Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs.

[Fusion pimp]

I was perusing the NHB forum and stumbled on the "eminem generation..." thread. I remembered reading this article awhile back and thought I'd share it. It's a bit long, but well worth the read.


On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman
By LTC (RET) Dave Grossman

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."
This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

[Couver_]

Wow great post FP!!

I like the highlights on the Cops. People are always saying "F*** the Police" yet if something happens they are the first to call em or whine that they should have been there to protect them. Being a Cop has to be one thankless job yet so many people step up to be that sheepdog. Pretty cool

[Will Robinson]

Excellent! I hope everyone reads that.
"Hope is not a strategy"
So true and yet so many think that's all the thought or effort they need to put into survival.

[Gooberman]

I forget which thread, and who posted, but someone whom I know to be conservative posted something to the degree of, "My dad always told me, you have to be a leader or a follower, which is it?"

And Barry posts, that a good person is ultimately left with two directions: you have to be a sheep or a sheepdog. I think these view points are the very core of many disputes that form between "conservatives" and "liberals." Reguarding the war on terror, or gun control.

I don't see the world as sheep and sheepdogs, leaders and followers, good and evil. I only see people who make daily decisions.

Outside of judo classes, I have never been in a full out fight in my entire life. But like anyone I've had limited confrontations: one time my ex-girlfriend, who is black, and I went to a park near where we live and were just sitting there. Two kids whom I would say were about 16ish were at a table behind us, (I think I was 19-20 at the time), and one started quietly singing, "he's got jungle fever, he's got jungle fever...". I ignored it at first but then they got louder, and I turned back and said, "all right kid, shut the ★■◆● up, your not funny." It went to the "why don't you make me" phase. I have quite a bit of size on him, it got to the point where he pushed me, and I hit him as hard as I could on his shoulder. My adrenaline was going, I was expecting to go at it, but instead he just said, "alright dude Jesus, I was just ★■◆●ing around." The situation died off from there.

Now, fortunately, thatâ??s probably the most violent, real, situation I have been involved in my life. But I don't see any sheep or sheepdogs or wolves. Barry you've met me, and I think its a given to say that my personality is a sheep according to the above article. And I doubt the other kid was a wolf, he was just trying to show off to his buddy. I think most violent situations, even the ones vastly more serious then the above, can be brought back down to some degree to this level.

My state is currently trying to pass a law to allow for concealed weapons in bars. Someone gets drunk, starts a fight, shoots someone else, is he a wolf? Is the other guy a sheep for not having a gun in a bar where he knows his judgement is going to be impared?

I would rather not classify myself as a leader, or a follower, or a sheep, or a sheepdog, or a wolf. I'm just an individual in a sea of people capable of making decisions; I am able to make good ones and bad ones. You see on the news quite often that the terrorists "hate freedom," they don't. They are not wolves by nature; they are people whom have spent their lives being fed a certain ideology that leads them to making the decisions that they do. I don't doubt that there are a handful of monsters among them, but it isn't the majority.

Wolf, sheep, sheepdog ignores all of the circumstances. If I were drafted I would go, am I a sheepdog? I donâ??t choose to volunteer, does that make me a sheep? If drafted, I wouldnâ??t try and get to know the circumstances of those shooting at me; Iâ??d drop them as fast as I could, sheepdog? If I saw a large man picking on a smaller one, I would step in and end the situation, am I a sheepdog? I don't carry a gun, does that make me a sheep?



I'm really not either. I am capable of living a life that most resembles a sheep, making decisions that more resembles that of a sheepdog, or if I spent my entire life in Iraq being forced every day to memorize the Koran and hate western civilization....who knows? I am sure most of the people we kill in Iraq are good people lead astray.

