used in high perforamce CPUs nowadayz.

What's you guys opions, should I continue to seek OCZ or try to get a different brand. (please name some good RAM manufacturers if the later)

Thanx!
"Sarge"

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:41 pm
by Mobius
I'd get any brand of PC3700.

RAM provides such little benefit for the money, you are far better off to go up a grade in CPU choice, and get Budget PC3700 which will still allow a decent overclock.

Ultra-fast RAM is a giant wank.

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:23 pm
by Sarge
Are you saying OCZ is the BrandX of RAM?

And I'm not really looking to overclock, just get the best bang for the buck.

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:52 pm
by CDN_Merlin
Kingston or Crucial

you skimp on quality you will get burned. If your RAM is cheap, it may cause you crashes in windows or games.

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:39 pm
by JMEaT
I've never been disappointed by Crucial. I use it in all of my systems I have and have built for friends.

Now if I hate you and build you a computer, you get Geil RAM. ;) :D

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:48 pm
by Sarge
Hmm, I thought OCZ was da good stuff...

OK, I'll get sum Crucial, thanx guys!

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:54 pm
by Mobius
Hey Sarge, OCZ is good stuff from what I have heard, and Corsair do some very nice memory too.

Here's the thing about RAM, there are two distinct variables which control potential performance:

1) Rated DDR speed (in MHz or PC rating)

2) Latency ratings, typically expressed like 2-5-5-7

The DDR speed (i.e. DDR400) relates to TWICE the Front Side Bus Speed. So, DDR400 is rated for operation with a 200MHz FSB. DDR500 = 250MHz FSB.

The PC rating is simply 8 times the MHz rating and reflects the number of MB per second which is theoretically available. It's 8 times because it's 8 Bytes per clock transfered across the bus.

So, DDR400 = PC3200 (3.2GB/s bandwidth). With Dual Channel RAM, that increases to 6.4GB/s because each bank of RAM has it's own bus.

Overclockers will typically want RAM rated at significantly faster than there "stock" FSB speed, because raising the FSB is the only way (usually) to overclock a CPU.

See, a 3.2 GHz P4 uses a 200 MHz FSB (Yes, it *says* 800MHz, but that is "quad pumped") with a CPU multiplier of 16 to arrive at 3.2 GHz. (200 x 16 = 3200)

If your system is 200MHz FSB, and you install DDR400 (which is specified) then you may not have much luck overclocking, because you'd be pushing the FSB beyond the rated speed of the RAM.

If you installed DDR500 (PC4000) then you will KNOW that you can push the FSB all the way to 250 and the RAM will still be inside the spec. (Other peripherals, or your CPU might stop you getting that high though.

For example, a 3.2GHz P4 using 250 FSB (1000MHz quad-pumped) will actually run at 250 x 16 = 4000 MHz. It would be unlikely you'd get a 3.2 GHz CPU to 4.0 GHz without extreme cooling though.

So - if you intend overclocking, get a speed rating higher than the rated one. I spec DDR433 (PC3500) and DDR466 (PC3700) on machines which will be overclocked.

Item 2 is the latency - and you pay through the nose for low latency RAM. Low Latency simply means you wait less clocks before data streams from the RAM. Random Accesses into memory are delayed by the latency ratings of the RAM.

Conventional wisdom says the speed increases available with RAM that costs twice the price of budget RAM (at the same DDR rating!) are not worth the expense - unless you have specific requirements for low latency RAM.

So, it's better to buy high DDR ratings, as opposed to Low Latency RAM at the correctly rated DDR speed.

It gets more complicated though, because if you buy budget fast RAM (i.e. cheap DDR466) but only run the RAM at 215 MHz (DDR430 speed) then you MAY be able to switch away from SPD settings for RAM in the BIOS, and then try to lower the latency settings a little.

Conversely, if you buy very low latency DDR400 but push it to DDR433 speeds, it might fail unless you increase the latency settings manually.

================================

Low Latency = more expensive than higher speed.

================================

There is an issue with the Pentium 4 though, Prescott included. WITHOUT Low Latency RAM, the CPU can sit there spinning it's wheels waiting for data from memory. Because of the long CPU pipeline in the P4,a huge number of clocks go wasted - so to keep a busy P4 core happy, you have to not only provide it with huge amounts of data, but deliver it VERY soon after the request for the data. A huge hole in two CPU pipelines is just guaranteed to slow you down a lot.

