DescentBB

A White House spokeswoman earlier called for Ukrainian authorities not to certify the election until the fraud allegations are investigated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4036867.stm

Practice. Preach. Hmmm.

Apples, Oranges?

Does New Zealand even have elections?

Yes but the sheep win every time by sheer numbers.

heh, yeah mobi we thought that ironic too over here .

on another note, Ukraine is a seriously fucked place, i can't imagine elections there being at all fair.
no-one wants to live there, why would anyone want to RULE it?

Mobius, the only people who think there was any more fraud than usual in the 2004 election are Kerry ****-suckers and conspiracy nuts. You trying to tell me you're one of the two?

Idiot or troll. Either way, not worth a response.

Top Gun wrote:...who think there was any more fraud than usual in the 2004 election...

HEH! So you actually admit fraud is rampant in the world's leading "democracy"? o_O

As to a "conspiracy" - check your dictionary and the law. A conspiracy only requires two people. I'm sure there's not a single conspiracy in voter fraud and election fraud in the USA. Not a single one. No - there's probably hundreds of them - and they probably don't know about, or communicate with each other.

Still - these ARE conspiracies. Conspiracies to defraud the USA population of their rightful leaders. It's CERTAINLY true that the USA "Haqs the best democracy money can buy".

As to elections in New Zealand: we actually trust our politicians even LESS than you do, and we force them to complete in General Elections once every 3 years. (Although the Prime Minister is empowered to call a "Snap Election" is she so desires.)

As to voter fraud in NZ? Well, there may be mistakes occasionally, but almost no fraud. We KNOW this beyond a doubt because we vote on paper, and get a vote receipt which can be used to examine the official results to confirm your vote was counted correctly.

Also, because there are less than 2 million voters in NZ, it is dead easy to recount anything that looks suspicious.

These things, plus the fact that NZ hasn't had a close election in about 40 years, means I believe we are more likely to have had fairly elected representation than the USA in the last 2 elections.

I consider your adoption of electronic voting to be unbelievably flawed in just about every aspect of it's MO.

Another factor in our favour, is that NZ is not a huge megapower, nor do we have trillion dollar vested interests to serve. The salary of our politicians is only JUST enough to keep them honest (admittedly, several have been ditched in recent years due to "corruption" - i.e. 1 few thousand dollars not declared - that sort of thing).

Honestly, do you have even a cursory knowledge of what you're talking about? If this thread was intended to shed light on some sort of hypocrisy on the part of the Bush administration/United States, you're going to have to work harder to point it out. If the intent was to provide a forum for an unsolicited dissertation on the wonderous purity of the New Zealand electoral process, well, mission accomplished.

United States

OSCE wrote:The 2 November elections in the United States mostly met the commitments agreed to by the 55 OSCE participating States in the Copenhagen Document of 1990. They were conducted in an environment that reflects a long democratic tradition, including institutions governed by rule of law, free and professional media and civil society involved in all aspects of the election process.

The presidential elections took place in a highly competitive environment. In what was perceived to be a very close race, the leading presidential candidates enjoyed the full benefits of free and vigorous media coverage throughout the campaign. There was exceptional public interest not only in the two main presidential candidates and respective campaign issues but also in the election process itself. Civil society contributed substantially towards greater awareness of election issues and promoting voter participation. However, a number of significant issues were brought to the attention of the EOM as set out below. *see link*

Ukraine

OSCE wrote:On election day, although voting was conducted in a generally calm manner, overall, observersâ?? assessed election day less favourably, particularly in the central and eastern regions, than 31 October. Observers noted a higher incidence of serious violations, including some isolated incidents of violence, and a pattern of intimidation, including directed towards observers, polling commission members and individual voters. Observers reported that in a significant number of polling stations commissions (PSC) members had been dismissed or ejected. Police were present in a majority of polling stations visited. In some instances, unauthorized persons were interfering in or directing the process, or otherwise attempting to influence voters.

Despite the suspiciously high turnout in some regions (for example 96.31% in Donetsk and 88.41% in Lugansk, according to the preliminary CEC turnout figures), overcrowding was reported by IEOM observers as less of a problem in eastern regions than elsewhere. While far fewer voters were turned away from polling stations due to inaccuracies in the voter list during the second round than in the first, once again there was a regional variation, with fewer voters being turned away in the east.

Bush won. His re-election was legitimate. Get over it. To say that there are similarities between the elections in the US and Ukraine is intellectually dishonest at best, colossally stupid at worst.

Pebkac wrote:Bush won. His re-election was legitimate. Get over it. To say that there are similarities between the elections in the US and Ukraine is intellectually dishonest at best, colossally stupid at worst.

HEH

2 ppl in NZ might sway an election but when the seperation is more than the total population of NZ almost twice over. it aint gonna matter, 3.5 million votes would be VERY hard to hide from any kind of election fraud. even tho the Dems did try to make stuff up to imply Voter fraud just incase the election didnt go their way. nice troll post tho

Mobius, did I ever say fraud was "rampant"? No. Thanks for putting words in my mouth again. All of us know that, in every presidential election, neither side is above doing a little dirty dealing to try to get their candidate into office. THe same thing happened this election. But "rampant"? Not by a long shot. For the vast majority of this country, elections are conducted as fairly as is humanly possible. And yes, let's all look to little New Zealand for inspiration. Of course it's inherently easier to keep track of 2 million votes than over 100 million; that's obvious. As for politicians' salaries, ours don't get that much; the president gets paid $400,000, far less than the vast majority of corporate higher-ups, professional athletes, or other sundry celebrities. Congressional salaries and other public jobs are far less; most politicians are wealthy through their own means, not through holding political office. Here's a tip: call us when your country has been around for over 200 years and has over 250 million people living in it, and we'll see how well your political system is going.