Now the article allready advocated the existence of this continuum, but such a continuum would have to be so broad that the labels really no longer exist. I choose to place myself anywhere on that continuum, I don't exist anywhere on it; and if you don't have a permanent spot on this continuuum, then ever using it really just oversimplifies the situation. I guess to sumerize this rambling of a post: I think such labels, and the mindset of the existance of those labels, make it too easy to demonize those whom we fight against.

It's too easy to get people to agree to fight against allready labeled wolves.

[Fusion pimp]

Goob,
Yes, I have met you.... and, you're a sheep. One of the first things i noticed about you is how passive you are. It's not a bad thing, it's just what it is.

Califest '04
I remember a bunch of us were going to eat and finially decided on pizza, you were at the back of the group and when everyone started heading out, you just stood there with your hands in your pocket, leaning against the desk watching everyone walk away. I turned around and asked if you were coming. You just sort of shrugged your shoulders and slowly walked behind everyone...way behind, as if you didn't belong. I thought to myself: "jeeez, it's a group thing, I wonder why Goob felt he needed to be invited". I'm not sure why I remember that..

Goobersheep,
Regardless of how you view the world, it *is* sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. You have leaders, followers and those that niether lead or follow, but take their own path. No matter how simplistic it may sound, it's very accurate if you step back and take a look. You can break it down in another way to make it easier to swallow if you so choose: Passive, passive-aggressive, aggressive.
Sure, some sheep will show signs of being a sheepdog from time to time and I'm sure that some sheepdogs will show signs of being sheep. But, we have another creature that really can't exist within the other two, the wolves. Sheep will never be wolves and vice versa. It all boils down to good and bad- from there, it boils down to how the good handle the bad.

Sheep or sheepdog, Goob?

B-

[Fusion pimp]

Wolf, sheep, sheepdog ignores all of the circumstances. If I were drafted I would go, am I a sheepdog? I donâ??t choose to volunteer, does that make me a sheep? If drafted, I wouldnâ??t try and get to know the circumstances of those shooting at me; Iâ??d drop them as fast as I could, sheepdog? If I saw a large man picking on a smaller one, I would step in and end the situation, am I a sheepdog? I don't carry a gun, does that make me a sheep?

Goob, the circumstances don't dictate a persons classification(for the purpose of this excercise). How the person handles the circumstance does.

[Drakona]

Reminds me of a conversation I had with my husband recently. I just got a new job--doing software work to help make futuristic bombers for the military. We were joking about this: Tom said, "LOL, I'm a pacifist, and my wife helps make bombers." I remember saying, "But you're a good pacifist: you don't think everybody should be one--you know there's evil in the world, and it needs to be smacked every now and again. You simply choose a different role. You know we also need people who stand back from the violence, and let everyone know when it's time to stop and have mercy--and that's what you do."

Not all the good non-sheepdogs are in denial; we need a few Frodos in the world [reference to the end of the book, not the movie].

That's a good article, though.

[Gooberman]

Yes, I remember feeling that you guys were so clicky, it was my first califest but many of you had been doing this for years. I do wish that wasn't the last one however, one week earlier I had just ended a 5 and a half year relationship, so on top of my natural mellowness I was also pretty down. But in general its very accurate to say I am passive, i've never found the need to be agressive.

I found it interesting that you wrote ". Sheep will never be wolves and vice versa." Did you leave out the sheepdog intentionally? You are probably mostly right about the sheep/wolves, but I am also willing to bet that alot of people whom bring it on themselves to take the role of the sheepdog, who preform the wolf like actions.

[Lothar]

I'm pretty sure I didn't actually say "LOL"

[woodchip]

I guess I be a sheepdog. Just don't say "heel".

[Flabby Chick]

Good article. I know exactly what i am.

[Will Robinson]

...But in general its very accurate to say I am passive, i've never found the need to be agressive....

I know this isn't exactly what you meant by that statement but it ties into the other points you made so bear with me...

I think it's good to not "need to be aggressive" usually it's the Wolves that feel that need. It is good to be able to rise to the occassion and be aggressive when you sense the danger around you. Pure sheep will flinch at the first sign of danger some sheep can bring out the dog when necessary.