This is one of the big reasons why AMD at 33% less outright core clocks, can outperform a P4 in many tasks: AMD have a much shorter pipeline, so holes don't hurt you as much, and the on-die memory controller offers far lower latencies with "standard" RAM.

Another reason the P4 is easy to beat in gaming, is because the P4 uses a LOT of clocks to do branch prediction: it predicts what the outcome will be and does a lot of calcs for each possible outcome. When the probability tree collapses to a single option, the P4 has wasted a lot of time if it didn't choose a correct branch to follow. (This is the reason P4 excells at media encoding: branch prediction almost never fails!)

Therefore, the AMD architecture is more forgiving about RAM. Note: the socket 754 AMD64s have half the memory bandwidth (3.2 GB/s = single channel) of the Socket 939 cores, and the P4. Note also: The socket 754 Athlons perform almost up to the level of the Dual Channel architectures!

That was probably more than you wanted to know though ... :P

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:33 am
by Sarge
Mobius wrote:That was probably more than you wanted to know though ... :P
Yup! ;)

Thanx though!

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:43 am
by Capm
I used OCZ ram in a system I built recently - worked great. Given, this is the only time I've ever used the ram, but I wasn't disappointed with its performance.

I've seen Toms Hardware using it a bit lately in their bench tests too.

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:41 am
by Sarge
BTW, here's what I'm going with for this 'box'....

-Socket754 Athlon64 3400+ ('cause I could *never* afford a Socket940)
-MSI K8N Neo
-OCZ PC3400 EL (1 GB) (which has now changed to probably Crucial)
-GeForce 6800GT (prolly a PNY card)
-Creative Audigy2 ZS

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:11 am
by Warlock
i allways use corsair

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:43 pm
by STRESSTEST
Im using a 2x512 Platinum EL rev2 PC3200 kit from OCZ. I love it. 2-2-2-5 and it hauls ass.

I think Anandtech or Toms put it in a 4 or 5 way shoot out recently.

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:28 pm
by Sarge
Yea, my post above should'a said OCZ 3200.

That's why I was going for it because of the article(s) I've read on Anandtech.

Oh well, I'l be happy with whatever I get as I'm not gonna try and overclock (much) ;)

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:48 pm
by woodchip
I think Sarge, your set-up ought to rock.

Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:27 pm
by Matrix
IMO OCZ PC3200 Platinum Rev. 2 is some of the best **** u can get right now
=F-A-S-T= DDR Memory: 2-2-2 Roars on the Scene
I know 512x2 of it is going into the next a64 system I build

Also that and the Crucial Ballistix PC3200 is some crazy ****

Since I've been planning building a new system, the past few months all Iâ??ve been doing it researching ram. From all of the review sites, the tech forums like [H] and overclockers.com these 2 is what everyone is loving and hitting the high FSB on.

What I would look for is
OCZ 3200/3500EB (If u can find it this stuff loves voltage and FSB - But itâ??s no longer made :P)
OCZ PC3200 Platinum Rev. 2 (Sexiness)
Crucial Ballistix PC3200

Edit: BTW
u should get a s939 90nm a64 and wait for a nf4 SLI MB =)
Dual 6800GTs -- teh sexiness
Plus from what Iâ??ve herd the new 90nm A64s are clocking higher and running cooler then the 130nm

My next sys:
A64 3200+ s939 Winchester
Abit/Asus/DFI nf4 SLI MB
OCZ PC3200 Platinum Rev. 2 (512x2)
6800GT PCIe (dual when I get more money =)
Thermalright XP-120 (100+ CFM 120MM fan)

Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:25 pm
by Capm
drop that MSI board and get the Gigabyte board, I've had nothing but problems with msi boards.

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 12:45 am
by STRESSTEST
Capm wrote:drop that MSI board and get the Gigabyte board, I've had nothing but problems with msi boards.
Some MSI are ick, others are the cream that floats to the top. I just built one for my ol' pal Soup. We got the http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDe ... 468&depa=0 and it seriously kicks major booty, Capm

nForce 3 Ultra, 8 channel audio, dual NICs.. Mmmmm it was Tiiiight

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 3:43 am
by Matrix
ya the neo2 is sexy stuff only reason I'm not running one right now is because I decided to wait for nf4 SLI :D

Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:27 am
by Vertigo
Warlock wrote:i allways use corsair

w3rd