Like the article said no one is 'on all the time'. Some people choose the role as a full time gig, some can bring it when needed.
Maybe you haven't sensed the danger often enough to feel like you are one but a pure sheep wouldn't have hit that guy when things got heated...

For me one of the most important points was to remind people that we still need sheepdogs and to not despise them for their role.
They didn't create the wolves. (Iran/Contra/CIA/Osama/Mujahedeen not withstanding...lol that was for Birdseye and Vander)

[Vander]

Just what the country needs, a bunch of wannabe sheepdogs running around, hopped up on kiddie metaphors.

[roid]

[blowing off steam]

interesting theorys. some of it really got me thinking. but a lot of it didn't.

it's almost like a soldier's theory of the world. but, we can't really call it a soldier's theory of the world can we? since intelligent real soldiers tend to learn to empathise with their enemy, and become apathetic to the labels their leaders eagerly propegandise.


by this article i'd be a sheep.
since anyone non-reactionary is labeled as a sheep.

sheepdogs don't write psychology books. why is that? because they live in the here and now. they are tied to what's real, what they can see and touch. they live for the moment. so they pray for the moment that they can go righteously kick ass, since this is where they can let loose their inner wolf - legally. this is all fine and well.

honestly, however, i will feel intellectually superior to you.

just as you feel superior to me in non-intellectual persuits. this is all fine and well.


sheep/sheepdogs/wolves. they are all interchangable. a sheep snaps, he can become a wolf. or he could become a sheepdog. it's a realistic concept that is commonly put forward in comicbooks - so i'd expect most of you to be familure with it.

we are all born as sheep - we are all born naked, vulnerable and helpless.
some are damaged and grow into sheep.
some are damaged and grow into wolves.
some are damaged and grow into sheepdogs.

either way, it's all ego. it's the ego which moulds us into the unnatural forms we all are.

no wonder we are all somewhere inbetween sheep, wolf, and sheepdog.


in summary, i can tell you that if you wish to simplify the world into such simplistic black, white and red terms. you are psychotic.
in your desperation to think yourself a sheepdog, you will commit acts that will have you labeled a wolf, and you will be locked away from the sheep - in either a jail or a mental ward.

[/blowing off steam]

[Gooberman]

It is good to be able to rise to the occassion and be aggressive when you sense the danger around you.

And this is how it should be. I think one of the main reasons we have so much violence is so many Americans buy into this article's philosophy. Basically the article breaks down to: arm yourself if you want to be a sheepdog, don't arm yourself and you are a sheep. Welcome to scaryville, I hope we can all agree that our "sheepdogs" should have greater prerequesits then a gun.

I will gladly take the role of sheep to avoid living in a society full of wannabe sheepdogs, whom are all trying to figure out if I or my neighbor is a wolf or not: I hope they get it right. If you want to join law enforcement and be trained as a sheepdog, go for it.

But if you go buy a gun and then fathom yourself a sheepdog: then in the long run what you will achieve is going to be the opposite of what you hope to achieve, and that is a more violent society.

If you want to arm yourself to protect you, fine. If you want to arm yourself to protect me(society), enlist or become a cop, otherwise expect the hatred and disrespect that will follow.

I will always be much more afraid of an armed wannabe sheepdog, then a disarmed wolf.

-baa

[woodchip]

But if you go buy a gun and then fathom yourself a sheepdog: then in the long run what you will achieve is going to be the opposite of what you hope to achieve, and that is a more violent society.

Pure malarky. You will find that the population of concealed firearm license holders (those that carry legally) are the most law abiding portion of our country. More law abiding than even police.

I will always be much more afraid of an armed wannabe sheepdog, then a disarmed wolf.-baa

Chances are Goob, you may run into armed "wannabe's" all the time. You just don't realize it....and are not afraid of them.

[Drakona]

There are a lot of ways you can divide people, and this is just one of them. And likewise there are a lot of jobs that need to be done by somebody, for the good of the whole society.

For example, if you asked me for fundamental groups people belong to, I would probably say "scholars" and "non-scholars". Some people make a lifestyle out of seeking truth, and some don't. That's a divide that's visible and important to me because I am a scholar. Some hate me for opinions I hold, and some are grateful that I'll do the learning for them and explain things--but whether people like or respect me isn't why I do it. I do it because it needs to be done, and it's in my character. Society needs some scholars, and it's a job I'm proud to do--though I understand not everyone can be one.

And so on. Society also needs leaders, and that's another divide: you can be a leader or a follower. Society also needs caretakers: you can nutrure your fellow man or you can be indifferent. Society also needs garbagemen: You can be willing to do dirty jobs that need to be done, or you can leave them for someone else to do. There are any number of ways you can divide people, any number of noble, necessary, lonely jobs that need to be done, which only a few people are willing to do.

Not everybody can be, or needs to be, a defender as a lifestyle. But it is refreshing to hear someone stand up and say, "I'll be one," or "If there's a need, I'll be there." It's unusual enough even for people to be grateful to those who think that way.

Goob, I think you miss a distinction. Defending society isn't about simply arming yourself, any more than being a scholar is about simply buying books. There is a world of difference between "I want to be bad *** and win any fight" and "I want to be prepared to stand against evil." The difference is an attitude of responsibility and service. Civilian or not, anyone who takes that attitude is doing a service and deserves respect, whether they're armed with fists or guns. Just as much as the non-academic who works to pursue truth and become an expert in something, or the non-politican who works understand and bring about change in society. You don't have to be "official" to do the job right; you have to be a servant.

The article seems a little narrow--it leaves one with the impression that the only noble thing to be is a sheepdog, which isn't entirely true: there are other things to be. But there's certainly some truth to that: I agree that it's an abdication of responsibility to be unwilling to stand against evil should it fall to you. That's an unusual message these days, and so refreshing to hear. It's nice to hear from somebody willing to honor the minutemen.

[Gooberman]

Goob, I think you miss a distinction. Defending society isn't about simply arming yourself, any more than being a scholar is about simply buying books.

You just paraphrased what I said, I wrote, "I hope we can all agree that our "sheepdogs" should have greater prerequisites then a gun."

Your mindset, is one that exists in virtually everyone. Your distinction isn't one, its a characteristic of every "sheep". You arenâ??t a large woman, but if someone was pounding on Lothar would you just stand there and hope for the best? No, you would jump in and do any damage you could. Does that make you a "sheepdog?" hell no. It makes you human. If some stranger came in and helped Lothar our with his beating, it wouldn't make him a sheep dog, it would make him human. (See, even when Lothar doesn't post I find ways to beat up on him )

We have a word for unofficial sheepdogs; they are called vigilantes. Iâ??m qoing to quote myself here:

If you want to arm yourself to protect you, fine. If you want to arm yourself to protect me(society), enlist or become a cop, otherwise expect the hatred and disrespect that will follow.

I will always be much more afraid of an armed wannabe sheepdog, then a disarmed wolf.

[Gooberman]

Chances are Goob, you may run into armed "wannabe's" all the time. You just don't realize it....and are not afraid of them.

Absolutely not. But If some stranger said I'm gonna kill you, and started swinging, I'd be afraid. If someone pointed a gun at me and said, "your the one who did ______" I'd be terrified.

[TheCops]

I don't know what I am.

Iâ??m not real big on the â??normal group thingâ?? humans are predisposed towards. I come from a shattered family. I find group mentality to be quite obnoxious, smear the queer like, dangerous, and un-original. But when I spend time with my best friends 1 year old it makes a lot more sense to me, she responds to physical attributes and her own sense. She knows when someone â??ainâ??t rightâ??â?¦ way before her ditzy aunt who will fall for bad pick-up lines.

So am I a rebel because I want to be the victim? Or, do I think you all look like jackasses in your â??sketchersâ???

I always patterned myself after Bob Dylan, Prince, Miles Davis, Woody Allen, and my brother. Everyone on that list is a hypocrite. I canâ??t touch the talent they have in their particular arena. So I must be a sheep, right? I donâ??t think so. They donâ??t have the advantage I have from standing on their shouldersâ?¦ yet, I still suck at music, comedy, and girl fetching.

Iâ??m not a sheep because I have turned down the â??easy white-boy inâ?? at a brokerage firm because I think they are frigginâ?? boring. I donâ??t like numbers for everything, I donâ??t like golf, I donâ??t like the clothes you have to wear, and I donâ??t like arse-kissing. It goes against my DNA it seems.

Never mind, you canâ??t know a man via the Internet and Jim Beam fueled this.

;-0

p.s. I must be a sheep because Microsoft Word corrected my spelling.

[Will Robinson]

..I think one of the main reasons we have so much violence is so many Americans buy into this article's philosophy. Basically the article breaks down to: arm yourself if you want to be a sheepdog, don't arm yourself and you are a sheep....

I didn't take it that way. I took as more of a speech directed towards people that had made the career choice to be a sheepdog. To remind them of their place and responsibility as well as to remind them of the other two types that are out there. Obviously you can apply the three groups to all civilians but I just assumed it was geared toward the policeman, the soldier, etc.

I see myself as someone who lives as a sheep who is completely capable of being a sheepdog and that is a role I have the luxury of choosing because enough sheepdogs have carved out a buffer around my country to ward of the roving packs of wolves. I still need my sheepdog skills because their are rogue wolves within our borders and wannabe wolves as well but I can, and usually do, leave my gun at home where it is always under lock and key because of the relative safety of my enviroment.
When I feel I need it it's there, and I'll strap it on and I'm prepared to use it mentally and physically. If I'm caught unarmed in my day to day sheeps clothing so be it, the odds are in my favor that it won't happen and being unarmed *by choice* is a true feeling of freedom. Being unarmed by someone elses mandate would be like slavery.

[Gooberman]

I didn't take it that way. I took as more of a speech directed towards people that had made the career choice to be a sheepdog

I would be more enclined to agree with your above viewpoint, but the article says,

But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

This is where I got my distinction.

[Phoenix Red]

Chances are Goob, you may run into armed "wannabe's" all the time. You just don't realize it....and are not afraid of them.

Absolutely not. But If some stranger said I'm gonna kill you, and started swinging, I'd be afraid. If someone pointed a gun at me and said, "your the one who did ______" I'd be terrified.

You're talking about the guy who goes out hunting someone to save. Heros don't work like the Spiderman movie. Just to play devil's advocate, make the policeman in the church a citizen. He continues to enjoy (or not) the service, gun or no gun, until the psychopath walks in an starts trying to shoot people. He isn't out lurking in alleyways in hopes of jumping a perp.

It's easy to say you'd help the small man in a fight. Maybe you even would. You're assuming a lot of things though without even getting into morals. Like the bigger guy isn't bigger than you. Like the bigger guy isn't better at fighting than you. Like the bigger guy isn't cranked up on PCP and won't feel a single hit you land on him. Like those "open-handed punches" he's throwing don't have a razorblade in them. Like the smaller guy won't take offense and you won't find yourself being doubleteamed for your trouble.

The weapon is a metaphor, FP's post talks about being able to cope with violence.

[Drakona]

I'm sorry if you feel I misunderstood you, Goob. What I took away from your post is that you felt the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate armed people is one of career choice. That's what you said, right? Essentially, "If you want to defend me, be a cop."

I felt this was the wrong distinction, and I said so. The difference isn't whether your job requires you to carry a gun, it's whether you have an attitude of responsibility and service. A responsible individual isn't going to engage in the vigilante justice you seem so afraid of--i.e., taking revenge before the law gets around to it. Nor are they going to haphazardly shoot or even threaten when it's inappropriate.

Drawing the analogy to scholarship (which is a more familiar region for me), what differentiates the true scholar from the fake isn't the degree or the career choice. It's the attitude of love for truth, responsibility for good analysis, and service of knowledge. Some people may make the mistake of buying a bunch of books, doing crappy analysis, and convincing themselves and others of falsehoods. You can point to cults as examples of how dangerous it is to let the common man try to think for himself: he screws it up a lot, and does a lot of damage. But on average, he can handle it, and for those who are true scholars (which most are, to some degree), only good will result. The responsible thinker is not going to wield his books in such a way as to be a danger to himself or society, and having true scholars in the civilian population is the ultimate protection against propaganda and totalitarianism.

In general, I took away from your post a panicky fear of fellow citizens who had the power to kill. You seem to think that on average, people are irrational and prone to hurt each other; unable to handle that sort of power. I find that sort of philosophy unrealistic, unflattering, and at odds with the foundations of freedom (that's not overblown rhetoric. Bear with me, I'll tell you what I mean.)

I think that's unrealistic, because armed or not, people have the power to kill each other. Everyone who drives to work has the power to kill a dozen people every day--and most people have a sense of great responsibility and caution about that. Some don't, and it's a good thing that you have to get a license to drive, and it can be taken away from you if you abuse it. But such an everyday example (and there are others, such as power tools, wall sockets or certain household chemicals) illustrates that people in general can be responsible with that sort of power, and are every day. With just a bit of technical, legal, and moral training, guns are easily something that average people can handle responsibly.

I also said that an untrusting view of mankind is unflattering and at odds with the foundations of freedom. This is why I say that: real freedoms are dangerous. No government would ever fear giving its citizens non-dangerous freedoms, such as the freedom to choose the color of their clothing. It's the dangerous freedoms that it's so gutsy of goverment to give us. The revolutionary idea behind giving the common man such truly dangerous freedoms as the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to a jury of peers, or the right to bear arms was that man is a rational animal and no harm will come from unchaining him. That is the foundational idea of democracy: that ultimately, out of all the options available to you, the common people are the ones you can trust.

That's why I see viewing man as a panicky, irrational, childish being as a viewpoint that is both unflattering and repressive. The philosophy that says the only legitimate wielders of power are those with badges is completely at odds with the philosophy that says the most legitimate wielders of power are those without. Now, I understand and acknowledge that the world is more complex than that--that distribution of power completely to the people is the definition of anarchy. But on balance, the philosophy that leads to freedom is the one that trusts the common man as rational, responsible, and moral. True freedom isn't the result of saying to the goverment, "Take care of all the important and powerful stuff for me, and leave me alone to make the petty decisions of my life in peace." It's the result of saying, "I--a common man--want the responsibility for this difficult and important task, so I personally can safeguard against elite corruption."

We in the United States are blessed with a history that bears out the noble picture of man and justifies his dangerous freedoms. We're the descendants of pilgrims, minutemen, and pioneers: everyday people who heroically rose to face extraordinary circumstances. And though we live in softer times, everyday people still do heroic things: consider the civil rights movement. The philosophy that founds our dangerous freedoms is the one that says the common man is a legitimate wielder of power precisely because he is capable of being responsible and rational. Our history supports that; such everyday heroism is a part of our national character. I think it's a step backwards to fear one's fellow man and trust only the elite.

----

Back on topic... as for me, I'm a sheep by choice--at least in the terminology of the article here. Well, not completely. I'm not a physical defender of anyone or anything, but this is more due to my circumstances in life than my character. Being the lonely defender is very much in my character--I'm certainly not in denial about the existance of evil, nor am I queasy about fighting it--but I choose to serve in other ways. Like Will, I understand that I have the luxury to do this only because others take the responsibility to fight, and if there were no others, I would not hesitate to do it.

Oddly, I could really identify with the article anyway. My immediate thought upon reading it was that I could relate as a scholar (that's why I keep drawing that analogy). It's a very lonely job, and an important one, but you're defending people from foolishness and liars, not really from each other. I thought for a while that it didn't really apply to me, though, because of the whole "feared and hated by people who are in denial" thing... and then I realized why I could relate so well: I'm a Christian scholar. That means that no matter who I'm talking to and trying to serve, they distrust and dislike me. The church distrusts its scholars, and the secular world distrusts Christians. It's lonely, but I couldn't do otherwise. Arf.

[Gooberman]

What I took away from your post is that you felt the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate armed people is one of career choice. That's what you said, right?

Not at all. I'm a strong advocate of people having the right to arm themselves, to protect themselves. The distinction is a mindset.

If you want to arm yourself to protect you, fine. If you want to arm yourself to protect me(society), enlist or become a cop, otherwise expect the hatred and disrespect that will follow.

"I hope we can all agree that our "sheepdogs" should have greater prerequisites then a gun."

If you arm yourself to protect you, then your still just a sheep. The role of a sheepdog is not to protect himself. If you think a gun keeps you from saying "baa," (as the article implies) then your living in a dream world, and will end up making society more dangerous.

[woodchip]

Here's my definition of sheep. 30 or more years ago in New York (Queens I think...Dcrazy probably can give a more exact date/time/location)on a warm summer night, a girl was attacked and stabbed to death. She was not stabbed once but multiple times. Her screams went on for a eternity. The crime was commited at the base of a high rise apartment building. Since it was a warm night, many of the apartment windows were open to let a cool breeze enter. That night the victims screams also entered. The sheep that lived there did nothing to help the girl. Not even a phone call to the police or for a ambulance. Nada. And so a girl died, surrounded by people who should have cared but did nothing.
When I heard that I vowed never to be so innured to life and strangers that I could stand by and not help a person who was being attacked or accosted by some noxious human animal. Over the years I've stuck my mug into situations where another person needed help. In all cases just my stepping up to help diffused the situation. Maybe sheepdog isn't the proper connotation as a sheepdog is constantly looking for danger to its flock. How about just a stand up human being?

BTW good post Drakona.

[Fusion pimp]

Goob,
you've met me, did you find me to be a threatening, irresponsible individual?

That question is open to anyone who's met me.

B-

[Vander]

Yes.

[Gooberman]

No, but I consider you a sheep, maybe one with big nasty teeth or something, but still a sheep.

Arizona: a "minute man" sees a group of illiegals, pulls out his gun, has them all lay face down. Calls the cops -- wannabe sheepdog.

The cops come, arrest the man for vigilantism and detain the illegals - real sheepdogs.

if you arm yourself to protect you, then your still just a sheep. The role of a sheepdog is not to protect himself.

[Fusion pimp]

Hey Jeff! Long time no speak(type?).
I honestly can't imagine you being serious with your "Yes." comment. If you are, please explain.


Goob,
You've never seen me without a firearm, none of you have. Does that make me a sheep, sheepdog or wolf?

People mistake kindness for weakness. I don't see the need to be unnecessarily aggressive, I'd much rather be kind. That doesn't mean that I can't be aggressive, or don't have the ability, I simply chose not to be.

As far as the MMP goes- The fella who pulls out his firearm, puts 20 illegals face down on the pavement and calls the cops deserves to be arrested.
There's just no need for that type of behavior.

I am a bit boggled by who you classify as a "real sheepdog". The police, because they have a badge? What about the fella whose house is being robbed and he protects his family? wanna-be Sheepdog? Vigilante?

The truth is, Goob, this isn't about firearms, it's about a mindset to be, as Woodchip put it, a stand-up human being.

[Vander]

Shawn, I wasn't being serious.

Love,
Mouthful of Grandpa

[Fusion pimp]

Grandma's got love for ya, V... handfuls.



Goob?

[Gooberman]

I felt like alot of what you asked, is answered above. I guess I'll try another route.

You've never seen me without a firearm, none of you have. Does that make me a sheep, sheepdog or wolf?

I consider you a sheep, maybe one with big nasty teeth or something, but still a sheep

I am a bit boggled by who you classify as a "real sheepdog". The police, because they have a badge? What about the fella whose house is being robbed and he protects his family?

Rising to a situation doesnâ??t make you a sheepdog. Again, the role of a sheepdog is not to protect himself and his family. A sheepdog, as the article points out, sniffs the boarder, goes around looking for where trouble may be. The sheepdogs job, is to protect the sheep. Sheep *DO* try and protect themselves. Go on a farm and make yourself out to be a threat, a sheep will charge you.

Drakona wrote,

What I took away from your post is that you felt the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate armed people is one of career choice.

And I donâ??t agree with this at all, but she was close. I would say that I think the distinction between legitimate and illegitimate sheepdogs is one of career choice. If you think itâ??s your job to protect me, enlist or become a cop. Get the sheepdog training.

The truth is, Goob, this isn't about firearms, it's about a mindset

Yes, I agree, in fact....

The distinction is a mindset.

My main criticism of the article comes from:

... if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

"Baa."

Let me try and turn this back on you. I took Judo for two years, for one of them it was just one on one training with a black belt Marine friend whom wanted to practice throwing/submitting a larger guy.

Chances are Barry, that since you view me as a sheep, you would allow me to get close enough to where I could put you in a choke hold, that would take you out and prevent you from going for your gun. Now, let me write:

"if you are capable of learning Judo, and you walk outside without knowing it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself...

Baa..."

Do you agree? All I did was tweak your article. The article, (maybe you too?), places a heavy emphasis on arming yourself as the distinguishing factor between sheep and sheepdogs, and I think thatâ??s bull★■◆●, I think arming yourself has nothing to do with it. By the same token, since I view you as a sheep, you could take out your gun and shoot me, before I would have a chance to put you in any choke holdâ?¦..everything is relative, but we are both sheep.

I feel like throughout this thread, I've been criticizing the article, and you guys have just been ignoring it and criticizing me. But this thread really is about the article...and itâ??s the article that I think is just NRA propaganda.

[woodchip]

Perhaps Goob, you should think more along the line of landed gentry and peasants. Are you saying you are more a peasant?

[Gooberman]

You don't even try to tie things in anymore do you?

[Fusion pimp]

Goob,
I can't speak for everyone else, but I wasn't critizising you.

[Beowulf]

This whole thread is ridiculous.

Stupid childlike analogies, labels, classifying people...you can't possibly break down all people into three categories. There are people who's job is to protect people. A cop becomes a cop for many reasons. A soldier becomes a soldier for many reasons. Not all of them are honorable reasons.

Not all honorable courses of action have honorable intentions. Not all dishonorable courses of action have dishonorable intentions. It's all a matter of context.

It's all ego.

[Fusion pimp]

http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~rliebsch/memo.jpg

[roid]

the sheepdogs/wolves/sheep analogy could also be:

Good Guys,
Bad Guys &
NonPlayerCharacters (NPCs)

i consider myself to be a NON PLAYER in this stupid game. opt out.

[Will Robinson]

the sheepdogs/wolves/sheep analogy could also be:

Good Guys,
Bad Guys &
NonPlayerCharacters (NPCs)

i consider myself to be a NON PLAYER in this stupid game. opt out.

But unlike a real "stupid game", in real life people hoping to go through life as a non player character can be sucked into a violent situation by the real bad guys in a fraction of a heartbeat.
Best to be able to bring out the dog in you without flinching when that happens.